1. #60141
    Quote Originally Posted by Veluren View Post
    I'm just thinking, and I KNOW this is apple to oranges and likely to piss some people off, but FFXIV has never needed to do external testing, and there's only ever been maybe three-four times in the game's now 8-9 year lifespan it's resulted in a bug so bad it had to be fixed ASAP.

    I really feel like Blizzard, with the money and manpower available to them, could probably do a bulk or all of their testing internally and still manage to release the game in a state that doesn't need too too much bug fixing, part of me (that might be a bit copium) wonders if that might not be a reason we've gone so long without alpha after saying the expansion was far along.
    thing is SE has very responsive testing and development teams

    blizz has devs thinking they know best and the testing teams get railed because they aren't devs

  2. #60142
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Man View Post
    thing is SE has very responsive testing and development teams blizz has devs thinking they know best and the testing teams get railed because they aren't devs
    That is just bias showing. Both Blizzard and SE think they know best. They just go about testing in different ways and it isn't like test realms are unique to Blizzard or even created by Blizzard. I can also guarantee Blizzard included it because EverQuest, the top MMO, had it when WoW was released. It is hard to get rid of it now and public testing does still offer some valuable insights.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  3. #60143
    Scarab Lord Polybius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiriastrasza View Post
    This I have to agree with, esports is just not that interesting.
    I chuckle every time corpo tries to push esports. First the failed pay per view event, then the paid spectators, and now incentives to watch streams.

    It works better hosted by small communities.

  4. #60144
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    That is just bias showing. Both Blizzard and SE think they know best. They just go about testing in different ways and it isn't like test realms are unique to Blizzard or even created by Blizzard. I can also guarantee Blizzard included it because EverQuest, the top MMO, had it when WoW was released. It is hard to get rid of it now and public testing does still offer some valuable insights.
    SE: thanks players for testing and listens to feedback

    Blizz: Tells players they are wrong and the devs have it handled

  5. #60145
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Thats an oversimplification dude.
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance #TeamNoBlueHorde

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  6. #60146
    Quote Originally Posted by Polybius View Post
    I chuckle every time corpo tries to push esports. First the failed pay per view event, then the paid spectators, and now incentives to watch streams.

    It works better hosted by small communities.
    Indeed, personally I have never shown any interest in esports or watching others play games.

  7. #60147
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Thats an oversimplification dude.
    just because i dont feel like going over every time devs or blues have gone the route of "we know better than you" just to come back later to change their tune to "we listened to your feedback and we agree" i will just point you to the blue post about the covenant lock removal and the paraagraph saying

    "When it comes to the limitations on Covenant-switching, millions of players experienced Shadowlands for the first time through the lens of their Covenant of choice, and that would have not been possible had the choice carried less weight from the outset. Nevertheless, after the conclusion of the Chains of Domination campaign, the Covenants are united against the Jailer, and revisiting player feedback in that context has led us to re-evaluate our approach. In terms of the day-to-day player experience, the advantages of a rigid division between Covenants have diminished since Shadowlands launched, while the downsides (feeling disadvantaged in certain types of content, or having to choose between mechanical advantages and aesthetics) have only grown. That balance of factors no longer justifies the original limitations on Covenant-switching, so in 9.1.5 we’re looking to provide a way to circumvent them."

    which is harmless if they didnt say since alpha "no no its meaningful choice" and in an interview Watcher said "there is no ripcord we arent going to be making that change" they literally ignored feedback because covenant campaigns. There is literally nothing else that the covenants effected outside of the campaign.

  8. #60148

  9. #60149
    Quote Originally Posted by Catastrophy349 View Post
    my alts shall be ready with all of the movement speed gear

  10. #60150
    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Man View Post
    just because i dont feel like going over every time devs or blues have gone the route of "we know better than you" just to come back later to change their tune to "we listened to your feedback and we agree" i will just point you to the blue post about the covenant lock removal and the paraagraph saying

    "When it comes to the limitations on Covenant-switching, millions of players experienced Shadowlands for the first time through the lens of their Covenant of choice, and that would have not been possible had the choice carried less weight from the outset. Nevertheless, after the conclusion of the Chains of Domination campaign, the Covenants are united against the Jailer, and revisiting player feedback in that context has led us to re-evaluate our approach. In terms of the day-to-day player experience, the advantages of a rigid division between Covenants have diminished since Shadowlands launched, while the downsides (feeling disadvantaged in certain types of content, or having to choose between mechanical advantages and aesthetics) have only grown. That balance of factors no longer justifies the original limitations on Covenant-switching, so in 9.1.5 we’re looking to provide a way to circumvent them."

    which is harmless if they didnt say since alpha "no no its meaningful choice" and in an interview Watcher said "there is no ripcord we arent going to be making that change" they literally ignored feedback because covenant campaigns. There is literally nothing else that the covenants effected outside of the campaign.
    Them having a vision and sticking with it is not the same as not listening to feedback. Covenants WERE a meaningful choice. It is 100% players who decided to "go with the numerical best", which is asinine. A covenant choice is not the reason you failed any content. But players decided they need to operate at 100% efficiency in all content at all times, which is stupid. It's the exact opposite of what builds are supposed to be.

    Blizzard needs to break players out of that mentality. Not foster it.

  11. #60151
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferlion View Post
    Them having a vision and sticking with it is not the same as not listening to feedback. Covenants WERE a meaningful choice. It is 100% players who decided to "go with the numerical best", which is asinine. A covenant choice is not the reason you failed any content. But players decided they need to operate at 100% efficiency in all content at all times, which is stupid. It's the exact opposite of what builds are supposed to be.

    Blizzard needs to break players out of that mentality. Not foster it.
    it is not about min maxing
    they gave 4 storylines
    they gave 8 abilities
    you couldnt play with these new toys because they decided it was a meaningful choice
    the testers said "hey this feels bad"
    the forums said "hey this feels bad"
    blizzard said "nah this is fine but just in case we do have something planned if needed so you can swap at any time"
    they were then asked if they were going to put in that system and the response was "that system doesnt exist and we arent going to change it"

    certain covenant abilities work for one spec but dont make sense for another but because they wanted the meaningful choice you were locked for two weeks

    and lets not forget that SL is the first expansion since WoD that you couldnt skip the intro scenario for months
    Last edited by Revamp Man; 2022-07-07 at 01:14 AM.

  12. #60152
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Man View Post
    SE: thanks players for testing and listens to feedback Blizz: Tells players they are wrong and the devs have it handled
    Blizzard does listen to feedback. Listening to feedback doesn't require them to do everything a player demands. Not to mention the conflicting demands from different groups of players. It also ignores how people complain about the things SE does as so the only difference here is your bias.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-07-07 at 01:41 AM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  13. #60153
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Blizzard does listen to feedback. Listening to feedback doesn't require them to do everything a player demands. Not to mention the conflicting demands from different groups of players. It also ignores how people complain about the things SE does as so the only difference here is your bias.
    so the devs dont tell players "no you dont understand this there is no problem" only to change it months later claiming that they agree with the same feedback??

  14. #60154
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Man View Post
    so the devs dont tell players "no you dont understand this there is no problem" only to change it months later claiming that they agree with the same feedback??
    That is not what I said. It is amusing that you think players are always right no matter what. Because that is what you are saying. Blizzard had reasons, and gave those reasons, for why they didn't do a change earlier. They listen and the modify things when they feel that the feedback aligns with their vision and is needed and other times they do not listen to the feedback and go with what they feel is better.

    Sometimes the players are wrong and Blizzard is right. Sometimes Blizzard is wrong and the players are right. Sometimes both are wrong. It happens with any developer.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  15. #60155
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    That is not what I said. It is amusing that you think players are always right no matter what. Because that is what you are saying. Blizzard had reasons, and gave those reasons, for why they didn't do a change earlier. They listen and the modify things when they feel that the feedback aligns with their vision and is needed and other times they do not listen to the feedback and go with what they feel is better.

    Sometimes the players are wrong and Blizzard is right. Sometimes Blizzard is wrong and the players are right. Sometimes both are wrong. It happens with any developer.
    i never said players are always right

    i have only mentioned the devs response to feedback as a whole and then saying "no we agree"
    Last edited by Revamp Man; 2022-07-07 at 02:02 AM.

  16. #60156
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Man View Post
    i never said players are always right
    So then Developers don't have to always listen to players which is something you've been implying they have to do.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  17. #60157
    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Man View Post
    it is not about min maxing
    they gave 4 storylines
    they gave 8 abilities
    you couldnt play with these new toys because they decided it was a meaningful choice
    the testers said "hey this feels bad"
    the forums said "hey this feels bad"
    blizzard said "nah this is fine but just in case we do have something planned if needed so you can swap at any time"
    they were then asked if they were going to put in that system and the response was "that system doesnt exist and we arent going to change it"

    certain covenant abilities work for one spec but dont make sense for another but because they wanted the meaningful choice you were locked for two weeks

    and lets not forget that SL is the first expansion since WoD that you couldnt skip the intro scenario for months
    But they were 100% clear on this from the beginning.
    Legion was about spec fantasy, an outlaw rogue, etc.
    They wanted to make rogues feel like rogues and not a subclass. So a Covenant choice was a Venthyr rogue. Not a venthyr outlaw rogue. I think, in fact, they used that example as well.

    "Choose this, not that" is a known thing in RPG games. Not only that, it wasn't even a permanent choice. You couldn't "freely" switch. You could switch.
    Because yes, they wanted you to make a choice that impacted your gameplay. This is normal. This is a healthy pressure point in video games. Fuck, it's essentially the basis of preparing spells in Dungeons and Dragons, though it is a tabletop game.

    You ain't gonna have something for every occasion, but you have enough to get by.

    Blizzard and feedback are something that can absolutely be complained about. But the covenant issue in particular was never anything more than players being spoiled brats who decided they didn't want choices. They wanted loadouts.
    Last edited by Ferlion; 2022-07-07 at 02:08 AM.

  18. #60158
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So then Developers don't have to always listen to players which is something you've been implying they have to do.
    ok i will try to do this very slowly and simply and i will use something that actually happened

    devs make the BfA cache
    for 7 months of testing it functions like X and is stated so in the patch notes
    during the final 2 weeks of testing they cahnged it and the patch notes were not updated even after launch
    players discovered the change and said "hey you did not mention this it causes an issue with getting azerite gear"
    devs responded "we changed it before testing changed and nobody noticed so it is obviously not an issue"
    9.1 hits
    devs "we heard your feedback and agree the current cache system feels bad"

    they heard the feedback already and responded saying the players making that feedback were wrong
    i also dont believe that players are always right because we have players saying removing lfr is a good idea
    i might be wrong but i havent seen FF14 devs make a similar statement

  19. #60159
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Man View Post
    ok i will try to do this very slowly and simply and i will use something that actually happened
    You may want to go even slower if you are merging 8.0 and 9.0 as a single expansion. Lmao. Again you implied Blizzard is bad because they don't do what players say but you've also acknowledged that players are not always right. So how should Blizzard decide between those two things? When are players wrong and when are players right? Blizzard sometimes changes directions and sometimes they do not.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  20. #60160
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    You may want to go even slower if you are merging 8.0 and 9.0 as a single expansion. Lmao. Again you implied Blizzard is bad because they don't do what players say but you've also acknowledged that players are not always right. So how should Blizzard decide between those two things? When are players wrong and when are players right? Blizzard sometimes changes directions and sometimes they do not.
    if something is a very obvious problem like the azerite armor acquisition being completely gutted then saying something like "it was like this for weeks in testing so it is not an issue" is not how you should respond

    identify the issue
    figure out why it is an issue
    figure out if a solution is needed

    as for 9.0
    the devs said in the past they had intro skips because they knew that experiencing the same story multiple times was boring
    in 9.0 they did not have the skip and were told "hey this is boring" the response was "we want each character to experience it"
    then it was added and they said "we heard your feedback and agree"

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