Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[zeir]

These new talent trees are so insane, people talking about cookie cutter builds have no idea what they are talking about.

[Sondrelk]

These new talent trees are so insane, people talking about cookie cutter builds have no idea what they are talking about.

It's difficult to ascertain how the talent trees will work in practice is the thing. They look one way now but without actual numbers, and more importantly potential changes to the actual classes they are just proof of concept at this point.

[Nightshade711]

I was slightly disappointed that rogue didn’t get serrated bone spike (from what I saw)
One of my favorite of the rogue covenant abilities.

[Nymrohd]

These new talent trees are so insane, people talking about cookie cutter builds have no idea what they are talking about.

See here is the thing. Sure there are a lot of permutations. But while they will allow for many possible builts, the important part will be synergy. There will be a cookie cutter. Heck if anything, the availability of so many interactions can escalate synergies to the point that only a few builts really output well.

[zeir]

There are trees and there are trees, like the survival pvp build (really fun spec) seems very straighforward but the rogues one have so many good options everywhere independently of tuning.

[Gurahk]

See here is the thing. Sure there are a lot of permutations. But while they will allow for many possible builts, the important part will be synergy. There will be a cookie cutter. Heck if anything, the availability of so many interactions can escalate synergies to the point that only a few builts really output well.

That may be true, but the addition of profiles makes swapping talents extremely easy, as you can for example have 5 different builds, each for their own activity

[rhorle]

These new talent trees are so insane, people talking about cookie cutter builds have no idea what they are talking about.

Blizzard has already said that there can be "bad" choices and that not every possible talent combination will be good. So there will be cookie cutter builds. Once the data is released they will be put into simulations and ranked. Top builds will become the "cookie cutter" ones and the rest won't.

[Xilurm]

I honestly couldn't care less about "cookie cutter" builds. People that care so much, and see this change as something bad and say they prefer the current talent system, why do you even care? Just go look up a guide and get your cookie cutter build and thats it. It's like if it wouldn't exist in the first place.

I think this is one of the best changes they're doing for DF because talent trees like these make the game feel more like an rpg.

[rhorle]

I think this is one of the best changes they're doing for DF because talent trees like these make the game feel more like an rpg.

It is the illusion of choice though. Just like the original ones. Bad options or non-viable paths is something people may do in pen and paper but it shouldn't be a thing in a mass-market video game.

[Xilurm]

It is the illusion of choice though. Just like the original ones. Bad options or non-viable paths is something people may do in pen and paper but it shouldn't be a thing in a mass-market video game.

Making a "wrong" choice isn't going to make the game unplayable. Would you rather have no talents at all?

[Ferlion]

It is the illusion of choice though. Just like the original ones. Bad options or non-viable paths is something people may do in pen and paper but it shouldn't be a thing in a mass-market video game.

A lot of the "illusion of choice" options in the old trees were there due to design issues that just don't exist anymore.

Damage of timer scaling, pandemic as a mechanic, etc.

The simple fact is there should be bad builds. And there should be good builds. But a good build shouldn't outperform a bad build by 50%.

[rhorle]

Making a "wrong" choice isn't going to make the game unplayable. Would you rather have no talents at all?

If your damage, healing, or threat/survival output declines then it is effective unplayable. You act as if WoW is a game with out checks on performance in order to do content. While most of that content is generously tuned at the casual level it is still possible to be a liability. Even in LFR you have wildly under performing players. Now think about how having a choice that limits your DPS on top of poor skill will impact those things.

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The simple fact is there should be bad builds. And there should be good builds. But a good build shouldn't outperform a bad build by 50%.

A bad build is an illusion of choice. They exist only to make you think you have a choice when in reality you don't because you should be picking the good builds to maximize your performance for content.

[Catastrophy349]

If your damage, healing, or threat/survival output declines then it is effective unplayable. You act as if WoW is a game with out checks on performance in order to do content. While most of that content is generously tuned at the casual level it is still possible to be a liability. Even in LFR you have wildly under performing players. Now think about how having a choice that limits your DPS on top of poor skill will impact those things.

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A bad build is an illusion of choice. They exist only to make you think you have a choice when in reality you don't because you should be picking the good builds to maximize your performance for content.

An illusion? What are you hiding?

[Xilurm]

If your damage, healing, or threat/survival output declines then it is effective unplayable. You act as if WoW is a game with out checks on performance in order to do content. While most of that content is generously tuned at the casual level it is still possible to be a liability. Even in LFR you have wildly under performing players. Now think about how having a choice that limits your DPS on top of poor skill will impact those things.

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A bad build is an illusion of choice. They exist only to make you think you have a choice when in reality you don't because you should be picking the good builds to maximize your performance for content.

People that wildly under perform in LFR are people who either, have no idea how to play their class, or just decide to go in and press one button while watching netflix.

For Normal and Heroic, you don't have to be an amazing players in order to clear it. As for mythic, if people aim for that goal then yes, they will have to look up guides on talents, optimal rotations, and bis.

Sorry to say but you can't expect everyone to be at the top of their game, and neither does everyone want that. People want to clear some content atleast, it doesn't have to be the hardest. There's a reason there's multiple difficulties.

Not having talents at all is just one less immersive system for people who care about that. The catch is that hardcore players have to spend 5 mins looking up guides and then they are set until the next patch.

[rhorle]

Sorry to say but you can't expect everyone to be at the top of their game, and neither does everyone want that. People want to clear some content atleast, it doesn't have to be the hardest. There's a reason there's multiple difficulties.

Right. Which is why giving bad choices isn't a good thing. Because people will be handicapping themselves on top of performance issues. So the "Good choices" will always have an easy time while the "bad choices" will barely clear content if they do at all. It is the problem with bad choices and the illusion of choice that you and others think is actual choice.

It is like you are ignoring the reason for the conversation completely just so you can complain about a talent-less game. Which is only something you've suggested.

[Catastrophy349]

After re-watching the Dragonflight Announcement video, and reviewing each of the interviews, they definitely have more planned that either: A). Has not been brought up, yet OR B). Has been mentioned but not in depth. A common phrase I hear is “and much more to come.”

What is my point? Since the announcement, we’ve been sucking on hopium/copium to fulfill our lives devoid of information. Blizzard has been pretty quiet outside of a few instances. We’ve been begging and praying for alpha forever it seems like. Well, guess what? It’s almost here. Next week, in fact. So, let’s enjoy our weekends, stop obsessing over everything because now we know when it is happening (compared to copium/hopium for the last 2 months).

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After re-watching the Dragonflight Announcement video, and reviewing each of the interviews, they definitely have more planned that either: A). Has not been brought up, yet OR B). Has been mentioned but not in depth. A common phrase I hear is “and much more to come.”

What is my point? Since the announcement, we’ve been sucking on hopium/copium to fulfill our lives devoid of information. Blizzard has been pretty quiet outside of a few instances. We’ve been begging and praying for alpha forever it seems like. Well, guess what? It’s almost here. Next week, in fact. So, let’s enjoy our weekends, stop obsessing over everything because now we know when it is happening (compared to copium/hopium for the last 2 months).

We’ll know, soon enough mind you, how much they have complete, if there is more to come that hasn’t been mentioned, and/or what type of state the testing is in.

[Xilurm]

It is like you are ignoring the reason for the conversation completely just so you can complain about a talent-less game. Which is only something you've suggested.

Because there's no other way to make it work. They can't balance it in a way that will make every single talent viable, that's impossible.

[Eldryth]

After re-watching the Dragonflight Announcement video, and reviewing each of the interviews, they definitely have more planned that either: A). Has not been brought up, yet OR B). Has been mentioned but not in depth. A common phrase I hear is “and much more to come.”

It's possible, and in particular I wouldn't be surprised to see some new form of open-world content because I remember they briefly mentioned a new outdoor content team when they were asked about dragon racing in some interview.

Since they've already taken inspiration from Guild Wars 2 for Dragon Riding, I'd like to hope that this team might be a sign that they're working on something like GW2's big meta events (its other big strength imo), but that's probably too optimistic.

[rhorle]

Because there's no other way to make it work. They can't balance it in a way that will make every single talent viable, that's impossible.

The MoP to Shadowlands system works without the illusion of choice. If they can't make every choice viable then the choice shouldn't exist, right? Because then it isn't a choice. This isn't pen and paper or a niche RPG where a bad choice can be part of the design. This is a mass-market MMO where bad choices shouldn't exist. Even more so when WoW also has a toxicity problem that will only get magnified by low performance with bad talents.

[Bsirk]

So....Alpha next week?

https://twitter.com/Zorbrix/status/1545592153392353280