Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Sondrelk]

The problem with flying isnt that you can move in three dimensions, or even that you can skip stuff that you might normally have to stick to the ground for, the problem is how extremely trivial the current incarnation makes it.

Flying is faster than ground mounts, more versatile than flight paths, and can be done from close anywhere assuming Blizzard flips the switch allowing it.
There is no inherent gameplay to flying. There isnt any question made before using it like there might be when you decide between other modes of transportation in the game.

Compare this to a game like GTA.
Now that is a series of games built very much on open world catharsis. Movement options are everywhere, cars can be stolen in seconds and they are a constant presence.
However flying requires a bit more effort. It requires finding a vehicle capable of flight, it requires the ability to take-off, and it requires adhering to basic rules of flight like gravity and not being able to drive a plane backwards.

Flying in that game is balanced. There are moments where a player might elect to not use it even if one is available close by. However because of these limitations flying in that game is infinitely more fun and nuanced than it is in WoW. Landing is a skill in and of itself, so if you want to reuse a plane you better learn how to use it properly.
What this does is let flying exist in the game, but also give other modes of transport time to shine. You wouldnt use flight to get to a nearby building because it would be a waste, nor would you necessarily use it if you need precision. However if you want to travel a long way and cannot be assed to consider things like roads and following the map you can take the time to find a plane or helicopter, which is easy once you get further in the game, and simply bypass that stuff.


In WoW flying is the ultimate option in virtually all matters of movement. The only realistic times you wouldnt just mount up is either when the game physically doesnt let you, or when the distance is so short that the casttime is longer than the time it takes to run.
See an ore node? Just mount up and go straight to it. See a rare mob, mount up and go straight there. Is there an obstacle? Mount up and fly over. Roaming elite? Mount up and fly over.

This is all compunded by how extremely trivial the actual mechanics of flight is in WoW. 1 second cast time and you ignore gravity. It is about as close the game can get into giving the player noclip without also letting them phase through objects. This also means there is no inherent enjoyment to be gained from using flying other than momentary stuff like not being inconvenienced.


A more in-depth flying mechanic would help immensely in this case. Not being able to takeoff from just anywhere. Flying mounts being bound by stuff like momentum.
Just look at games like Guild Wars, ones where flying can be a gameplay loop in itself, with challenges that can rise organically from it rather than it being a simple tool to remove an obstacle.
The version of flying we have now isnt one that can really be used for fun flying challenges or treasures meant to be found by using flying skillfully because there is no skill needed. Flying in WoW is completely without depth, and worse still it has been so ingrained in the game that players actually think a mechanic that lets you bypass stuff for absolutely no cost is good for it.
The version of flying we have now is the open-world equivalent of the dev-only shirt from vanilla that lets you instakill raid bosses.

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"Gameplay first"


Yeah and we all know gameplay has only one lens of viewing it................not.

I love the irony of him trying to make the point in the same post he is arguing for the removal of open-world gameplay by adding flying.

[draugril]

Either they make travel more engaging than “don’t get dismounted by this arbitrary pack of elites!” or they make flying available on launch.

If travel was engaging on a personal level, not just engaging as a KPI, I’d be all for staying grounded. But travel hasn’t been relevant for over a decade.

There was a loss of immersion by design and the solution isn’t as simplistic as keeping players on the ground.

[Dracullus]

Gameplay first = Blizzard listen only to me, duh.

Blizzard why, oh why you lost your ways from good old days? Where my country gone?

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I love the irony of him trying to make the point in the same post he is arguing for the removal of open-world gameplay by adding flying.

Flying does have that effect on the game unfortunately. I guess its hard to implement some of the flying mount game mechanics while it still makes sense and works within the normal gameplay on the ground.

That is provided people actually agree flying affects gameplay and if people can't agree on that, I have a hard time looking at a Pro flying perspective.

[Sondrelk]

Flying does have that effect on the game unfortunately. I guess its hard to implement some of the flying mount game mechanics while it still makes sense and works within the normal gameplay on the ground.

That is provided people actually agree flying affects gameplay and if people can't agree on that, I have a hard time looking at a Pro flying perspective.

I cannot imagine changing flying is difficult conceptually. Might be difficult to make it work when it comes to coding, but a version that makes takeoff more of a hassle in hostile areas and changes flying to be based on momentum it should be fine.

Walking to the top of a mountain, mounting up and using the momentum downards to reach immense speeds should be gratifying. Instead you mount up, move untethered by physics, reach your maximum speed immediately and come to a stop just as abruptly.

[Nagawithlegs]

I had no problem with no flying at launch this expansion. It was fun mastering my covenants zone and developing the travel network.

BFA was a different story, some of the zones like Drustvar and Nazmir were miserable to travel through even after you’ve “beat” the zone. And the verticality in Dazaralor..

[Gaidax]

Gameplay first = Blizzard listen only to me, duh.

Blizzard why, oh why you lost your ways from good old days? Where my country gone?

I mean... the house is practically burning and Blizzard scrambles to splash just about every cup of water they can on the raging flames and you say that...

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I love the irony of him trying to make the point in the same post he is arguing for the removal of open-world gameplay by adding flying.

It's really not my problem you and Blizzard can't wrap their heads around how to let people have flying in a way that does not remove anything from the open world. There are plenty of games that did it just fine, but Blizzard are speshul.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I mean... the house is practically burning and Blizzard scrambles to splash just about every cup of water they can on the raging flames and you say that...

You realize the house is burning outside of WoW issues but you seem to have an axe to grind.

[Cosmic Janitor]

I cannot imagine changing flying is difficult conceptually. Might be difficult to make it work when it comes to coding, but a version that makes takeoff more of a hassle in hostile areas and changes flying to be based on momentum it should be fine.

Given how Blizzard can't properly code certain jumping puzzles, I wouldn't be so sure about that. Their net code basically operates on the the principle of "client is always right unless we really don't want it to" which is great for the fluidity of the game in most cases, but also means the client spends more time desynced from the server than synced by ridiculous factors. When you now have timing sensitve problems and "skill checks" constantly this becomes an issue. Making flying more challenging would most likely be such a skill check, so either it needs to be extremely forgiving like the molten front hyppogryph jousting or you end up constantaly falling off like the Kyrian "fyling" quests. I'll be among the first to agree that flying in WoW is weird and more akin to swimming in the air (ironically the default animation..), but I'm not convinced that giving it momentum, lift, drag, etc. would actually be that easy.

For the most part the solution to treasure chest and minigames is way simpler and was already done in shadowlands. Put the player in a "can't fly/mount/use skills right now" magic state. Also rogues, druids, demon hunter and to a certain degree hunters can trivialize such content massively as well. Or tanks that can just ride through hordes of enemies and can't be dazed or hurt.

[Dracullus]

I mean... the house is practically burning and Blizzard scrambles to splash just about every cup of water they can on the raging flames and you say that...

Showing everything in overdramatized light and pretending it was all sunshine and roses in the past for sure will help in current situation.

[Sondrelk]

Given how Blizzard can't properly code certain jumping puzzles, I wouldn't be so sure about that. Their net code basically operates on the the principle of "client is always right unless we really don't want it to" which is great for the fluidity of the game in most cases, but also means the client spends more time desynced from the server than synced by ridiculous factors. When you now have timing sensitve problems and "skill checks" constantly this becomes an issue. Making flying more challenging would most likely be such a skill check, so either it needs to be extremely forgiving like the molten front hyppogryph jousting or you end up constantaly falling off like the Kyrian "fyling" quests. I'll be among the first to agree that flying in WoW is weird and more akin to swimming in the air (ironically the default animation..), but I'm not convinced that giving it momentum, lift, drag, etc. would actually be that easy.

For the most part the solution to treasure chest and minigames is way simpler and was already done in shadowlands. Put the player in a "can't fly/mount/use skills right now" magic state. Also rogues, druids, demon hunter and to a certain degree hunters can trivialize such content massively as well. Or tanks that can just ride through hordes of enemies and can't be dazed or hurt.

Flying doesnt need to be massively complicated, but there definitely should be more skill to it. The game manages rising and slowing speed perfectly well, and the engine manages rising velocity form gravity perfectly fine, so I cannot imagine that it where the problem would be.

The reason for a flying revamp should be to be able to remove the issue with flying where the only realistic option to integrate it in the game is to remove it.
Currently the game manages to have open-world content be fully relevant by removing flying entirely, and when flying was added the only solution was to again remove flying when it interfered with gameplay.

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I mean... the house is practically burning and Blizzard scrambles to splash just about every cup of water they can on the raging flames and you say that...

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It's really not my problem you and Blizzard can't wrap their heads around how to let people have flying in a way that does not remove anything from the open world. There are plenty of games that did it just fine, but Blizzard are speshul.

Other gmaes manages to integrate flying because it isnt as grossly OP as the one in WoW. In most other games this kind of flying would be called godmode, not balanced flight.

Had Blizzard changed it to require even the slighest bit of skill, even just enough to know how to take off from an unusual location then it could be balanced perfectly well around pretty much all content the game has.
But instead flying just untethers you from physics. No obstacle is ever an issue when the game has a button that lets you more freely in all directions from any location that isnt hardcoded to turn that option off.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I..don't want to turn this into flying but IMO Flying is here to stay and I think Blizzard need to find a way to make it not so(As dude above me said OP). Cats out of the bag, and we can't go back. Doesn't mean we should just pretend flying has no effect on gameplay.

[Gaidax]

You realize the house is burning outside of WoW issues but you seem to have an axe to grind.

You kidding?

Took note of 9.1.5? That's no outside issues, it's them scrambling to salvage playerbase fleeing like mad. No it's not a lawsuit, that's just icing on the cake of their general mismanagement of their IP over last 5 years.

[Raetary]

Keep flying, minimize the areas you can fly in with heavy anti-flying mechanics.
Hard to fly when the zone literally attempts to kill you when you are in the air.

[Sondrelk]

Keep flying, minimize the areas you can fly in with heavy anti-flying mechanics.
Hard to fly when the zone literally attempts to kill you when you are in the air.

That would only really be an annoyance, and wouldnt really fix the underlying issues that flying has.

Though then again, an actual revamp to flying mechanics is vanishingly unlikely given the visceral reaction some of hte playerbase seemed to have when even the mere idea that they wouldnt be able to skip past mild inconveniences on the ground were proposed in WoD.

[Nagawithlegs]

What is with the constant and nonstop hateposting? It's tiresome.

Discuss upcoming content and speculate or fuck off.

[TomatoBisque]

What is with the constant and nonstop hateposting? It's tiresome.

Discuss upcoming content and speculate or fuck off.

these people are addicted; they're not having fun but don't actually have other hobbies so they just come here to whine about how the one they do have has been ruined

[Makabreska]

You kidding?

Took note of 9.1.5? That's no outside issues, it's them scrambling to salvage playerbase fleeing like mad. No it's not a lawsuit, that's just icing on the cake of their general mismanagement of their IP over last 5 years.

Is it really mismanagement, when their revenue keeps rising? It may be all very well planned business model. Suffer sub loss, but make the games in a way that generates more money (and then fix the known issues to lure people back). Let's not forget whose the boss of Acti-Blizz.
What's the other explanation for repeating same stuff 3rd expansion in a row?

[Gaidax]

these people are addicted; they're not having fun but don't actually have other hobbies so they just come here to whine about how the one they do have has been ruined

Ehhhhhh?

What's there to praise in current state of WoW pray tell? That they still have great raiding and did not manage to destroy that one too yet? Good job, I guess?

One of the things many hope for in 9.2, but realistically 10.0 is that they get over their bullshit of last 5 years that caught up to them and make a game worthy of title World of Warcraft.

I, personally, am pretty fair about Blizzard - if you look at my history, vast majority of it was positive about Blizzard, even rationalizing their questionable shit. But so it happens that things simply grow on you, there is just one too many failures as of late to defend or rationalize and sometimes, especially for sake of 9.2 and 10.0 - it's better to give them some frank thoughts instead of yet another round of mental gymnastics trying to make things appear better than they really are.

And by the way, I have fun in WoW in raiding and social aspect that comes with it. Does not mean I automatically have to slurp down all their obvious bullshit in core systems and decisions they do over the years. They just made one too many fuckups for me to shill for them as I used to.

I don't have expectations for 9.2. But for 10.0? Big ones... Make a fucking good 10.0, then we'll see if we get to reset.

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Is it really mismanagement, when their revenue keeps rising? It may be all very well planned business model. Suffer sub loss, but make the games in a way that generates more money (and then fix the known issues to lure people back). Let's not forget whose the boss of Acti-Blizz.
What's the other explanation for repeating same stuff 3rd expansion in a row?

KEKW...

I won't even dignify this a response.

[Makabreska]

KEKW...

I won't even dignify this a response.

Sure, if you can't come up with one. That's okay.