1. #60781
    Quote Originally Posted by Gifdwarf View Post
    Illusion of choice with 61 talent points gained every level > Illusion of choice with only 7 talent points gained every 15 levels
    At the very least, it should improve the leveling experience.

    The issue with leveling post-scaling is that effectively there were vast swathes where no progression happened.. You gained power but so did the mobs. You might get a few new abilities hitting a certain milestone but then get nothing else for 10 more levels. It ultimately made leveling just a pointless waste of time to fill up some arbitrary bar and that's terrible design.

    The squish partially helped but there's still smaller increments where no progression is actually happening. At least with the new talents you will have actual progression every level. That and lets hope they are implementing this system with future expansions and leveling in mind.

  2. #60782
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    That doesn't work for a mass market game. Toxicity won't be dealt with as its own problem because it would be linked directly to the talent choices a person picks. If they have X, Y, Z that are known bad choices that don't produce viable performance for that spec then they won't be invited or kicked out of any group they do get it. If you don't see how balance contributes to toxicity in the game then you don't understand much about the design of the game.

    Choice just for the sake of choice isn't better. Good choices is better but we know that bad choices will exist and then we fall back in to the illusion of choice. Something you may be fine with because you get "tricked" into thinking you have a real choice. But something that won't really be a choice for the performance-gated game that WoW is.
    I am mostly a Open World player. I cant wait to get my hands on the talent trees. fuck the meta, i just want to have fun with stupid builds.

  3. #60783
    Herald of the Titans enigma77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gifdwarf View Post
    Illusion of choice with 61 talent points gained every level > Illusion of choice with only 7 talent points gained every 15 levels
    So true, there is no real choice with the current talent "tree". You only ever change maybe 3 or 4 talents, if that.

  4. #60784
    Quote Originally Posted by ZyntosAran View Post
    I am mostly a Open World player. I cant wait to get my hands on the talent trees. fuck the meta, i just want to have fun with stupid builds.
    I really want to know what that "separate team" is working on for outdoor content. HYPE

  5. #60785
    Quote Originally Posted by enigma77 View Post
    So true, there is no real choice with the current talent "tree". You only ever change maybe 3 or 4 talents, if that.
    I mean if you change 4 out of 7, that's a solid percentage.

  6. #60786
    Quote Originally Posted by Catastrophy349 View Post
    I really want to know what that "separate team" is working on for outdoor content. HYPE
    Me too. But if the outdoor content is anything like I hope it is (Zereth Mortis but times 10), the package we know of right now is a unreal dream for me. Talent trees back, deep Professions, Dragonriding. This exp could be huge for outdoor content enthusiasts.

  7. #60787
    While there will be "the best" talent builds for all classes and you will probably play that while doing regular content, what really excites me about the new talents is the ability to create builds for other activiteis. For exmaple building a movement speed build on my hunter for old raid farming. Or a build that beefs up my pet for soloing harder stuff. That is what I'm really looking forward to.

  8. #60788
    Warchief Mekkle's Avatar
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    i just want evoker talents, but i wouldnt be suprised if that was last

  9. #60789
    Quote Originally Posted by Mekkle View Post
    i just want evoker talents, but i wouldnt be suprised if that was last
    I think it would make more sense for Evoker to be the first thing we get in Alpha. Like launch with JUST the evoker area.

  10. #60790
    Quote Originally Posted by Catastrophy349 View Post
    Let’s have a healthy conversation/speculation session:

    Answer one or both of these questions:

    1). What is something you “hope” we get or is better explained during the Alpha/Beta cycle of Dragonflight?

    2). What are you “most” worried about for Dragonflight?
    1. The lore behind the aspects empowerment - what potential do these 5 dragons actually have in terms of power? We never got to see them power up in Cata (Dumb Thrall) so I want to see the extent of what they can really do

    2. The raids continue to devolve into some sort of stressful skill test where failing one mechanic means you wipe.
    2.2. (Evoker being bad)

  11. #60791
    I hope they make a Dracthyr/Evoker intro cinematic just like they did with Demon Hunters.
    MS. MARVEL will return in The Marvels ✨

  12. #60792
    Quote Originally Posted by Gifdwarf View Post
    It never even occurred to me that the Dracthyr starting zone could take place thousands of years ago, then end waking up at present day, similar to DH. That's a ton of story potential.
    That most likely won't get used, lol. But it's a great idea and would be really cool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gifdwarf View Post
    Illusion of choice with 61 talent points gained every level > Illusion of choice with only 7 talent points gained every 15 levels
    The new trees are a better illusion nonetheless.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mekkle View Post
    i just want evoker talents, but i wouldnt be suprised if that was last
    Yeah, based on how much we know about the class and how much we got told about them, it wouldn't surprise me if they come later in Alpha.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  13. #60793
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZyntosAran View Post
    I am mostly a Open World player. I cant wait to get my hands on the talent trees. fuck the meta, i just want to have fun with stupid builds.
    Great for you. But that still ignores how the game isn't designed to allow "stupid builds" and will require a certain amount of performance (dps, heals, etc) to clear content. It sets up a trap for those who aren't aware and actively choosing to handicap their characters.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  14. #60794
    Quote Originally Posted by HeraldofSargeras View Post
    I hope they make a Dracthyr/Evoker intro cinematic just like they did with Demon Hunters.
    I would be pretty surprised if they didn't but I imagine cinematics are prime encryption candidates even if they aren't spoiler-y.

  15. #60795
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Great for you. But that still ignores how the game isn't designed to allow "stupid builds" and will require a certain amount of performance (dps, heals, etc) to clear content. It sets up a trap for those who aren't aware and actively choosing to handicap their characters.
    And they learn
    Wanna make a crazy build that "handicaps" you just go to lfr

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mekkle View Post
    i just want evoker talents, but i wouldnt be suprised if that was last
    There will be a blog post for them

  16. #60796
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Man View Post
    And they learn
    Right. The illusion of choice. LFR also shouldn't a place for people to use low dps, heals, or surviability specs. It already suffers from people slacking off as it is that it shouldn't be encouraged by game design.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  17. #60797
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Great for you. But that still ignores how the game isn't designed to allow "stupid builds" and will require a certain amount of performance (dps, heals, etc) to clear content. It sets up a trap for those who aren't aware and actively choosing to handicap their characters.
    I haven’t done any relevant PvE in a while but Is the certain amount of performance needed to clear content actually only achievable if every one is playing the meta build or is it actually way lower but people want to be far far above it?

    Like is mythic jailer I killable unless every one has the cookie cutter spec or is it just harder?
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  18. #60798
    Herald of the Titans Nightshade711's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    I haven’t done any relevant PvE in a while but Is the certain amount of performance needed to clear content actually only achievable if every one is playing the meta build or is it actually way lower but people want to be far far above it?

    Like is mythic jailer I killable unless every one has the cookie cutter spec or is it just harder?
    I can’t speak for mythic… but my guild has been able to get AOTC on every tier this expansion (and Nyalotha) with suboptimal builds/covenants and with people playing the “bottom tier” DPS/healers.

    Even KSM was possible with the same people.
    Last edited by Nightshade711; 2022-07-09 at 08:06 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Chen isn't a Monk

  19. #60799
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    I haven’t done any relevant PvE in a while but Is the certain amount of performance needed to clear content actually only achievable if every one is playing the meta build or is it actually way lower but people want to be far far above it?
    DPS checks are still a thing in WoW. LFR has them lower but you can still wipe to bosses because of poor DPS. Mythic for sure has strict DPS checks (at least prior to Blizzard nerfing it to the ground in order to fill Alliance Hall of Fame). The balance between the 21 talents you can currently pick is usually not that large but it could impact a dps check for a fight. You could likely over come it with gear/skill in most cases.

    It is harder to balance a dps difference between good and bad talent choices because it means good choices would always have an advantage. So the bad choices would have to be ignored for dps checks in order to provide a challenge to the good choices. Is it acceptable to make it so talents matter more in Heroic/Mythic +8? So players that want to take the leap to those things no longer can play as they did? Will the community even pick those bad talents if it means good ones give them a big advantage in that lower content? I know the answer based on how the community has reacted over the years.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  20. #60800
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    DPS checks are still a thing in WoW. LFR has them lower but you can still wipe to bosses because of poor DPS. Mythic for sure has strict DPS checks (at least prior to Blizzard nerfing it to the ground in order to fill Alliance Hall of Fame). The balance between the 21 talents you can currently pick is usually not that large but it could impact a dps check for a fight. You could likely over come it with gear/skill in most cases.

    It is harder to balance a dps difference between good and bad talent choices because it means good choices would always have an advantage. So the bad choices would have to be ignored for dps checks in order to provide a challenge to the good choices. Is it acceptable to make it so talents matter more in Heroic/Mythic +8? So players that want to take the leap to those things no longer can play as they did? Will the community even pick those bad talents if it means good ones give them a big advantage in that lower content? I know the answer based on how the community has reacted over the years.
    Well yea dps checks exist the question is more so are said checks so tight that a player playing better with worse talents wouldn’t be able to clear them even if they aren’t clearing them with the extra speed of the better talents. by design you wouldn’t need to ignore bad talents for dps checks you would just pass it but with less wiggle room.

    Ignoring gear of course.

    As far as the community goes ya a lot of people will just pick what’s ever strongest but that isn’t really relevant to the game being designed to not have “stupid builds”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    I can’t speak for mythic… but my guild has been able to get AOTC on every tier this expansion (and Nyalotha) with suboptimal builds/covenants and with people playing the “bottom tier” DPS/healers.

    Even KSM was possible with the same people.
    Ya my guild used to function the same way and we were able to clear the heroic when it was still the equivalent of current mythic in mop.

    But since then I haven’t touched any real pve. With the way the WDR works id assume talents wouldn’t make it break a group even on mythic in relevant progress gear but I can’t say I have by knowledge on if that would be the case or not as I haven’t followed any tuning parsing ect.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

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