Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Yarathir]

Another change that I see likely coming in the future is the uncapping of AoE again. Mike Ybarra himself admitted he disliked the AoE cap change so I think it's only a matter of when, not if. Might not arrive until 9.2 since they'll probably need more time, since that sort of change requires a hefty rebalancing of content. Maybe not until 10.0, actually.

But I think it is coming, and it'll be a welcome return.

At the very least I'd like them to be more consistent about it.

Ahem Balance Druids.

[Sondrelk]

Another change that I see likely coming in the future is the uncapping of AoE again. Mike Ybarra himself admitted he disliked the AoE cap change so I think it's only a matter of when, not if. Might not arrive until 9.2 since they'll probably need more time, since that sort of change requires a hefty rebalancing of content. Maybe not until 10.0, actually.

But I think it is coming, and it'll be a welcome return.

Please no, it's the one thing keeping M+ pulls somewhat reasonable.
Noone needs mass AoE like that constantly. And it's far better if uncapped AoE like that is reserved for abilities that deserve it rather than being given to everything.

[TomatoBisque]

Please no, it's the one thing keeping M+ pulls somewhat reasonable.
Noone needs mass AoE like that constantly. And it's far better if uncapped AoE like that is reserved for abilities that deserve it rather than being given to everything.

then they should just do square root scaling for all rather than the current situation where some classes are just better because they're uncapped

[Sondrelk]

then they should just do square root scaling for all rather than the current situation where some classes are just better because they're uncapped

Just so long as it doesnt go back to the time when M+ was decided by who had the most uncapped AoE potential.

I much prefer this version where the classes with uncapped AoE potential is exemplified by it, not just someone that has such massive DPS potential incidentally.

[Black Rider]

Did you guys discuss it?
https://old.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...ctually_means/

[Sondrelk]

Did you guys discuss it?
https://old.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...ctually_means/

Marlamin mentioned how it might have been a scrapped idea for a classless version of the character that might be used in a hypothetical version of character creation that let you play around with a character before deciding the class.
Hypothetically a version of this might bed that you run around on Exile's reach for a bit doing extremely basic combat before a screen pops up that lets you choose.

No wa yof knowing of course, but the small amounts of facts surrounding the class seems to support it.

- - - Updated - - -

For that matter it could also have been intended as a mechanic in a quest sometime that actually physically took your class way for something. Maybe back to Exile's reach you started with your class, then had to play a really basic class before you found someone that could revert you to your preferred class.

[SunspotAnims]

Did you guys discuss it?
https://old.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...ctually_means/

My preferred theory is that it's a scrapped concept from Exile's Reach where new characters would start classless ("survivor") and be required to pick a class during the zone.

[Edward Wu]

https://twitter.com/WatcherDev/statu...61470685802498

Ion confirmed still alive.

[Hitei]

People always talk about big set piece stuff when it comes to a revamp, but rarely talk about the actual new storylines and quests. Like if the revamp is themed around the building and healing that has happened since the Cataclysm hit and wrecked everything, what does questing look like in zones like Westfall which is now just a a regular region of farmers, or the Burning Steppes and Searing Gorge where most of the enemy forces (Black Dragons, Dark Iron, Blackrock) have become allies of the Horde/Alliance.

The Scourge has been all but completely removed from the north end of the Eastern Kingdoms, and the Forsaken are now pushed out (and not dicks) so what's questing through the plageulands gonna be?
Surely they can't make STV about the Gurubashi, Bloodsail and Kurzen's forces for a third time? In a bunch of the zones the only real conflict was the other faction (Stonetalon, Ashenvale, Silverpine, Hillsbrad, Southern Barrens) so without the war those are just peaceful areas rebuilding. Several major threats no longer exist in any organized capacity (See the above lack of Scourge and Cult of the Damned, but also the Naga have been routed and Azshara left to go do void shit, the Legion has been all but shattered and now the world has a population of Demon Hunters integrated into the Horde and Alliance).

Is a revamp just gonna be even worse than Cata about most zones being one evil forces? Like replace all the Twilight's Hammer with void invaders but in even more zones.

[rainhard]

If the horde do get the Venthyr as an allied race would the alliance get the Kyrian or maybe the Sylvar?

[huth]

https://twitter.com/WatcherDev/statu...61470685802498

Ion confirmed still alive.

This was a triumph



Not sure where people got the idea that he wasn't. Guess they let their wants get the better of their judgement.

[Hitei]

If the horde do get the Venthyr as an allied race would the alliance get the Kyrian or maybe the Sylvar?

I can't think of two more generic races for the Alliance to get than turbodruids and turbo goodboypaladinpriests. Like at least give the Horde the Necrolords because strength and honor and the Alliance the Venthyr because punishing the wicked.

[Sondrelk]

People always talk about big set piece stuff when it comes to a revamp, but rarely talk about the actual new storylines and quests. Like if the revamp is themed around the building and healing that has happened since the Cataclysm hit and wrecked everything, what does questing look like in zones like Westfall which is now just a a regular region of farmers, or the Burning Steppes and Searing Gorge where most of the enemy forces (Black Dragons, Dark Iron, Blackrock) have become allies of the Horde/Alliance.

The Scourge has been all but completely removed from the north end of the Eastern Kingdoms, and the Forsaken are now pushed out (and not dicks) so what's questing through the plageulands gonna be?
Surely they can't make STV about the Gurubashi, Bloodsail and Kurzen's forces for a third time? In a bunch of the zones the only real conflict was the other faction (Stonetalon, Ashenvale, Silverpine, Hillsbrad, Southern Barrens) so without the war those are just peaceful areas rebuilding. Several major threats no longer exist in any organized capacity (See the above lack of Scourge and Cult of the Damned, but also the Naga have been routed and Azshara left to go do void shit, the Legion has been all but shattered and now the world has a population of Demon Hunters integrated into the Horde and Alliance).

Is a revamp just gonna be even worse than Cata about most zones being one evil forces? Like replace all the Twilight's Hammer with void invaders but in even more zones.

Each zone has a specific flavour to it that players associate with it. It's really as simple as looking at it and asking what the logical next step could be.

The Plaguelands was all about removing Scourge influence, but in its absence you can continue the plotline that Cata started. The last malignance of the plague of ubdeath, the Forsaken and Human relations.
Make a storyline about the Forsaken and Humans wanting to retake Stratholme against the backdrop of hidden pockets of scourge and Scarlet crusade and you have an epic zone spanning storyline right there.


Another is finding a lost plot thread, or better yet a plot thread added since and go from there.

Feralas is all about jungle stuff, Botani is all about unchecked growth. And with the end of the Maghar questline there are Botani somewhere on Kalimdor.
The story essentially writes itself.


Lastly, if a zone is lacking a storyline then you could integrate the zone to be half the questline that is relevant in a zone near it.

Badlands is really lacking as a zone. But it does have some Titan stuff. And with the neighbouring zone being the burning steppes it is easy to see how you could combine the badlands with the Dark Iron zones to make a greater plotline about the ressurection of Ragnaros storyline that was shown in the DI Dwarf questline.

[Hitei]

Each zone has a specific flavour to it that players associate with it. It's really as simple as looking at it and asking what the logical next step could be.

The Plaguelands was all about removing Scourge influence, but in its absence you can continue the plotline that Cata started. The last malignance of the plague of ubdeath, the Forsaken and Human relations.
Make a storyline about the Forsaken and Humans wanting to retake Stratholme against the backdrop of hidden pockets of scourge and Scarlet crusade and you have an epic zone spanning storyline right there.


Another is finding a lost plot thread, or better yet a plot thread added since and go from there.

Feralas is all about jungle stuff, Botani is all about unchecked growth. And with the end of the Maghar questline there are Botani somewhere on Kalimdor.
The story essentially writes itself.


Lastly, if a zone is lacking a storyline then you could integrate the zone to be half the questline that is relevant in a zone near it.

Badlands is really lacking as a zone. But it does have some Titan stuff. And with the neighbouring zone being the burning steppes it is easy to see how you could combine the badlands with the Dark Iron zones to make a greater plotline about the ressurection of Ragnaros storyline that was shown in the DI Dwarf questline.

Yeah but that's sort of my point. You can say something like the Plaguelands will be about "Forsaken and Human relations", but what does that actually mean for narrative and questflow? There's no war anymore. There's no reason for the Argents to not get along perfectly well with Alonsus, a well respected priest, Calia, the same, and Voss, a person who single-handedly dealt massive blows to both the Scarlets and Cult of the Damned.

There's not much tension there, and even if the Alliance wanted to take Stratholme (it seems unlikely that anyone would push for this against the will of the Forsaken under Voss and Calia's leadership) that would be the realm of diplomatic disputes and letters between Voss, Calia, Anduin(Turalyon?) and Genn, not really questing content for the player.

I can't imagine Scarlet sleeper agents and a tiny Scarlet guerilla force are going to occupy both Plaguelands, let alone Tirisfal AND Silverpine which are pretty much the same but with Gilneans thrown in on the human side.

I agree Botani works great, for one zone. But if Feralas is your Botani zone, now what are you going to do in Desolace (which is also just overgrowth) or Barrens (the same). Similarly, I really don't see how Ragnaros' ressurection can occupy Burning Steppes AND Searing Gorge AND part of the badlands, especially not without just seeming like it was barely revamped at all since it's just more fire and ragnaros worshiping, much like the previous two iterations.


Just kinda already worried a revamp is going to be me fighting Scarlet Crusders and ghouls in the Plaguelands for a third time.

[Sondrelk]

Yeah but that's sort of my point. You can say something like the Plaguelands will be about "Forsaken and Human relations", but what does that actually mean for narrative and questflow? There's no war anymore. There's no reason for the Argents to not get along perfectly well with Alonsus, a well respected priest, Calia, the same, and Voss, a person who single-handedly dealt massive blows to both the Scarlets and Cult of the Damned.

There's not much tension there, and even if the Alliance wanted to take Stratholme (it seems unlikely that anyone would push for this against the will of the Forsaken under Voss and Calia's leadership) that would be the realm of diplomatic disputes and letters between Voss, Calia, Anduin(Turalyon?) and Genn, not really questing content for the player.

I can't imagine Scarlet sleeper agents and a tiny Scarlet guerilla force are going to occupy both Plaguelands, let alone Tirisfal AND Silverpine which are pretty much the same but with Gilneans thrown in on the human side.

I agree Botani works great, for one zone. But if Feralas is your Botani zone, now what are you going to do in Desolace (which is also just overgrowth) or Barrens (the same). Similarly, I really don't see how Ragnaros' ressurection can occupy Burning Steppes AND Searing Gorge AND part of the badlands, especially not without just seeming like it was barely revamped at all since it's just more fire and ragnaros worshiping, much like the previous two iterations.


Just kinda already worried a revamp is going to be me fighting Scarlet Crusders and ghouls in the Plaguelands for a third time.

Questlines can make quests from seemingly nothing.

You start by entering Andorhal. Initial quests are simply on familiarizing yourself with the quest hub. You are then given 4 mini questline to follow. One takes you to a farm that needs help defeating gophers and such. Another to the logging camp near Hearthglen, one has you find and defeat bandits and one is a courier quest that leads into the greater intrigue on the Scarlets.

The questline then sends you to for for scarlet remnants. Part of that is going to old mines and looking for clues in Hearthglen, part is finding camps and defeating them.

Sprinkle in a few filler quests as well. Finding hidden Scarlet propaganda requires a special potion, so you need to run around to find it. Go near a mine and you find someone talks about defeating spiders in it.

Questline then takes you to the Eastern Plaguelands.

Reintroducing wildlife has had detrimental effects, go around culling a few.
Crypt duty, go into the old crypts and clear them of undead.

Questlines to help settlers determine if a place is safe to assume inhabit. Maybe a longer questline about retaking the larger village outside Lights Hope chapel with the refugees.

Complete the smaller quests and you get to Stratholme. The Scarlet crusade has entered the city. You need to go around and find a way to get inside.
Several quests can be made from finding lower level lieutenants, finding people to help you, varying methods between the humans and forsaken on how to retake the city. Maybe the forsaken are willing to bought it to remove the crusaders to make it easy but forcing them to wait longer, and the humans want to risk lives but get back faster.

End the entire thing with a dungeon in Stratholme.


If the idea of scarlet crusaders are too far fetched then you could make it nearly anything.
Cult of the damned.
Fanatic necromancers.
Rogue Scourge.
Human or Forsaken radicals.

Loads of options of villains. And once you have something basic like that you can make quests from basically nothing.

[Hitei]

Questlines can make quests from seemingly nothing.

You start by entering Andorhal. Initial quests are simply on familiarizing yourself with the quest hub. You are then given 4 mini questline to follow. One takes you to a farm that needs help defeating gophers and such. Another to the logging camp near Hearthglen, one has you find and defeat bandits and one is a courier quest that leads into the greater intrigue on the Scarlets.

The questline then sends you to for for scarlet remnants. Part of that is going to old mines and looking for clues in Hearthglen, part is finding camps and defeating them.

Sprinkle in a few filler quests as well. Finding hidden Scarlet propaganda requires a special potion, so you need to run around to find it. Go near a mine and you find someone talks about defeating spiders in it.

Questline then takes you to the Eastern Plaguelands.

Reintroducing wildlife has had detrimental effects, go around culling a few.
Crypt duty, go into the old crypts and clear them of undead.

Questlines to help settlers determine if a place is safe to assume inhabit. Maybe a longer questline about retaking the larger village outside Lights Hope chapel with the refugees.

Complete the smaller quests and you get to Stratholme. The Scarlet crusade has entered the city. You need to go around and find a way to get inside.
Several quests can be made from finding lower level lieutenants, finding people to help you, varying methods between the humans and forsaken on how to retake the city. Maybe the forsaken are willing to bought it to remove the crusaders to make it easy but forcing them to wait longer, and the humans want to risk lives but get back faster.

End the entire thing with a dungeon in Stratholme.


If the idea of scarlet crusaders are too far fetched then you could make it nearly anything.
Cult of the damned.
Fanatic necromancers.
Rogue Scourge.
Human or Forsaken radicals.

Loads of options of villains. And once you have something basic like that you can make quests from basically nothing.

It's not that scarlets are far-fetched, it's that none of that is really a zone-spanning storyline. Like that would be plenty for a sparse vanilla zone but can you really see the bolded as being the entirety of the main quest chain for WPL? You get there, get sent to take care of some bandits, one drops info and leads to a mine that needs some item which you build and then enter and it breadcrumbs out of the zone? I'm not faulting your attempt here, it's just that.. that's the problem with a whole bunch of Vanilla zones, there's not really much organic story in them in the current narrative line, and even now we're talking about fighting the exact same enemies that WPL has had for approaching 20 years, with those enemies already have been bested twice before.

Like is that what people want out a revamp? Killing rogue scourge in EPL/WPL but the zone is greener, or killing "fanatic" Dark Irons in Searing Gorge who are loyal to Ragnaros? Without employing a timeskip or having vary serious change happen to zones, like the Scarlets attempting to forge Ashbringer yet again and instead summoning a massive wave of Light Elementals / hostile Naaru with the light completely scorching the zone into a burnt waste a la the Ember Ward... aren't zones going to be pretty much the exact same thing?

Cata sort of hinged on the new zones being new and then a handful of zones getting really huge changes (Southern Barrens, Azshara, Darkshore, Thousand Needles, Silverpine, WPL/EPL, Badlands, while the rest of the zones sort of fell by the wayside or were just slightly changed versions of the old zones. But this revamp is set to be all about building up existing structures and healing things back to normal, not tearing things down which is what gets you drastic and wild change, and I don't know what new zones they would (Dragon Isles continent in addition to the revamp? A handful of scattered zones like Tel'abim and Undermine?)

[Nagawithlegs]

I can't think of two more generic races for the Alliance to get than turbodruids and turbo goodboypaladinpriests. Like at least give the Horde the Necrolords because strength and honor and the Alliance the Venthyr because punishing the wicked.

Imagine the reaction when the Venthyr join the Horde SOLELY to police them/make sure it doesn’t produce another Sylvanas.

[Hitei]

Imagine the reaction when the Venthy join the Horde SOLELY to police them/make sure it doesn’t produce another Sylvanas.

Vampire police would be pretty sweet.

[Nagawithlegs]

It would produce the least butthurt to pick all 4 as neutral races but I could see Blizz assigning them to factions to give them separate appeal.

That being said, regardless of where they go Blizzard is definitely going to introduce some big Neutrality type of mode that lets the factions hang out, so this may undercut some butthurt if they become faction specific.

[therumblings]

Taliesin's idea of having the option for your character turn into one of the four races at the end of the shadowlands campaigns was an interesting idea. I'm personally not a fan of it and would prefer them to just be playable races you start from scratch on, but it's definitely an unique take on them.