Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Cosmic Janitor]

Death is already meaningless when the veil between life and the afterlife has been shattered, characters can travel to Oribos with a portal, as seen from random Elwynn NPCs being there, and also the one in Icecrown. Also, what's the issue with wings? Characters can already transmog pretty hefty backpieces, including wings. Wings wouldn't affect mounts or transmogging gearslots either, and even if they did, mechagnomes set a precedent that Blizzard is perfectly fine with literally banning players from transmogging certain slots.

The tiny flaps on your back are hardly wings. Certainly compared to actual winged creatures. You definitely won't get to play an ascended Kyrian, so I see no reason to futilly pretend otherwise.

It's also still quite a difference if people can leave the shadowlands villy nilly or only on special missions. Right now we are still in a setting where the dead, after being ready to ascend, can visit the mortal plane while sticking to the veil and grab some souls (as seen during the Kyrian quests) or in the case of maldraxxi infilitrate other cosmic domains by as yet unknown means.

Them just traipsing around on Azeroth is quite different, even if every mortal could come and shake hands with their ancestors in oribos. So far the portrayal is different though. Not every westfall farmer is actually a maw walker that now also can resurrect like a legion demon. Even with the dodgy state of the shadowlands as it is, the only people running around oribos are high ranking people in the factions and the forces of the ebon blade. Exchanges between oribos and the shadowlands realms are even more rare. For all the gaping plot holes of the shadowlands, even Blizzard hasn't gone that far yet and frankly even with all the half-assing Blizzard does, even they are probably not fond of going that far.

[therumblings]

The tiny flaps on your back are hardly wings. Certainly compared to actual winged creatures. You definitely won't get to play an ascended Kyrian, so I see no reason to futilly pretend otherwise.

You've yet to give a reason as to why. Wings do not interfere with combat, transmog, or mounting.

the only people running around oribos are high ranking people

Not sure if you count them as high ranking, their only lore of note is appearing at the gathering in Arathi, and running around Stormwind for 15 years.

[Sondrelk]

You've yet to give a reason as to why. Wings do not interfere with combat, transmog, or mounting.






Not sure if you count them as high ranking, their only lore of note is appearing at the gathering in Arathi, and running around Stormwind for 15 years.

Philia is supposedly a decently high ranking Kirin Tor mage from what I believe, certainly at least enough so to be able to get into wherever the portal is. And Emma is coming along with her.

She doesn't seem to be a massively important person, but she is at least high ranking enough, or has the skills needed to make the trip.

Griftah being in Oribos is far, far worse as far as lore breaches go.

[therumblings]

Griftah being in Oribos is far, far worse as far as lore breaches go.

Oh lol I entirely forgot about that. Well, at least he brought soap on a rope to the people of the Shadowlands.

[Cosmic Janitor]

You've yet to give a reason as to why. Wings do not interfere with combat, transmog, or mounting.

Maybe I'm just too old school, but it's kinda an unwritten rule of RPGs that you don't hand out angel/flying races without some downsides. It's essentially a variation of the old star wars galaxy jedi problem. Who plays some scrub smuggler when you can play the race of superhumans. It would also definitely cause issues with back sheating and capes. Even Blizzard, who infamously doesn't care for clipping, does let you use the kyrian wings and sheated weapons right now. While the solution seems similar, it would be kinda odd that kyrian don't get to have 2h weapons on their backs ever, which feels quite the step up from the missing pants of diapergnomes.

I mean maybe I'm just odd, but I definitely wonder who here would honestly think we'd be getting ascended kyrians. Or for that matter, Stoneborn.

[therumblings]

Maybe I'm just too old school, but it's kinda an unwritten rule of RPGs that you don't hand out angel/flying races without some downsides. It's essentially a variation of the old star wars galaxy jedi problem. Who plays some scrub smuggler when you can play the race of superhumans. It would also definitely cause issues with back sheating and capes. Even Blizzard, who infamously doesn't care for clipping, does let you use the kyrian wings and sheated weapons right now. While the solution seems similar, it would be kinda odd that kyrian don't get to have 2h weapons on their backs ever, which feels quite the step up from the missing pants of diapergnomes.

I mean maybe I'm just odd, but I definitely wonder who here would honestly think we'd be getting ascended kyrians. Or for that matter, Stoneborn.

They could also just use hip sheathes, or just remove the sheathing all together, or put the effort in to make back sheathing work. Either way I don't think it's a big deal, but worst case scenario they could just give regular non-ascended Kyrians.

[Edoll]

They could also just use hip sheathes, or just remove the sheathing all together, or put the effort in to make back sheathing work. Either way I don't think it's a big deal, but worst case scenario they could just give regular non-ascended Kyrians.

Or just make the wings a racial mount, like running wild. Playable kyrianz could fly free or whatever.

[therumblings]

Or just make the wings a racial mount, like running wild. Playable kyrianz could fly free or whatever.

That's also a great idea. They said they didn't wanna do that for Demon Hunters IIRC, which they should still do, but that would also work great for Kyrians.

[Gaidax]

I just hope that in 10.0 when Blizzard will inevitably come up with yet another bunch of bullshit system riddled with limitations that make little actual gameplay sense, they will take a deep breath somewhere mid-Alpha, step back and think what these limitations will do 3 months after launch, when honeymoon season dries up and players start looking for something to do.

9.1.5 should have been 9.0.5. And some of 9.0.5 stuff should have simply been there from launch. What's most shocking is how they try to hide behind lore to rationalize covenant limitations, what happened to "Gameplay first"???

So my wish for 10.0 is that its inevitable 10.1.5 will be 10.0.5 or even preferably 10.0 from the get go.

[Cosmic Janitor]

I just hope that in 10.0 when Blizzard will inevitably come up with yet another bunch of bullshit system riddled with limitations that make little actual gameplay sense, they will take a deep breath somewhere mid-Alpha, step back and think what these limitations will do 3 months after launch, when honeymoon season dries up and players start looking for something to do.

9.1.5 should have been 9.0.5. And some of 9.0.5 stuff should have simply been there from launch. What's most shocking is how they try to hide behind lore to rationalize covenant limitations, what happened to "Gameplay first"???

So my wish for 10.0 is that its inevitable 10.1.5 will be 10.0.5 or even preferably 10.0 from the get go.

That part of the announcment has really gotten to you, eh?

Anyway, I agree, very much like the first two times back in legion and then twice or thrice in BfA and now once again in SL, it would be nice if the obvious weaknesses of these systems could be addressed right off the bat. The fix should get worked into the base game. If covenants had unlocked after the original campaign everything would have been mostly fine in that regard, even if it would still have been annoying time gating. Nothing in 9.1 was needed to make it plausible now.

I mean everyone with more than 2 brain cells can see that this is all done on purporse, it would be nice if they finally learned from this and would stop trying to fuck people over on purpose until they reach the breaking point. Alas, I don't believe this was actually the point where they learned. While it clearly happened sooner than in the past (at least for an expansion long feature like covenants), it's also clearly motivated by the current state of the games population. And I'm surely not the only person that would think that Blizzard simply missed their breaking point window on covenants by about half a year. If they had hit it properly, they might have gotten away with that aspect at least.

[scubi666stacy]

I just hope that in 10.0 when Blizzard will inevitably come up with yet another bunch of bullshit system riddled with limitations that make little actual gameplay sense, they will take a deep breath somewhere mid-Alpha, step back and think what these limitations will do 3 months after launch, when honeymoon season dries up and players start looking for something to do.

9.1.5 should have been 9.0.5. And some of 9.0.5 stuff should have simply been there from launch. What's most shocking is how they try to hide behind lore to rationalize covenant limitations, what happened to "Gameplay first"???

So my wish for 10.0 is that its inevitable 10.1.5 will be 10.0.5 or even preferably 10.0 from the get go.

Its the same shallow excuse we get regarding to flying. We could get it at max level, but they instead timegate flying until its of almost no value anymore but for leveling / catching up with alts.

[Sondrelk]

Its the same shallow excuse we get regarding to flying. We could get it at max level, but they instead timegate flying until its of almost no value anymore but for leveling / catching up with alts.

We don't get flying immediately because the current version of flying is antithetical to actual gameplay.
Even basic things like roads are pointless if you can simply mount up and use autorun while you alt-tab out of the game.

No flying means we get more room for stuff like teleporters and limited flight to shine instead of immediately being overshadowed by an infinitely better movement option.

Even flight points are overshadowed by flying. At this point the only use they really have is due to Blizzard making them required for traversal between zones, and without that the only realistic use for them is if you want to get from one end ofa continent to the other while also being AFK.


Ideally flying should get a revamp so it isnt so grossly OP. No other game where movement is even remotely important has flying this good. Even Just Cause requires the bare minimum amount of skill to use, and that game is built almost entirely as an excercise in wild abandon.

[Gaidax]

We don't get flying immediately because the current version of flying is antithetical to actual gameplay.

And yet somehow we had in TBC and WoTLK and actual gameplay did not end there.

See this argument, it just does not fly. We already had it and somehow the world (of Warcraft) did not end there.


If Blizzard wants people to experience the zones, they can do same shit they did in TBC/WoTLK - flying only after you purchase it somewhere at the end part of leveling. They could absolutely allow flying in 9.0, but let's say make covenant campaign progress as requirement for it, so you get it after a month, when all them new zones fresh paint starts wearing out.

Heck they could take a page out of their TBC/WoTLK playbook and make parts of the zone accessible only with flying too. That would add some new stuff to do 1-2 months later.

- - - Updated - - -

In short, Blizzard really needs to get off their limitations on everything fad.

If people want to bloody fly in X.0 - then bloody let them, lock it behind a month of initial campaign questing, but that it.

Same goes for everything else. You want covenant choice to matter in 9.0? Wonderful, make it like it launched until you hit 40 renown and 40 renown reward being what we get in 9.1.5. You can even justify it by you being 40 renown and doing everything you did - every bloody cov would want you or want you back pronto.

Like these redemption quests made no fucking sense - you literally saved us from total doom and destruction during covenant campaign, but we can't have you back without you picking up some chests and killing a few lieutenants and shit.

[Hitei]

And yet somehow we had in TBC and WoTLK and actual gameplay did not end there.

See this argument, it just does not fly. We already had it and somehow the world (of Warcraft) did not end there.

It really sort of did though. As soon as you got flying in TBC the world became a complete non-threat, which especially at the time was a major difference. Even areas full of elites that had been extremely threatening and dangerous areas were suddenly "lol, just casually fly right over to the thing you need." It also immediately destroyed any real sense of zone navigation, because even a fairly complex zone to navigate like Blade's Edge got turned into "alt tab while flying in a straight line directly to objective".

I think it's fine to like flying, but also it very, very literally takes the player out of the world. Before it you have a bunch of actual gameplay choices "do I enter this area from the front or is it easier to get to the objective from the side entrance", "Would it be quicker to jump down off of here or is that gonna aggro a bunch of things at the bottom and be a hassle?" "Should I take the long way around or just cut through these mobs and try to avoid getting dismounted?" "There's a herb/minning node up on that cliff/over that little mini canyon... is it worth looping around to get up there/to the other side? Which ore/herb is it?"

When you having flying, all of those gameplay choice moments become "lol doesn't matter, fly straight to the thing". A huge chunk of gameplay does end.

Adding actual flying was a massive mistake. They should have made flying mounts able to jump very high and then glide, either like a lower altitude Aviana's or like the goblin jump-pack things that were sometimes around in BfA. Then at least you'd have to consider approach and how to get around, as well as where you're going to land each time.

[therumblings]

I think they did flying great this expansion. I think renown is the best version of timegating, if they're going to keep timegating stuff. Putting flying in with renown as apart of 9.0 would have been perfect. I'm hoping 10.0 has flying at launch as part of some questing/renown type system.

Because this way, at least you are forced to experience the gameplay without flight, at least once, for a short period of time (Just a few weeks into max level/the .0 patch), without being forced to arbitrarily grind reputation and achievements.

[GR8GODZILLAGOD]

God these 9.1.5 changes are frustrating. If they were in the expansion to begin with, I probably wouldn’t have unsubscribed. Least before the lawsuit and crap. Swap between covenants and use all the transmog at once? That’s motivating as hell to play and collect them. Anima isn’t a horrible grind? I’ll actually grind anima. Level up in Torghast and Maw skip? Hello leveling alts. Possible legacy raid tuning? Fucking finally.

God these deva need to get their head out of their asses and know when to listen to the players.

[Gaidax]

It really sort of did though. As soon as you got flying in TBC the world became a complete non-threat,

Yes because modern expansions questing zones are such a threat...

You really need to sit back and just consider this - the open world is a walk in the park, it's meant to be a walk in the part because it needs to be appropriate for some random Billy or Timmy that barely can manage 3 buttons and just log in once in a while to whack some shit.

This "but flying would make world not a threat" is like... what the heck are you even talking about mate??? You know why they don't give flying? Because it would make world be small... that it.

Imagine flying in Korthia - you'd get across the zone in 40 seconds flat.

The effort solution for this is to make zones BIGGER and split them to FFA and flying mount reachable only zones. The easy solution - let's make stamp-sized zone and disable flying.

Flying is not the issue, zones themselves are. They are high fidelity, a lot of art and assets, filled with treasures events and mobs, but they are too small. What is needed is zones like Hellfire Peninsula where you have vast areas of nothing in-between landmarks and locales. There is a feeling of vastness there that IMO is lost with modern zones somewhat.

Not every square inch must be populated with props and shit, it's not bloody New York. Scope is also important.

- - - Updated - - -

That part of the announcment has really gotten to you, eh?

Missed this one and yes.


This is at the base of their famous statue in front of HQ:



And then they wonder what the fuck has happened...

[Hitei]

Yes because modern expansions questing zones are such a threat...

You really need to sit back and just consider this - the open world is a walk in the park, it's meant to be a walk in the part because it needs to be appropriate for some random Billy or Timmy that barely can manage 3 buttons and just log in once in a while to whack some shit.

This "but flying would make world not a threat" is like... what the heck are you even talking about mate??? You know why they don't give flying? Because it would make world be small... that it.

Imagine flying in Korthia - you'd get across the zone in 40 seconds flat.

The effort solution for this is to make zones BIGGER and split them to FFA and flying mount reachable only zones. The easy solution - let's make stam-sized zone and disable flying.

Flying is not the issue, zones themselves are. They are high fidelity, a lot of art and assets, filled with treasures events and mobs, but they are too small. What is needed is zones like Hellfire Peninsula where you have vast areas of nothing in-between landmarks and locales. There is a feeling of vastness there that IMO is lost with modern zones somewhat.

Not every square inch must be populated with props and shit, it's not bloody New York. Scope is also important.

This is woefully ignorant of basic design process, but gets parroted constantly. The effort solution is the current one. Designing smaller, extremely dense zones with convoluted pathing and terrain, naturally varied verticality and a large amount of detail. The low effort solution is to make big zones, because all a big zone requires is open space where nothing is happening. Look at the big zones. Uldum. Dragonblight. The Barrens. Nagrand. Tanaris. Elwynn Do you see how little effort that is? instead of keeping that density, you just add open, blank, 90% flat space between the bits of terrain with basic grass/rocks sprinkled around and the occasional random mob spawn. It's easy. A complete joke. It would probably take the current zone design team literally a couple days to make a zone like Hellfire Pennisula or the Barrens with current tech.

They don't give players flying because they don't like flying existing because with it, you might as well not put any effort into zones and instead just pump out those big open flat boring zones, because any and all terrain is the exact same with flying: just shit below you that you go straight over. And they don't make big zones for the sake of the gameplay experience, because while it's very, very, very easy to make open empty space for the sake of scale, all it does is add a bunch of excess travel time and empty terrain for players to cross over, Like Dragonblight where 99% of any time spent in the zone is just crossing over ice and snow to try and get from one small bit of actual content to the next bit on the other side of a giant empty white field with (just like flying) zero thought or interaction, because it's just empty space to go straight through.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

"Gameplay first"


Yeah and we all know gameplay has only one lens of viewing it................not.

[huth]

That's also a great idea. They said they didn't wanna do that for Demon Hunters IIRC, which they should still do, but that would also work great for Kyrians.

Even makes a certain amount of sense, since Kyrians need to earn their wings first.