1. #60701
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    Being cynical is not being realistic. Realistic approach is analizing what you (or community) hated about SL and then judging how likely is for DF to fix it. Based on informations, not "devs hate me and whole game" bias.

  2. #60702
    Warchief Catastrophy349's Avatar
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    I'll remain copium/hopium/cheerful until I otherwise see a reason not to.

  3. #60703
    Quote Originally Posted by Catastrophy349 View Post
    I understand why people are pessimistic. Look at Shadowlands (and to some, BFA (although I liked BFA)). However, we don’t even have gameplay, yet. IF after Alpha/Beta the game looks like crap, fine, I’ll succumb and get on your level. Until then, I’m optimistic because that’s how I am. I refuse to hate something I know little about.
    I mean... everything what you said can be applied to each and every single expansion. There's nothing in Dragonflight that makes it the exception to the rule.

    Bigger team? Check, we already had that before and look where it ended.

    Focus on basic systems? Check, we had that before and it didn't last long.

    Less new dungeons at first is somehow more and better? Uhm... you're still doing the exact same thing just in a different environment.

    Quality over quantity? Check, WoD is calling (granted, gameplay was at a peak during that time though).

    The open world stuff: what you said, we haven't seen anything from it. So it can be basically exactly what we have now for open world content - or it can be different. To think they'll reinvent how open world content in WoW works is very much copium though.

    I think we all need to tame and adjust our expectations. While many are already dooming this expansion, you're overglorifying of how it could be - and I'm just sure the game won't hold up to that, because it's just not possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catastrophy349 View Post
    I'll remain copium/hopium/cheerful until I otherwise see a reason not to.
    Shouldn't it be vice versa? Because I really don't see any evidence or proof to base your copium/hopium on, simply because Blizzard hasn't showed us anything in that regard. 100% talk, 0% action.
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  4. #60704
    Re: the amount of content in Dragonflight...

    Honestly, here's what would make me perfectly happy:

    • The baseline is fine. Talent trees worked out, professions are in a good state, and so on.
    • Dracthyr Evoker is fun and looks good. I'm playing a female one as my semi-main alongside my Human Paladin.
    • The Dragon Isles are beautiful and inviting. Unlike the Shadowlands with its depressing zones, it feels lovely to goof around here. Immersive, atmospheric, ambient, etc. Good music of course.
    • Transmogs and potential new character customization options are good.
    • Loot is fun.
    • Patches arrive at a decent pace, and the story doesn't move with a snail's pace anymore.

    That's it. I'm not demanding anything fancy. Just give me good basic WoW-experience for the next two years.

  5. #60705
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    I mean... everything what you said can be applied to each and every single expansion. There's nothing in Dragonflight that makes it the exception to the rule.

    Bigger team? Check, we already had that before and look where it ended.

    Focus on basic systems? Check, we had that before and it didn't last long.

    Less new dungeons at first is somehow more and better? Uhm... you're still doing the exact same thing just in a different environment.

    Quality over quantity? Check, WoD is calling (granted, gameplay was at a peak during that time though).

    The open world stuff: what you said, we haven't seen anything from it. So it can be basically exactly what we have now for open world content - or it can be different. To think they'll reinvent how open world content in WoW works is very much copium though.

    I think we all need to tame and adjust our expectations. While many are already dooming this expansion, you're overglorifying of how it could be - and I'm just sure the game won't hold up to that, because it's just not possible.

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    Shouldn't it be vice versa? Because I really don't see any evidence or proof to base your copium/hopium on, simply because Blizzard hasn't showed us anything in that regard. 100% talk, 0% action.
    You’re still missing my entire analysis/point. From everything that has been said/shown, that includes written interviews, YouTube interviews, announcement video, talent trees, and profession blog post, I am excited for Dragonflight. Is there A LOT that has not been shown/told? 100%. Is there more NOT being said than previous expansions by this point in development? 100%. However, I am speaking from MY (meaning me and no one else) perspective. From what I have read up on, I’m excited and anxious to see where it goes.

  6. #60706
    Quote Originally Posted by Catastrophy349 View Post
    You’re still missing my entire analysis/point. From everything that has been said/shown, that includes written interviews, YouTube interviews, announcement video, talent trees, and profession blog post, I am excited for Dragonflight. Is there A LOT that has not been shown/told? 100%. Is there more NOT being said than previous expansions by this point in development? 100%. However, I am speaking from MY (meaning me and no one else) perspective. From what I have read up on, I’m excited and anxious to see where it goes.
    I'm not questioning your perspective, I'm questioning on what it is based on. That's why I said 100% talk and 0% action (in regards to Blizzard). You can feel that way, but Blizzard has given us very little yet to get the feeling you seem to get.
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  7. #60707
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    Also, I don’t understand this point you made, “Less new dungeons at first is somehow more and better? Uhm... you're still doing the exact same thing just in a different environment.” Could you explain??

    We are still getting 8 new dungeons in Dragonflight (Normal, Heroic, Mythic 0). We are simply getting only 4 in S1 M+ with 4 older dungeons then the other 4 with another 4 older dungeons in S2. How is that fewer dungeons? How is that doing the same thing over and over again? In S2, you are doing 8 completely different dungeons than you did in S1?

    I’m so lost.

  8. #60708
    Quote Originally Posted by Worldshaper View Post
    Re: the amount of content in Dragonflight...

    Honestly, here's what would make me perfectly happy:

    • The baseline is fine. Talent trees worked out, professions are in a good state, and so on.
    • Dracthyr Evoker is fun and looks good. I'm playing a female one as my semi-main alongside my Human Paladin.
    • The Dragon Isles are beautiful and inviting. Unlike the Shadowlands with its depressing zones, it feels lovely to goof around here. Immersive, atmospheric, ambient, etc. Good music of course.
    • Transmogs and potential new character customization options are good.
    • Loot is fun.
    • Patches arrive at a decent pace, and the story doesn't move with a snail's pace anymore.

    That's it. I'm not demanding anything fancy. Just give me good basic WoW-experience for the next two years.
    I think these two points will make or break the experience. If they can give the Dragon Isles this majestic and massive open world feeling and if the pace of content releases (yes, Legion-like) is decent, this expansion pretty much won't be able to fail due to how basic and uncontroversial most of it is. If the Dragon Isles are just another lame ass continent in the usual sense and if the release schedule is still 6-7 months for each major content patch, this expansion will just players bore to death.
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  9. #60709
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    I'm not questioning your perspective, I'm questioning on what it is based on. That's why I said 100% talk and 0% action (in regards to Blizzard). You can feel that way, but Blizzard has given us very little yet to get the feeling you seem to get.
    So, here’s my question to you specifically: What has Blizzard/WoW done (or not done) for you in the past that has you so pessimistic, worried, and/or not interested in Dragonflight simply based on what was shown? I understand that you and I may have different perspectives and play the game differently (from my perspective, other than SL (which I still enjoyed aspects of), I enjoyed every expansion), but what’s the issue?

  10. #60710
    Quote Originally Posted by Catastrophy349 View Post
    Also, I don’t understand this point you made, “Less new dungeons at first is somehow more and better? Uhm... you're still doing the exact same thing just in a different environment.” Could you explain??

    We are still getting 8 new dungeons in Dragonflight (Normal, Heroic, Mythic 0). We are simply getting only 4 in S1 M+ with 4 older dungeons then the other 4 with another 4 older dungeons in S2. How is that fewer dungeons? How is that doing the same thing over and over again? In S2, you are doing 8 completely different dungeons than you did in S1?

    I’m so lost.
    4 old dungeons for season 1 is 4 new dungeons less for season 1. An old dungeon is still just another piece of old content brought up again. You mentioned the item grind of the new expansion's dungeons as a reason why this new system is better (?) because we grind 4 new dungeons just later on and not instantly and I just said it doesn't change anything because all you do is still grind the same items from the same dungeons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catastrophy349 View Post
    So, here’s my question to you specifically: What has Blizzard/WoW done (or not done) for you in the past that has you so pessimistic, worried, and/or not interested in Dragonflight simply based on what was shown? I understand that you and I may have different perspectives and play the game differently (from my perspective, other than SL (which I still enjoyed aspects of), I enjoyed every expansion), but what’s the issue?
    BfA and Shadowlands. I was in your optimistic position towards Legion and Blizzard lived up to it and then they released two god awful expansion in a row where they showed that they simply do not care about player feedback (or care, but react to it 6-12 months too late). That's why it's simply beyond me how somebody can be so optimistic about the Dragonflight alpha when BfA and SL alpha was controversial, to say the least.

    Blizzard hasn't shown any proof (100% talk, as I said) of why we should be excited for Dragonflight. That's why I don't get this over-the-top optimism. If alpha shows us how spectacular DF will be, I'll be happy, but until then I stay fairly sceptical, solely based on BfA and Shadowlands.
    Last edited by Nyel; 2022-07-10 at 02:44 PM.
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  11. #60711
    I think it's fine to be optimistic, there's more than enough pessimism and negativity to go around already.

  12. #60712
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    4 old dungeons for season 1 is 4 new dungeons less for season 1. An old dungeon is still just another piece of old content brought up again. You mentioned the item grind of the new expansion's dungeons as a reason why this new system is better (?) because we grind 4 new dungeons just later on and not instantly and I just said it doesn't change anything because all you do is still grind the same items from the same dungeons.

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    BfA and Shadowlands. I was in your optimistic position towards Legion and Blizzard lived up to it and then they released two god awful expansion in a row where they showed that they simply do not care about player feedback (or care, but react to it 6-12 months too late). That's why it's simply beyond me how somebody can be so optimistic about the Dragonflight alpha when BfA and SL alpha was controversial, to say the least.

    Blizzard hasn't shown any proof (100% talk, as I said) of why we should be excited for Dragonflight. That's why I don't get this over-the-top optimism. If alpha shows us how spectacular DF will be, I'll be happy, but until then I stay fairly sceptical, solely based on BfA and Shadowlands.
    That makes sense. And you’re right, 100% talk with no action (so far) when it comes to Dragonflight. Here’s some interesting information: while I am optimistic as hell for Dragonflight based on what they’ve said (again, talk not action), I still HAVE NOT preordered Dragonflight (for all the reasons you mentioned). Personally, I’m waiting for Alpha/Beta to see how their “talk” does or doesn’t turn into “action”, then I’ll decide whether or not to preorder.

  13. #60713
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    4 old dungeons for season 1 is 4 new dungeons less for season 1. An old dungeon is still just another piece of old content brought up again. You mentioned the item grind of the new expansion's dungeons as a reason why this new system is better (?) because we grind 4 new dungeons just later on and not instantly and I just said it doesn't change anything because all you do is still grind the same items from the same dungeons.
    It's better because you will always have 8 different dungeons when next season start. They will make new 8 dungeons anyway and you will explore them all first on Mythic 0. This is not confirmed, but I don't see them making 4 dungeons for 10.1.

    Of course main potential problem is season length. If season will last 5 months like S3 it will be great, (estimated 3 months for S4 would be too short) if season will last 7-8 months like S1/S2 it will be shit. So rotation is great idea, but dungeons must you know, rotate on regular basis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    BfA and Shadowlands. I was in your optimistic position towards Legion and Blizzard lived up to it and then they released two god awful expansion in a row where they showed that they simply do not care about player feedback (or care, but react to it 6-12 months too late).
    Here we go with hyperbole again. Truly "god awful" expansion won't bring people for next expansion. I don't think even you would stay discussing game that you truly perceive as "god awful".
    Last edited by Dracullus; 2022-07-10 at 03:02 PM.

  14. #60714
    They have been very quick to jump on player feedback since 9.1, more so from 9.2 forwards.

    To me, that is action, and not talk.

    Then again, to you, nothing would be good enough anyway.

  15. #60715
    I hope they will announce heritage armor so people will shut up about it on twitter. 99% of players wear random crap as mogs anyway unless you're on an RP server.

    If you think i'm kidding, join any pug raid.

  16. #60716
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    They have been very quick to jump on player feedback since 9.1, more so from 9.2 forwards.

    To me, that is action, and not talk.

    Then again, to you, nothing would be good enough anyway.
    By adapting feedback from SL alpha 6-12 months later, as I said? Hardly what I call action. But yes, you must know that nothing would be good enough for me anyway, thanks for keeping me updated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    It's better because you will always have 8 different dungeons when next season start. They will make new 8 dungeons anyway and you will explore them all first on Mythic 0. This is not confirmed, but I don't see them making 4 dungeons for 10.1.

    Of course main potential problem is season length. If season will last 5 months like S3 it will be great, (estimated 3 months for S4 would be too short) if season will last 7-8 months like S1/S2 it will be shit. So rotation is great idea, but dungeons must you know, rotate on regular basis.



    Here we go with hyperbole again. Truly "god awful" expansion won't bring people for next expansion. I don't think even you would stay discussing game that you truly perceive as "god awful".
    If they do this with the Legion patch cadence, I could see this work. But not if everything stays for 6 months. 3 months seems like a reasonable lenght. And yes, god awful was hyperbole. But that's how many players received the drop in quality after Legion. Maybe it was their own fault by making Legion so good and BfA subsequently so bad. But as we know from the past, Blizzard is not capable of the "middle-of-the-road" approach. See daily quests. See borrowed power. It's either 110% (too much) or 0% (nothing at all).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marlamin View Post
    I think it's fine to be optimistic, there's more than enough pessimism and negativity to go around already.
    Nothing wrong with optimism when it's based. Right now in regards of Dragonflight, it is not. Alpha can change that though.
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  17. #60717
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    I’ve played every expansion, admittedly, not all the way through MoP or WoD. I’ve played ALL of Shadowlands. Every expansion has had pros and cons, although I can say that Shadowlands (at-least for me) certainly had quite a bit MORE cons than pros. All in all, the game has never been in a bad enough state (IMO) for me to either quit or stop being optimistic.

  18. #60718
    Quote Originally Posted by Catastrophy349 View Post
    That makes sense. And you’re right, 100% talk with no action (so far) when it comes to Dragonflight. Here’s some interesting information: while I am optimistic as hell for Dragonflight based on what they’ve said (again, talk not action), I still HAVE NOT preordered Dragonflight (for all the reasons you mentioned). Personally, I’m waiting for Alpha/Beta to see how their “talk” does or doesn’t turn into “action”, then I’ll decide whether or not to preorder.
    Yeah, I hold my final judgement until alpha and we see how a) the continent is build and b) how Evoker works. If one of those options is truly outstanding, I'll be optimistic again. Priest talent trees were a good indicator for me of what they can do if they want. Unfortunately, the Hunter talent trees a week later let me down again. Pretty inconsistent quality so far in that regard (Druid was absolutely meh for me, Priest was amazing, Hunter was meh again, Rogue was very nice), but who knows what's final and what's not when it comes to talent trees.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catastrophy349 View Post
    I’ve played every expansion, admittedly, not all the way through MoP or WoD. I’ve played ALL of Shadowlands. Every expansion has had pros and cons, although I can say that Shadowlands (at-least for me) certainly had quite a bit MORE cons than pros. All in all, the game has never been in a bad enough state (IMO) for me to either quit or stop being optimistic.
    WoW was never universally bad. No expansion. BfA had almost completely different issues than Shadowlands (the only thing both have in common was the wack and terrible main plot). Of which Legion had none, funny enough, there were other issues though. WoD had more of SL's issues again.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  19. #60719
    IDK what's lame about the Hunter trees, I see a lot of people pining for Wild Spirits but it's such a braindead boring ability I'm sort of unsure why.

  20. #60720
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marlamin View Post
    I think it's fine to be optimistic, there's more than enough pessimism and negativity to go around already.
    I totally agree. After all Wow is a game....one definition of game is "A game is a structured form of play, usually undertaken for entertainment or fun" If you don't have fun or aren't entertained and can only complain and declare how bad it is (before you even see it all) then it's probably time you step aside. I'm an optimist...I KNOW I will have fun no matter what it is. Once the fun is gone I will unsub...pretty simple really. Just saying.

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