Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Cosmic Janitor]

Changes to anything will lead to complaints. However as WoD proved, if the system is irreparable then you just need to accept the outrage to make the game better long term.

After all, if Blizzard hadn't changed flying in WoD then we would probably not have gotten better ground content, nor would we likely see the return of a more vibrant open world content variety like we saw in Legion with Suramar.

I completely disagree with that. There are plenty of ways around flying for the very few minor things that would be disturbed by it. The vast majority is just farming, which should simply be addressed by nerfing that damned sky golem (and druids) into the ground. The main purpose of the overworld is questing and at endgame to do WQs, and there it's just wasting more of our time getting around, to the point that they have to pepper the zones with flight points awkwardly standing alone in the middle of nowhere.

It seems like you desperately try to sacifice flying because you somehow think it's the big thing that is stopping your precious would revamp. The few treasures could be handled in a differnt manner like the Revendreth/Korthia puzzles as well as more indoor locations.

[Yarathir]

I'm still wondering if 9.1.5 will have no heritage armor at all, or if they simply haven't mentioned it yet? I'm not naive enough to assume the latter at this point.

[Raetary]

I'm still wondering if 9.1.5 will have no heritage armor at all, or if they simply haven't mentioned it yet? I'm not naive enough to assume the latter at this point.

They'd have mentioned it in the patch preview if heritage sets were coming.

[Yarathir]

They'd have mentioned it in the patch preview if heritage sets were coming.

I think so too.

Rip heritage armor.

[Nagawithlegs]

They'd have mentioned it in the patch preview if heritage sets were coming.

Not exactly. The big comment list was stuff that had to do with player feedback, and the first list was incomplete.

There will clearly be SOME new content, as small as it is.

[Yarathir]

Not exactly. The big comment list was stuff that had to do with player feedback, and the first list was incomplete.

I do think heritage armor is one of those things they'd use as an advertising feature, though.

[Sondrelk]

I completely disagree with that. There are plenty of ways around flying for the very few minor things that would be disturbed by it. The vast majority is just farming, which should simply be addressed by nerfing that damned sky golem (and druids) into the ground. The main purpose of the overworld is questing and at endgame to do WQs, and there it's just wasting more of our time getting around, to the point that they have to pepper the zones with flight points awkwardly standing alone in the middle of nowhere.

It seems like you desperately try to sacifice flying because you somehow think it's the big thing that is stopping your precious would revamp. The few treasures could be handled in a differnt manner like the Revendreth/Korthia puzzles as well as more indoor locations.

The problem with flying is twofold. One is the constant cycle of dismount/mount that ends up plaguing all content flying is available in.
The second is how powerful flying is in general. There is no downside to choosing to use flying over other movement options when it is available. It has the same ability to dodge enemies given by running, it is faster than ground mounts, and it is more versatile then flight points.

A smaller niggle is also that the mechanics of flying are nonexistent. There isn't any inherent mechanic that can be used with it to do fun stuff. You just mount up, reach max speed instantly with full 3D movement, and when you want to stop you can do so instantly.
Consider this is contrast to GTA and other sandbox games in which flight is a joy in and of itself. Or games in which challenges can rise organically from the mechanics themselves.

Flying in wow is when the open world content ceases to have any complexity, it all ends up boiling down to the same fly to objective dismount/mount cycle that it always does. No unique zone abilities, no need to understand the geography, no real need for utility abilities.

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I do think heritage armor is one of those things they'd use as an advertising feature, though.

It most definitely is. It's a new and shiny concept art and in-game renders they can use as centerpieces of any reveal.
Unless Blizzard seriously considers being able to skip the Maw intro sequence a more exciting feature then heritage armor is unlikely to be in the patch.

[Nagawithlegs]

I do think heritage armor is one of those things they'd use as an advertising feature, though.

If they are hiding it it’s probably because they didn’t want to spoil the first content list with people going “bloo bloo why not MY race”. Or it’s a reveal today.

[therumblings]

Doubt the PTR will be today but who knows, could be a nice surprise if they're eager to get it out fast.

[Cosmic Janitor]

The problem with flying is twofold. One is the constant cycle of dismount/mount that ends up plaguing all content flying is available in.
The second is how powerful flying is in general. There is no downside to choosing to use flying over other movement options when it is available. It has the same ability to dodge enemies given by running, it is faster than ground mounts, and it is more versatile then flight points.

A smaller niggle is also that the mechanics of flying are nonexistent. There isn't any inherent mechanic that can be used with it to do fun stuff. You just mount up, reach max speed instantly with full 3D movement, and when you want to stop you can do so instantly.
Consider this is contrast to GTA and other sandbox games in which flight is a joy in and of itself. Or games in which challenges can rise organically from the mechanics themselves.

Flying in wow is when the open world content ceases to have any complexity, it all ends up boiling down to the same fly to objective dismount/mount cycle that it always does. No unique zone abilities, no need to understand the geography, no real need for utility abilities.

If you take flying away then the same is true for ground mounts, they are just superior in every way. The ranking just shifts to the next in line.

You can also easily introduce downsides to it, as they did back in TBC, they just forgot about it somehow..

[Edward Wu]

I never played GW2 much but didn't that game have a nice flying system? As far as I'm aware (I could be totally wrong here) they had restrictions put in place on flight itself, rather than just outright removing it as a feature like WoW tried to do.

At this point you really can't remove flying, it's too integral to the playerbase. I say this as someone who is completely ambivalent towards this issue. You'd need to look at the flight mechanic itself and limit it in some way that solves the core issues with flying in regards to affecting the world design and also probably getting rid of pathfinder as a trade-off as well.

[therumblings]

I don't even think flight needs to be limited, with the Dragon Isles potentially being flying islands, you can add some really cool verticality to the zones. Also, I think flying should be in the .0 patch or the .1 patch at the latest, because once you are max level for a few weeks you experienced all there is to experience on the ground. Which is why I like the renown reward version of flying, it just needed to come sooner.

[Raetary]

If you take flying away then the same is true for ground mounts, they are just superior in every way. The ranking just shifts to the next in line.

You can also easily introduce downsides to it, as they did back in TBC, they just forgot about it somehow..

Not really, a ground mount just makes you faster but it does not allow you to completely skip over ground content.

You still have to navigate around terrain and the enemies in it.
Not to mention that certain mobs have stun and slow mechanics or just straight up daze and dismount you.

Excluding flying, they are not the most superior travel option either.
If you need to travel long distances you'd take a portal or FP instead, and if the zone has accessible elevation, Gliders are vastly more superior than mounts.

And for very short distances, i would definitely say its a lot more worthwhile to just angelic feather/hook/blink/jump, etc. over than spend 1.5 seconds mounting up.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Not really, a ground mount just makes you faster but it does not allow you to completely skip over ground content.

You still have to navigate around terrain and the enemies in it.
Not to mention that certain mobs have stun and slow mechanics or just straight up daze and dismount you.

Excluding flying, they are not the most superior travel option either.
If you need to travel long distances you'd take a portal or FP instead, and if the zone has accessible elevation, Gliders are vastly more superior than mounts.

All of that could apply to flying mounts as well. Blizzard just never bothered to implement such things past TBC (and the minefield in K11)

[Lady Atia]

All of that could apply to flying mounts as well. Blizzard just never bothered to implement such things past TBC (and the minefield in K11)

Well they actually used that stuff again in Mechagon/Uldum/Vale. I loved the mechanic that you could fly without restriction on Mechagon if you got the Hardmode mount!

[Raetary]

All of that could apply to flying mounts as well. Blizzard just never bothered to implement such things past TBC (and the minefield in K11)

Yes, that's what i was advocating for some pages ago.
Keep flying, but introduce more anti-flying mechanics in certain areas.

More flying enemy NPCs that actually do things, cannons and hooks that will shoot and attache themselves to you if you get to close, enemies utilizing magic to cast you down if you don't land, etc.

Hell, if its necessary i'd even shrink the sky limit down so we can't just fly up into the fucking stratosphere.
Or introduce some form of vertical fatigue mechanic that keeps you from doing that.

[draugril]

I don't even think flight needs to be limited, with the Dragon Isles potentially being flying islands, you can add some really cool verticality to the zones. Also, I think flying should be in the .0 patch or the .1 patch at the latest, because once you are max level for a few weeks you experienced all there is to experience on the ground. Which is why I like the renown reward version of flying, it just needed to come sooner.

This whole flying issue is very telling - modern Blizzard has no idea how to create an immersive world. It's a glorified lobby, and they're well aware of that. They want to create a world that feels alive and immersive, but their sole effort to achieve that is to keep you on that ground. That's it. I'm not say that can't contribute to a feeling of immersion, but if that's the sole effort? It does nothing. When the rest of the game is completely driven by game systems (as opposed to systems that make sense in-universe) all it does is make achieving those goals slower.

No one is stopping to smell the roses because the developers arbitrarily decided to keep us grounded. The game isn't designed to encourage that mindset.

[Sondrelk]

All of that could apply to flying mounts as well. Blizzard just never bothered to implement such things past TBC (and the minefield in K11)

It could if it was designed better, but it isn't.

Flying as is has no weaknesses. When it was first introduced it was at least significantly slower than both flight points and ground mounts. But now with 310% movement speed it is only marginally slower than a flight point, and it still has all the advantages of being from and to anywhere as opposed to being point to point.

There is no realistic reason a player would choose to use anything but a flying mount unless the game forces their hand like what we have now with being unable to fly between zones without a flight point.

In a better designed iteration of flying it would have a niche that doesn't directly compete with other modes of transportation. It could be difficult to take off, preventing it from superseding ground mounts, or it be slower so flight paths are better for long term.

Without flying there are times when you would choose between running, mounts and flight paths without feeling like any us inherently superior. With flying it is always the best choice, whether you intend to get across the zone, navigate uneven terrain or avoid mobs.

[Edward Wu]

Yeah, flying at the start with strict no-flying areas (sub-zones) in the actual zones themselves sounds like a pretty good idea, on top of introducing verticality to sometimes require flying.

Also, another change I'd suggest is larger subterranean areas and maybe even huge sub-zones as part of the larger zone where only ground mounts are allowed, making both flying and ground mounts very relevant but balanced, unlike it is now.

[Dracullus]

I don't get what are zones "with flying in mind". Something like Storm Peaks where some places are accessible only by flying? And what is so interesting about that?

Imo current system is pretty good.. if they would introduced flying to Maw in 9.2.