1. #59841
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atriel View Post
    they can push out the .X content patches faster, and we could always see new systems in those too.
    Has that ever been the case though? Even when Blizzard mad a concious decision to increase employee number and release content faster they couldn't deliver. Could this time be different? Sure. Even when he had the "basic" patches in expansions prior to WoD things still took a while. I'm using WoD because garrisons saw expansion with the Shipyard and was a "core" featured of the expansion even if it wasn't borrowed power.
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  2. #59842
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    What happen to this extra points when 11.0 will launch?
    We keep them? They can give us as much talent points as we have talents to spend points on available. As they're going to keep the talent trees around, five points more or less do not matter when a new expansion hits.

    By restricting "new" talents at the bottom you can even prevent players from filling out those bars instantly than slowly over time when you level up in the new expansion.

    That's the entire point of the talent tree revamp, isn't it? Having one system they can build upon. And so we don't even lose progression we made, it transitions flawlessly into the next expansion. One of the main problems of borrowed power was that your character was reset to zero each time a new expansion hit while losing all the progress that was made and invalidating two years of "work" by just that. This shouldn't be the case in the future, should it?
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  3. #59843
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Also, from the wotlk classic design:



    Didn't we find datamining strings for a living world feature for retail? Maybe they are gonna add classic EK and Kalimdor to retail during Dragonflight if they follow the same design pillar? With WotlK classic serving as the initial testbed for it - maybe with a toggle for classic and wotlk Naxx?
    I really, really doubt it. What would even be the point? "No one" wants to level through wildly inefficient, poorly spaced out quests that take forever and for the people who are nostalgic and want to see those quests or un-cataclysm'd zones, there are three different classic server options they've been able to go do that on for years now.

    This also ignores that the living world entries weren't just "living world" they referenced things that have nothing to do with classic continents (proximity, weather and time of day).

    It is probably related to the stuff they've been a bit cryptic about regarding world content redesign. They've said a lot of stuff about how there's a bunch more to find and solve and stuff in the open world, they probably added a bunch of new functions related to that. Rares that only spawn in certain weather, doors or puzzles that only open at certain times of the day, etc.

  4. #59844
    Fluffy Parrot Marlamin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Didn't we find datamining strings for a living world feature for retail? Maybe they are gonna add classic EK and Kalimdor to retail during Dragonflight if they follow the same design pillar? With WotlK classic serving as the initial testbed for it - maybe with a toggle for classic and wotlk Naxx?
    Animation names are shared between all branches of WoW, Living World could just as well end up being a Classic thing (although I personally feel that's unlikely). On that note, there's also some new skinning specific animation names that showed up that haven't had a use either yet.

  5. #59845
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    No, it's not a fact. There is no such thing as a "mini class" in WoW. Classes are not defined by the number of specs they have.
    While that is true (or would Druids be the only maxi (?) class), you can definitely see that there was put way less effort into DH and Evoker than in DK or Monk.
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  6. #59846
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    I didn't count Garrisons because they're trivial, but if you're counting Dragonriding as "content", so can we count Garrisons.
    Garrisons were not trival to WoD. Majority of non-instanced content revolved around garrisons and Blizzard even tried to expand on it with Shipyards by giving us a "mini-garrison" with new resources and missions. Dragon Riding hasn't been shown to be anywhere near as expansive as Garrisons were.
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  7. #59847
    Quote Originally Posted by Marlamin View Post
    Animation names are shared between all branches of WoW, Living World could just as well end up being a Classic thing (although I personally feel that's unlikely). On that note, there's also some new skinning specific animation names that showed up that haven't had a use either yet.
    Seems to me the basic assumption here would be that they go with the new profession items.

    Supposedly you auto-switch (visually) into the gear when you are doing the profession, so skinning would probably involve switching to a skinning knife and so need a new animation that isn't just the dumb *rub hands together over body* thing.

  8. #59848
    Pit Lord Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Seems to me the basic assumption here would be that they go with the new profession items.

    Supposedly you auto-switch (visually) into the gear when you are doing the profession, so skinning would probably involve switching to a skinning knife and so need a new animation that isn't just the dumb *rub hands together over body* thing.
    Wait, you guys aren't using the *rub hands together over body* thing to cook in real life?


  9. #59849
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Okay, how does a new class help players have fun when there is zero max level progression?
    It becomes alt friendly. The issue that arose with expansive end-game systems is that you had to do it on all alts as well. With out those things there then playing multiple alts increases in viability. So when you finish on your main you can have fun with a new class and play style. That always exist in any expansion new classes or races are added but obviously being more alt friendly changes things up.

    Dragonflight has indicated that professions will offer some content in the form of quests, gear, and what not. Is it likely to be anything robust? Nope. But it is silly to say it isn't content.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TriHard View Post
    What Blizzard does affects the entire industry
    It hasn't really so far or every other game would be crap, right? People are dunking on Blizzard because it has become the fashionable thing to do. More often then not the criticism exists just to be negative. It is also strange that you think Microsoft would be any different or drastically change things up. They haven't in the past with acquisitions nor has Microsoft ever been some benevolent company.
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  10. #59850
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    I suppose Drac'thyr could have a third spec but.... can we stop with this insistence that its the worst thing ever or a "Mini" class. Just made up jargon to hate on it. Personally I would add a new tank spec cause why not, but they didn't but thats not the end of the world.
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  11. #59851
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    I gave you one quite simple idea last week how they easily could keep progression going: you can still earn talent points at max level.
    So borrowed power. The thing that they removed at the behest of the community. Granted you may never have been in support of its removal.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TriHard View Post
    Not an opinion, a fact rather.
    Does this just mean that all but one class is a "mini-class"? Because Druids have 4 specs which means Blizzard could have found 4 specs for every class as well. You are arbitrarily deciding what "full" means.
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  12. #59852
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It hasn't really so far or every other game would be crap, right? People are dunking on Blizzard because it has become the fashionable thing to do. More often then not the criticism exists just to be negative. It is also strange that you think Microsoft would be any different or drastically change things up. They haven't in the past with acquisitions nor has Microsoft ever been some benevolent company.
    Dunno, maybe MS would not give it's CEO 200 mil bonuses while firing 700 employees during a record profit year and abusing those who stayed. :v

    Also, W3:Reforged, or something.
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  13. #59853
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Didn't we find datamining strings for a living world feature for retail? Maybe they are gonna add classic EK and Kalimdor to retail during Dragonflight if they follow the same design pillar? With WotlK classic serving as the initial testbed for it - maybe with a toggle for classic and wotlk Naxx?
    Why would they add classic on retail realms? That wouldn't make anything living at all. That term is just marketing for making you feel like you are part of a world rather then just a person controlling a character in a video game. In this case it looks like it is just talking about repeatable content being different enough to make it feel like part of the world rather then doing the same thing for the 100th time.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Also, W3:Reforged, or something.
    Have you ever paid attention to the things Microsoft releases? They aren't perfect or paragon of gaming. Halo: Infinite changed its monetization model after out cry. Since the merger was announced people who hate Blizzard have seen Microsoft as some savior by simply because they aren't Activision or Blizzard.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-06-22 at 09:28 PM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  14. #59854
    Quote Originally Posted by Marlamin View Post
    Animation names are shared between all branches of WoW, Living World could just as well end up being a Classic thing (although I personally feel that's unlikely). On that note, there's also some new skinning specific animation names that showed up that haven't had a use either yet.
    I thought the Living World thing they are talking about was more metaphorical than anything.

    As in "a world where you will see other players and interact with them, instead of staying in a major city spamming dungeon finder all day".

  15. #59855
    Fluffy Parrot Marlamin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    I thought the Living World thing they are talking about was more metaphorical than anything.

    As in "a world where you will see other players and interact with them, instead of staying in a major city spamming dungeon finder all day".
    In the context of that blog post, yeah.

  16. #59856
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    While that is true (or would Druids be the only maxi (?) class), you can definitely see that there was put way less effort into DH and Evoker than in DK or Monk.
    Monk was a very well designed, high effort launch class.

    I think you could genuinely make the argument that launch DKs "three" specs aren't really any more than DH's two. By design (because of the poorly thought out 'any spec can tank or DPS' thing) DK's three specs at launch played extremely similar to each other. I say that as someone who mained DK in wrath and enjoyed the old version quite a lot.

    It's a lot like the "BC had more effort in dungeons, look how many dungeons there were!" argument. I mean, yeah, sure. There are numerically more dungeons. But also a bunch of those dungeons are just multiple layouts of the same dungeon "tile set" and all of the dungeons are just reusing regular mobs made elites (murmur aside), and most of them are just a bunch of empty rooms and hallways that at best have some objects thrown near a wall.
    Last edited by Hitei; 2022-06-22 at 09:39 PM.

  17. #59857
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Monk was a very well designed, high effort launch class.

    I think you could genuinely make the argument that launch DKs "three" specs aren't really any more than DH's two. By design (because of the poorly thought out 'any spec can tank or DPS' thing) DK's three specs at launch played extremely similar to each other. I say that as someone who mained DK in wrath and enjoyed the old version quite a lot.

    It's a lot like "BC had more effort in dungeons, look how many dungeons there were!" argument. I mean, yeah, sure. There are numerically more dungeons. But also a bunch of those dungeons are just multiple layouts of the same dungeon "tile set" and all of the dungeons are just reusing regular mobs made elites (murmur aside), and most of them are just a bunch of empty rooms and hallways that at best have some objects thrown near a wall.
    I mean the BC arguments where multiple dungeons had the same theme/tileset doesnt really work anymore. In BFA and SL most dungeons were copy pastes of outdoor area's. Freehold, Atal, Most of Shrine, Upper Mechagon, Siege of Boralus, Mists, Halls, Plaguefall, , Necrotic Wake and most of Tazavesh Gambit.
    Yes TBC dungeons shared some tilesets, but each of them were unique areas that werent available outside of that.

  18. #59858
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    We keep them? They can give us as much talent points as we have talents to spend points on available. As they're going to keep the talent trees around, five points more or less do not matter when a new expansion hits.

    By restricting "new" talents at the bottom you can even prevent players from filling out those bars instantly than slowly over time when you level up in the new expansion.

    That's the entire point of the talent tree revamp, isn't it? Having one system they can build upon. And so we don't even lose progression we made, it transitions flawlessly into the next expansion. One of the main problems of borrowed power was that your character was reset to zero each time a new expansion hit while losing all the progress that was made and invalidating two years of "work" by just that. This shouldn't be the case in the future, should it?
    I see many problems with this:

    1) Your "work" will be invalidated as well, Johnny who play from 10.2, 10.3 or 11.0 (especially) must get all this points for free. People hated even that you have to get your essences in 8.3.

    2) People won't view this as extra progression, they will see it as limiting your talents potential by grind or timegating.

    3) And you seems to not understand second reason for borrowed power: power creep. Talents from DF are borrowed power as well, but it is borrowed for X expansions. Giving extra points (how many points per expansion to keep people satisfied? 10? 20? honestly even that sounds low, now multiple it by 4-5 expansions) would speed up this creep MASSIVELY.

    4) Just few extra points after max level for talents you already have access to is boring as hell.

    5) Shadowlands already are devoided of grind (and currently timegating as well). All expansions systems power is granted very fast. Was mandatory world quest grind in BfA/Legion better than this? Or grinding M+/raids not for gear, but for AP? Now world quests are in much better place - you can do them for simple gear, collectibles currency and most important for gold - they are not mandatory at all.

    Dragonflight doesn't need some arbitraty points to encourage you or even force to do some content. Some dungeons could be gated behind X questline. Same with profession talent. For sure many places will be gated behind dragon riding.

    And for sure many OPTIONAL stuff will be there. It's Blizzard job to show people that there is content in the world, now it's almost hidden.

  19. #59859
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    In this forum there are two groups of people: People who were super hyped about Dragonflight when it was announced but are now super apprehensive due to the 2022 release date, and people who were extremely underwhelmed by the announcement but have sense mellowed into a state of contented optimism & these two groups absolutely hate each other.
    No I thought it sounded like shit off the cinematic alone and then everything else has just further compounded that. I look forward to seeing just how much people realize the Legion/BFA/SL systems actually helped extend gameplay and just how barren a vertical progression MMO is without those systems.

  20. #59860
    Quote Originally Posted by micwini View Post
    I mean the BC arguments where multiple dungeons had the same theme/tileset doesnt really work anymore. In BFA and SL most dungeons were copy pastes of outdoor area's. Freehold, Atal, Most of Shrine, Upper Mechagon, Siege of Boralus, Mists, Halls, Plaguefall, , Necrotic Wake and most of Tazavesh Gambit.
    Yes TBC dungeons shared some tilesets, but each of them were unique areas that werent available outside of that.
    This is backwards thinking. The dungeons are not copy pastes of outdoor areas, Siege and Freehold aside, they are dungeons who are designed as dungeons and then implemented into the outdoor world as an area for the sake of immersion since they're intended to be an actual space. If you're going to go that route, even ignoring the multi-wing part, the Auchendoun, SSC and TK dungeons are just copy pastes of their respective outdoor components/ associated raids.

    You'd have a pretty hard time convincing me that more work went into throwing existing ethereal assets into mana tombs than went into Siege of Boralus. Even entirely utilizing an existing space, the parts that are modified for the dungeon specifically are higher effort and more unique than the entirety of those wing dungeon sets.

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