Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Catastrophy349]

The first real minable builds are always significant, not "small amounts". What is intended to be tested is totally irrelevant for anyone besides someone testing.

It means map files for usually most of the entire continent and many dungeons (even when those zones or dungeons aren't made available). Models for a big portion of all the new mobs, animals, and creatures (as well as often dungeon mobs, and raid bosses from the first tier). Armor sets for questing, dungeon and sometimes the first tier, weapons for the same. A ton of new mounts and pets, almost certainly the entire current iteration of Evoker's kit along with Dracthyr's current customization options. The background string changes and data for a ton of systems and game aspects (currencies, titles, factions, new UI systems, etc.), preliminary names and amounts of new materials for professions along with hundreds of new recipes. It also includes a bunch of new music, even though there's often a larger music build push later on in the testing

Even when sometime isn't actually available for testing, like Torghast, Warfronts or Azerite Armor, sub-systems for those things (like a bunch of anima powers or azerite powers, or the resources involved in warfronts) are in earlier builds. Even though zone testing is often done 1-2 zones at a time, all the zones are there in the map files, even when some are in early concept stages and don't ever actually end up as real zones (Thal'dranath, Farahlon). Even when quest lines aren't enabled to play through in the build, things like dialogue are often still viewable. Even when dungeons are disabled, their map files are often still in the build, as are frequently dungeon journal encounter information.

The bulk of the X.0 patch is usually in the first real minable build. It doesn't increase, there's progressively less in following builds.

That's great, but that wasn't what I was talking about. I was strictly speaking on "in-game content" available during the first build. So, yes, it is "small amounts" targeted as I stated.

[Sondrelk]

The recent announcement for account-wide cosmic flux has me worried about DF and that Blizz STILL can't resist putting in these arbitrary barriers for alts and just playing the game. Why is sending flux to alts at a loss? Why isn't it 1:1? Better yet, why do I even have to send it? Why can't I just log on and have a pool of resources I can tap into across all characters? Destiny does this and it's way WAY better. It adds nothing to the game to keep these currencies locked to a character or that you have to pay a "tax" to send them across characters.

It's not fun, it's not interesting, and it's pretty worrying that even if they're adding the option (which should have been there from day 1 mind you), all this talk of account-wide everything in DF won't go nearly as far as it should because they just can't help themselves falling into these same trappings we've had since WoD (and arguably the game's inception).

The reason is very likely that the flipside to making things extremely easy for alts it that you make it exceedingly efficient to play alts compared to playing just a single one.
Consider for instance the case in which Cosmic Flux was fully tradeable day one. Sure it would be very convenient for those who want to play and maintain more than one character, but as a consequence you would have also made the most efficient way of farming it to simply play several alts that all funnel it into one character.
Now this would be fixed in turn by making the resource less useful in large quantities, but then you are also quite simply making the resource less useful in general, which just makes it end up useless like what it is like now all the faster.
Another solution is of course to make the amount you can gather capped account wide, but this is similarly problematic if you want to maintain several alts as the game now needs to be balanced in such a way that it considers single characters over many, which is even more blatantly alt-unfriendly.

The same is true for almost everything that is specific to a character, reputations for instance. We actually have useful things sold by the quartermaster for gearing. Rewards would have to be rebalanced to account for players gaining revered and simply buying great gear on all alts, or for that matter the question whether you will balance around alts by making it extremely difficult for single character players, or have weekly lockouts for rep farming, which feel even worse.

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Omg thank you, finally someone who understands, I love the look of the new Talent tree to the point its actually made me debate on whether to drop hunter as my main.

Guess it depends on what class you prefer. As a staunch MM main it's not great, but at least a vast improvement over the design corpse that is BfA and SL MM.

[Nymrohd]

You think in house testing isn't possible?

I would hope some in house testing actually happens before the alpha. ANd yet we've had several cases when a zone is released in alpha or beta and a quest is completely broken.

[Sondrelk]

It would be awesome if they could do story quests internally to avoid spoilers. Of course, won't mean anything if it isn't encrypted and hidden from data-miners.

I wonder whether they might be tempted to hide raid bosses almost completely for story reasons. Sepulcher was both well recieved for hiding the last three bosses, and criticized for being too difficult, both problems being solveable by making the raid easier and then hiding it.

[Kiriastrasza]

The reason is very likely that the flipside to making things extremely easy for alts it that you make it exceedingly efficient to play alts compared to playing just a single one.
Consider for instance the case in which Cosmic Flux was fully tradeable day one. Sure it would be very convenient for those who want to play and maintain more than one character, but as a consequence you would have also made the most efficient way of farming it to simply play several alts that all funnel it into one character.
Now this would be fixed in turn by making the resource less useful in large quantities, but then you are also quite simply making the resource less useful in general, which just makes it end up useless like what it is like now all the faster.
Another solution is of course to make the amount you can gather capped account wide, but this is similarly problematic if you want to maintain several alts as the game now needs to be balanced in such a way that it considers single characters over many, which is even more blatantly alt-unfriendly.

The same is true for almost everything that is specific to a character, reputations for instance. We actually have useful things sold by the quartermaster for gearing. Rewards would have to be rebalanced to account for players gaining revered and simply buying great gear on all alts, or for that matter the question whether you will balance around alts by making it extremely difficult for single character players, or have weekly lockouts for rep farming, which feel even worse.

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Guess it depends on what class you prefer. As a staunch MM main it's not great, but at least a vast improvement over the design corpse that is BfA and SL MM.

I'm an MM Hunter, I love how I can build my Hunter to my desire with the new Talent trees.

[Nymrohd]

Even when sometime isn't actually available for testing, like Torghast, Warfronts or Azerite Armor, sub-systems for those things (like a bunch of anima powers or azerite powers, or the resources involved in warfronts) are in earlier builds. Even though zone testing is often done 1-2 zones at a time, all the zones are there in the map files, even when some are in early concept stages and don't ever actually end up as real zones (Thal'dranath, Farahlon). Even when quest lines aren't enabled to play through in the build, things like dialogue are often still viewable. Even when dungeons are disabled, their map files are often still in the build, as are frequently dungeon journal encounter information.

Yeah even if the system is not available and the spells are not hooked up on the UI, they still exist. I think the only system that was being added later and slowly was Azerite.

[Sondrelk]

You still need to test questing. There are always buggy quests during the beta and letting a quest go live bugged on release is very much a disaster, especially if it gates story progression; it has happened before and you end up with huge numbers of players stack on the same spot trying to get the quest to work. Plus they need the feedback on quest flow. If you test that, much of the story will end up leaked anyway. My point is, at least let it become available in the way it will be experienced instead of through snippets of datamined content.

The main bulk of questing is likely impossible to hide, even just hiding quest text would leave a lot open to interpretation and also extremely difficult to effectively test.
Might be possible to hide the mots important ones though. Even if it would require a lot of effort to write the quests in such a way that you contain the twists to only a handful of important questlines.

[Revamp Man]

I enjoyed both the brew and the nightfae ability. In generell I think they should try to keep as many of the covenant abilities as possible, even if it's just to avoid the major problem of borrowed power - losing it after you had fun with it for some time.

I'll happily trade for tiger's eye brew or controlled Clones

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I think Fallen Order has the potential to be interesting.

The rng killed it for me

[Hitei]

That's great, but that wasn't what I was talking about. I was strictly speaking on "in-game content" available during the first build. So, yes, it is "small amounts" targeted as I stated.

I see you were unable to read the second sentence.

[Sondrelk]

I'm an MM Hunter, I love how I can build my Hunter to my desire with the new Talent trees.

That is very true. I can only hope my current ideal setup isn't going to be too bad, really don't want to have to pick Rapid Fire, and would much rather just pick increases to Aimed Shot and Kill Shot.

[Revamp Man]

Can someone explain to me what the point of work orders is? The item might aswell just be BOE, no?

What makes it different, or meaningful?

You don't have to spend the time or gold to be able to make mythic level gear if you aren't a crafter

If you are a crafter you can gain levels in crafting for free and make gold

There's also a social aspect now

[Xilurm]

Reckon there's gonna be some kind of announcement after the MDI finals?

[infinitemeridian]

I hope we get a proper expansion trailer for DF at some point in the near future, it's painful trying to rewatch the footage they showed and have to sift through all the forced jokes and talking. Here's to hoping they don't continue this format, but it seems to be the plan moving forward.

[Catastrophy349]

I see you were unable to read the second sentence.

Oh, no. I read what you said. You agreed with me. However, you started your rebuttal by essentially saying I am wrong by saying that my “small amounts” comment was wrong. I always meant the testing alpha in my “small amounts” comment so there was no reason to disagree with me of, in fact, you do agree.

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I hope we get a proper expansion trailer for DF at some point in the near future, it's painful trying to rewatch the footage they showed and have to sift through all the forced jokes and talking. Here's to hoping they don't continue this format, but it seems to be the plan moving forward.

This format was due to COVID. Did you see the Blizzcon 2023 announcement?

[Revamp Man]

I hope we get a proper expansion trailer for DF at some point in the near future, it's painful trying to rewatch the footage they showed and have to sift through all the forced jokes and talking. Here's to hoping they don't continue this format, but it seems to be the plan moving forward.

You mean you didn't like the cuts every 3 seconds??
You also didn't like the HILARIOUS jokes?

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Reckon there's gonna be some kind of announcement after the MDI finals?

Doubtful anything today but we have
Dragon flying blog
Evoker blog
Creator summit
7 class trees
All in the next 3-4 days depending on if they do the evoker stuff Thursday with alpha

[micwini]

Won't happen.

It'll be like in Shadowlands, the first month will be cool, you'll want to log in daily and have stuff to do.

Then you've upgraded all your M+ gear with valor and the only thing left to do is do your weekly keys, raidlog and wait until next reset to have a chance at an upgrade. Repeat this for 5-6 months and have "fun".

People hated on Titanforging and AP, but these things kept the game alive and fresh. Once your character progression slows down to a near standstill, the game dies.

That's not where the game dies. The problem is not really that character progression comes to a halt eventually. That's actually fine. You'd then switch to an alt and that is what the problem has been since... I think Legion or maybe even before that. Getting an alt ready to do your preferred content has been a massive pain in the ass for the last couple of expansions. So when people's characters were maxed out, they would stop playing instead of making an alt because it was such a hassle.

[enigma77]

That's not where the game dies. The problem is not really that character progression comes to a halt eventually. That's actually fine. You'd then switch to an alt and that is what the problem has been since... I think Legion or maybe even before that. Getting an alt ready to do your preferred content has been a massive pain in the ass for the last couple of expansions. So when people's characters were maxed out, they would stop playing instead of making an alt because it was such a hassle.

Nope, fuck playing alts.

Main character progression or no game.

[infinitemeridian]

Oh, no. I read what you said. You agreed with me. However, you started your rebuttal by essentially saying I am wrong by saying that my “small amounts” comment was wrong. I always meant the testing alpha in my “small amounts” comment so there was no reason to disagree with me of, in fact, you do agree.

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This format was due to COVID. Did you see the Blizzcon 2023 announcement?

It wasn't due to COVID, I think it was more to do with the drama at Blizzard so they focused on putting the developers front and center. Which I can appreciate, but the bulk of the video shouldn't be them.

[Catastrophy349]

It wasn't due to COVID, I think it was more to do with the drama at Blizzard so they focused on putting the developers front and center. Which I can appreciate, but the bulk of the video shouldn't be them.

I misspoke with the COVID comment. I didn’t mean to say it’s because of COVID. I was trying to say that Blizzcon is usually where we get this information but we haven’t had that since COVID. Hopefully, the Blizzcon 2023 will happen and we can have a better announcement cadence.

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You mean you didn't like the cuts every 3 seconds??
You also didn't like the HILARIOUS jokes?

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Doubtful anything today but we have
Dragon flying blog
Evoker blog
Creator summit
7 class trees
All in the next 3-4 days depending on if they do the evoker stuff Thursday with alpha

I’ve read/watched every announcement/video since the DF announcement. Where are you getting this information from saying that we would have ALL talent trees, an Evoker blog, and a Dragonriding blog??

[Revamp Man]

Won't happen.

It'll be like in Shadowlands, the first month will be cool, you'll want to log in daily and have stuff to do.

Then you've upgraded all your M+ gear with valor and the only thing left to do is do your weekly keys, raidlog and wait until next reset to have a chance at an upgrade. Repeat this for 5-6 months and have "fun".

People hated on Titanforging and AP, but these things kept the game alive and fresh. Once your character progression slows down to a near standstill, the game dies.

You have weekly quests and farmable max level areas for crafting mats to make raid quality gear
You have the profession system
You have reputation renown
You have open world difficult areas

I get that TF made people feel powerful and AP was a constant carrot on a stick but nobody can convince me that it didn't feel like a let down to get a non TF piece or that having to regrind ap to unlock traits on gear felt rewarding. Those systems had negative aspects that people ignore because "it gave me a reason to log in every single day" which also had the negative of "if I don't log in for my dailies today I'll fall behind"

My alts will actually be playable without days of grinds. Crafters can make gold like the old days and actually get rewarded. My class won't be half playable without a repetitive grind.

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I misspoke with the COVID comment. I didn’t mean to say it’s because of COVID. I was trying to say that Blizzcon is usually where we get this information but we haven’t had that since COVID. Hopefully, the Blizzcon 2023 will happen and we can have a better announcement cadence.

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I’ve read/watched every announcement/video since the DF announcement. Where are you getting this information from saying that we would have ALL talent trees, an Evoker blog, and a Dragonriding blog??

Normally they make a blog for new systems like dragon riding in the past. We have seen the one for professions already.

We can assume that the new class with a new gameplay mechanic won't just get a paragraph in alpha and their talents are 100% new so they would need more explanation.

Why would they only release 5 talent trees and not the rest when they have the game testing right now in the private alpha. They want the players to give feedback before we get to test so it's safe to assume we will get 2-3-2