Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Revamp Man]

That is just bias showing. Both Blizzard and SE think they know best. They just go about testing in different ways and it isn't like test realms are unique to Blizzard or even created by Blizzard. I can also guarantee Blizzard included it because EverQuest, the top MMO, had it when WoW was released. It is hard to get rid of it now and public testing does still offer some valuable insights.

SE: thanks players for testing and listens to feedback

Blizz: Tells players they are wrong and the devs have it handled

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Thats an oversimplification dude.

[Kiria]

I chuckle every time corpo tries to push esports. First the failed pay per view event, then the paid spectators, and now incentives to watch streams.

It works better hosted by small communities.

Indeed, personally I have never shown any interest in esports or watching others play games.

[Revamp Man]

Thats an oversimplification dude.

just because i dont feel like going over every time devs or blues have gone the route of "we know better than you" just to come back later to change their tune to "we listened to your feedback and we agree" i will just point you to the blue post about the covenant lock removal and the paraagraph saying

"When it comes to the limitations on Covenant-switching, millions of players experienced Shadowlands for the first time through the lens of their Covenant of choice, and that would have not been possible had the choice carried less weight from the outset. Nevertheless, after the conclusion of the Chains of Domination campaign, the Covenants are united against the Jailer, and revisiting player feedback in that context has led us to re-evaluate our approach. In terms of the day-to-day player experience, the advantages of a rigid division between Covenants have diminished since Shadowlands launched, while the downsides (feeling disadvantaged in certain types of content, or having to choose between mechanical advantages and aesthetics) have only grown. That balance of factors no longer justifies the original limitations on Covenant-switching, so in 9.1.5 we’re looking to provide a way to circumvent them."

which is harmless if they didnt say since alpha "no no its meaningful choice" and in an interview Watcher said "there is no ripcord we arent going to be making that change" they literally ignored feedback because covenant campaigns. There is literally nothing else that the covenants effected outside of the campaign.

[Catastrophy349]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/blizzar...-adding-327586

[Revamp Man]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/blizzar...-adding-327586

my alts shall be ready with all of the movement speed gear

[Ferlion]

just because i dont feel like going over every time devs or blues have gone the route of "we know better than you" just to come back later to change their tune to "we listened to your feedback and we agree" i will just point you to the blue post about the covenant lock removal and the paraagraph saying

"When it comes to the limitations on Covenant-switching, millions of players experienced Shadowlands for the first time through the lens of their Covenant of choice, and that would have not been possible had the choice carried less weight from the outset. Nevertheless, after the conclusion of the Chains of Domination campaign, the Covenants are united against the Jailer, and revisiting player feedback in that context has led us to re-evaluate our approach. In terms of the day-to-day player experience, the advantages of a rigid division between Covenants have diminished since Shadowlands launched, while the downsides (feeling disadvantaged in certain types of content, or having to choose between mechanical advantages and aesthetics) have only grown. That balance of factors no longer justifies the original limitations on Covenant-switching, so in 9.1.5 we’re looking to provide a way to circumvent them."

which is harmless if they didnt say since alpha "no no its meaningful choice" and in an interview Watcher said "there is no ripcord we arent going to be making that change" they literally ignored feedback because covenant campaigns. There is literally nothing else that the covenants effected outside of the campaign.

Them having a vision and sticking with it is not the same as not listening to feedback. Covenants WERE a meaningful choice. It is 100% players who decided to "go with the numerical best", which is asinine. A covenant choice is not the reason you failed any content. But players decided they need to operate at 100% efficiency in all content at all times, which is stupid. It's the exact opposite of what builds are supposed to be.

Blizzard needs to break players out of that mentality. Not foster it.

[Revamp Man]

Them having a vision and sticking with it is not the same as not listening to feedback. Covenants WERE a meaningful choice. It is 100% players who decided to "go with the numerical best", which is asinine. A covenant choice is not the reason you failed any content. But players decided they need to operate at 100% efficiency in all content at all times, which is stupid. It's the exact opposite of what builds are supposed to be.

Blizzard needs to break players out of that mentality. Not foster it.

it is not about min maxing
they gave 4 storylines
they gave 8 abilities
you couldnt play with these new toys because they decided it was a meaningful choice
the testers said "hey this feels bad"
the forums said "hey this feels bad"
blizzard said "nah this is fine but just in case we do have something planned if needed so you can swap at any time"
they were then asked if they were going to put in that system and the response was "that system doesnt exist and we arent going to change it"

certain covenant abilities work for one spec but dont make sense for another but because they wanted the meaningful choice you were locked for two weeks

and lets not forget that SL is the first expansion since WoD that you couldnt skip the intro scenario for months

[rhorle]

SE: thanks players for testing and listens to feedback Blizz: Tells players they are wrong and the devs have it handled

Blizzard does listen to feedback. Listening to feedback doesn't require them to do everything a player demands. Not to mention the conflicting demands from different groups of players. It also ignores how people complain about the things SE does as so the only difference here is your bias.

[Revamp Man]

Blizzard does listen to feedback. Listening to feedback doesn't require them to do everything a player demands. Not to mention the conflicting demands from different groups of players. It also ignores how people complain about the things SE does as so the only difference here is your bias.

so the devs dont tell players "no you dont understand this there is no problem" only to change it months later claiming that they agree with the same feedback??

[rhorle]

so the devs dont tell players "no you dont understand this there is no problem" only to change it months later claiming that they agree with the same feedback??

That is not what I said. It is amusing that you think players are always right no matter what. Because that is what you are saying. Blizzard had reasons, and gave those reasons, for why they didn't do a change earlier. They listen and the modify things when they feel that the feedback aligns with their vision and is needed and other times they do not listen to the feedback and go with what they feel is better.

Sometimes the players are wrong and Blizzard is right. Sometimes Blizzard is wrong and the players are right. Sometimes both are wrong. It happens with any developer.

[Revamp Man]

That is not what I said. It is amusing that you think players are always right no matter what. Because that is what you are saying. Blizzard had reasons, and gave those reasons, for why they didn't do a change earlier. They listen and the modify things when they feel that the feedback aligns with their vision and is needed and other times they do not listen to the feedback and go with what they feel is better.

Sometimes the players are wrong and Blizzard is right. Sometimes Blizzard is wrong and the players are right. Sometimes both are wrong. It happens with any developer.

i never said players are always right

i have only mentioned the devs response to feedback as a whole and then saying "no we agree"

[rhorle]

i never said players are always right

So then Developers don't have to always listen to players which is something you've been implying they have to do.

[Ferlion]

it is not about min maxing
they gave 4 storylines
they gave 8 abilities
you couldnt play with these new toys because they decided it was a meaningful choice
the testers said "hey this feels bad"
the forums said "hey this feels bad"
blizzard said "nah this is fine but just in case we do have something planned if needed so you can swap at any time"
they were then asked if they were going to put in that system and the response was "that system doesnt exist and we arent going to change it"

certain covenant abilities work for one spec but dont make sense for another but because they wanted the meaningful choice you were locked for two weeks

and lets not forget that SL is the first expansion since WoD that you couldnt skip the intro scenario for months

But they were 100% clear on this from the beginning.
Legion was about spec fantasy, an outlaw rogue, etc.
They wanted to make rogues feel like rogues and not a subclass. So a Covenant choice was a Venthyr rogue. Not a venthyr outlaw rogue. I think, in fact, they used that example as well.

"Choose this, not that" is a known thing in RPG games. Not only that, it wasn't even a permanent choice. You couldn't "freely" switch. You could switch.
Because yes, they wanted you to make a choice that impacted your gameplay. This is normal. This is a healthy pressure point in video games. Fuck, it's essentially the basis of preparing spells in Dungeons and Dragons, though it is a tabletop game.

You ain't gonna have something for every occasion, but you have enough to get by.

Blizzard and feedback are something that can absolutely be complained about. But the covenant issue in particular was never anything more than players being spoiled brats who decided they didn't want choices. They wanted loadouts.

[Revamp Man]

So then Developers don't have to always listen to players which is something you've been implying they have to do.

ok i will try to do this very slowly and simply and i will use something that actually happened

devs make the BfA cache
for 7 months of testing it functions like X and is stated so in the patch notes
during the final 2 weeks of testing they cahnged it and the patch notes were not updated even after launch
players discovered the change and said "hey you did not mention this it causes an issue with getting azerite gear"
devs responded "we changed it before testing changed and nobody noticed so it is obviously not an issue"
9.1 hits
devs "we heard your feedback and agree the current cache system feels bad"

they heard the feedback already and responded saying the players making that feedback were wrong
i also dont believe that players are always right because we have players saying removing lfr is a good idea
i might be wrong but i havent seen FF14 devs make a similar statement

[rhorle]

ok i will try to do this very slowly and simply and i will use something that actually happened

You may want to go even slower if you are merging 8.0 and 9.0 as a single expansion. Lmao. Again you implied Blizzard is bad because they don't do what players say but you've also acknowledged that players are not always right. So how should Blizzard decide between those two things? When are players wrong and when are players right? Blizzard sometimes changes directions and sometimes they do not.

[Revamp Man]

You may want to go even slower if you are merging 8.0 and 9.0 as a single expansion. Lmao. Again you implied Blizzard is bad because they don't do what players say but you've also acknowledged that players are not always right. So how should Blizzard decide between those two things? When are players wrong and when are players right? Blizzard sometimes changes directions and sometimes they do not.

if something is a very obvious problem like the azerite armor acquisition being completely gutted then saying something like "it was like this for weeks in testing so it is not an issue" is not how you should respond

identify the issue
figure out why it is an issue
figure out if a solution is needed

as for 9.0
the devs said in the past they had intro skips because they knew that experiencing the same story multiple times was boring
in 9.0 they did not have the skip and were told "hey this is boring" the response was "we want each character to experience it"
then it was added and they said "we heard your feedback and agree"

[rhorle]

iin 9.0 they did not have the skip and were told "hey this is boring" the response was "we want each character to experience it"
then it was added and they said "we heard your feedback and agree"

So your argument that Blizzard doesn't listen to feedback is proved by saying they listen to feedback? I don't think you really know what you are trying to argue here. Of course Blizzard gets things wrong when players get things right. There are also many cases of players getting things wrong while Blizzard gets it right. You are cherry picking things in order to prove an absolute that doesn't exist. You've even agreed it doesn't exist while still trying to argue in favor of that absolute.

[Seasz]

Either DF is going to be very, veeery light in content or we're in for another "Refunded" situation.

[Revamp Man]

Either DF is going to be very, veeery light in content or we're in for another "Refunded" situation.

nah im assuming that instead of having a bunch of things up front we will have things in each patch
so instead of say getting Torghast equivalent in 10.0 we get it in 10.1
this leads to less of a front loaded content expansion but helps ease up on the players who feel overwhelmed while also being able to make it attached to the gameplay loop
imagine if torghast was added in 9.1 so in 9.0 people would have less to keep up with and would feel like taking time off is not a loss.