Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Cheezits]

I could foresee a Regent or High King Turalyon working primarily to shore up the Alliances defenses first and foremost, eager to re-establish old strongholds and establish new fortifications to protect Alliance territory and holdings. As with his approach to the Gathering in Before the Storm, his general philosophy seems to boil down to "hope for the best but expect the worst" and so on. For Dragonflight specifically, I think Turalyon would be keen to have the Alliance establish a defendable redoubt on the Isles posthaste - both due to his distrust of the Horde in general, and both to observe the area and liaise with the Dragonflights' leadership personally. Of course, this could also be seen as an implicit claim on lands that manifestly belong to neither the Alliance nor the Horde, being ancestral land that the dragons claim as their own. All kinds of room for political disagreements and even minor conflicts to rise up if Turalyon's quick posturing is read as an encroachment on sovereign territory (by either the Aspects or the Primals, that is).

I don't think Turalyon will make any moves until the next eventual EK/Kalimdor expansion. We may see something similar to Cata Ashenvale in scope, though maybe not as strictly faction v faction, but somewhere on the main continents where he's trying to expand the territories.

The general "vibe" of a more militant Alliance will definitely show through however. I expect a lot less pop culture and a lot more "go kill ten boars on our territory lines, for the Alliance!"

[Khaza-R]

There really isn't any good point you can conclusively state a new era of WoW started. Cats was a big shakeup for sure, but as I mentioned before, WotLK is a vastly different kind of game to TBC, and MoP is vastly different to Cata.

It always tends to come down to players desperately trying to justify not being into the game anymore by setting arbitrary lines for when the game stopped being good.

Agree with you completely. Its a bit of Theseus's ship going on. At what point have we replaced enough of WoW to start considering something new.

I get why people feel like DF is a new era. BfA and Shadowlands made little to no changes to the core of the game. But as you stated, most of WoW's expansions made significant changes over time. The past two expansions are really just outliers. So I don't personally think of it as a new era, just WoW returning to normal. Which is a great thing imo.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

The general "vibe" of a more militant Alliance will definitely show through however. I expect a lot less pop culture and a lot more "go kill ten boars on our territory lines, for the Alliance!"

That seems more in-line with Turalyon's characterization than "lol Yellow Garrosh"—the Cold War-esque paranoia and territorial defensiveness seems more strictly like what would make sense.

[Cheezits]

Agree with you completely. Its a bit of Theseus's ship going on. At what point have we replaced enough of WoW to start considering something new.

I get why people feel like DF is a new era. BfA and Shadowlands made little to no changes to the core of the game. But as you stated, most of WoW's expansions made significant changes over time. The past two expansions are really just outliers. So I don't personally think of it as a new era, just WoW returning to normal. Which is a great thing imo.

BFA absolutely made core changes to the world and lore of the game. Huge changes. Arguably more than any expansion prior.

Mechanically? Not so much.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Where is the difference between the Eternal Ones bodies being 3D printed (they still have unique souls and need them to be more than automa) and most races in WoW being literal robots that got fleshy thanks to the Old Gods?

the difference is that the mortal races are more or less a cosmic mistake never actually meant to be while the eternals are meant to be older then mortal time and gods of the after life suppose to keep all reality running smoothly. To just have them just be robots takes away from the core reason we should care about any of there realms or the after life process at all as it can just be changed on a whim with no actual consequences like we did with pelages.

The shoddy state of the street life pretty much turns them from needed gods to keep the after life in check into just another cosmic mistake.

Also I don't really care about "beliefs" and I actually enjoy that the answer to the afterlife is different from the ideas of the races - because why should mortal beings be right about the afterlife if they never were there? It's like .... if some kind of gods *would* exist in real life, I'm 100% sure they would look like nothing you could even imagine. For sure not like some people thousands of years ago thought they would be lol.

we have had beings come from the after life and tell the living about it since WC3 and it has come
Up in almost every expan pre Sl, orcs whole religion is about talking to there ancestors in the after life. the people of Azeroth should absolutely have an idea about he after life and how there religions fit into it, but SL throws all of that out of the window.

Also, the shadowlands are infinite, so any past glimpses at them would still be valid. Either that, or they were just pocket dimensions like Helheim.

except they can’t as things like the light aren’t part of the shadowlands so all those light based ghost like uther in the plague lands simply can’t exist as well as the orc focused afterlife not existing as we know from the sylvanas book that family’s and loved ones didn’t get to stay together in death.

[Lady Atia]

the difference is that the mortal races are more or less a cosmic mistake never actually meant to be while the eternals are meant to be older then mortal time and gods of the after life suppose to keep all reality running smoothly. To just have them just be robots takes away from the core reason we should care about any of there realms or the after life process at all as it can just be changed on a whim with no actual consequences like we did with pelages.

The shoddy state of the street life pretty much turns them from needed gods to keep the after life in check into just another cosmic mistake.

we have had beings come from the after life and tell the living about it since WC3 and it has come
Up in almost every expan pre Sl, orcs whole religion is about talking to there ancestors in the after life. the people of Azeroth should absolutely have an idea about he after life and how there religions fit into it, but SL throws all of that out of the window.

except they can’t as things like the light aren’t part of the shadowlands so all those light based ghost like uther in the plague lands simply can’t exist as well as the orc focused afterlife not existing as we know from the sylvanas book that family’s and loved ones didn’t get to stay together in death.

I thought that bit was just a lie from the Jailer to get Sylvie on board? We defo see f.e. the two gay deers in Ardenweald and they are still together.

[Cheezits]

except they can’t as things like the light aren’t part of the shadowlands so all those light based ghost like uther in the plague lands simply can’t exist as well as the orc focused afterlife not existing as we know from the sylvanas book that family’s and loved ones didn’t get to stay together in death.

FWIW, this is a lie told by the Jailer to manipulate Sylvanas. In some cases it actually happens (Draka and Durotan) but it is not always what happens.

As for the Light ghosts, Uther's ghost is up in the air: his death animation IMPLIES his soul was split into two halves, which may explain the light copy that shows up in Wrath, but at the same time it may have just been the part that went to Bastion.

Regardless of the Uther stuff which may be a huge retcon they don't care about: some souls DO go to the Light, which is not part of the Shadowlands, just like some souls go back to the Void and other cosmic areas. That isn't breaking lore.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I could foresee a Regent or High King Turalyon working primarily to shore up the Alliances defenses first and foremost, eager to re-establish old strongholds and establish new fortifications to protect Alliance territory and holdings. As with his approach to the Gathering in Before the Storm, his general philosophy seems to boil down to "hope for the best but expect the worst" and so on. For Dragonflight specifically, I think Turalyon would be keen to have the Alliance establish a defendable redoubt on the Isles posthaste - both due to his distrust of the Horde in general, and both to observe the area and liaise with the Dragonflights' leadership personally. Of course, this could also be seen as an implicit claim on lands that manifestly belong to neither the Alliance nor the Horde, being ancestral land that the dragons claim as their own. All kinds of room for political disagreements and even minor conflicts to rise up if Turalyon's quick posturing is read as an encroachment on sovereign territory (by either the Aspects or the Primals, that is).

That's my general assumption—he seems like a preparatory leader, something a little Cold War-esque. He doesn't want war, simply to maintain a persistent upper hand for leverage and in case of an attack from the other side. It is possible his territorial ambitions could become more outwardly aggressive, but it would otherwise be out-of-character for his expansionism to become too militant, or for him to end up too close to the (alleged) behavior to Yrel on Draenor. Of course, the Lightforged under him are a different story—we know that they're willing to work with the Ashvane's prisons and convert prisoners of war against their will. They may require some restraint, else they spill out and start taking lack of refusal as permission.

There's also the matter of the Scarlet Brotherhood—I imagine they may have some role in Dragonflight, given that their leader is implicitly a Black Dragon, though Turalyon's paranoia and preemptive action regarding the Dracthyr makes me think that any attempt to manipulate him on their part simply won't go through. It's likely that they'll try to make him a pawn, but he'll likely be a step ahead of them on that.

Either way, I think that your general characterization is my interpretation, too. Turalyon is a sort of Cold War-type leader who wants to maintain a persistent upper hand and may strike if it comes to it, but likely has no outwardly imperial policies.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I don't think this is true, as a lot of afterlives weren't shown. In fact they purposefully withheld the shaman afterlives, meaning they may not even be in the Shadowlands to begin with (possibly an "in-between" realm like Ardenweald?)

Light based after life’s don’t exist as the light is an outside force, so that’s humans dwarfs goats high/blood elf and undead religion ruined.

And after like where all the ancestors go don’t exist as the sylvanas book tells us no family’s are left intact let alone cultures, so that’s orcs ruined.

The dead staying with the living on Azeroth even if not in a tangible state is gone with the grimoire telling us Carine and his wife are in oroboros, so that’s the Cows ruined.

Pretty much h the only culture left intact is the night elfs and there wisp and even that is damaged as it turns out elune can just say fuck it and prevent the wisp from coming back sending them to the shadowlands.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Light based after life’s don’t exist as the light is an outside force, so that’s humans dwarfs goats high/blood elf and undead religion ruined.

Untrue. The Light can invite the dead to join it.

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And after like where all the ancestors go don’t exist as the sylvanas book tells us no family’s are left intact let alone cultures, so that’s orcs ruined.

That's explicitly a lie. In fact, it's suggested that Durotan is in that exact place.

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The dead staying with the living on Azeroth even if not in a tangible state is gone with the grimoire telling us Carine and his wife are in oroboros, so that’s the Cows ruined.

At that particular time, but we know that's not always the case—Cairne was actually seen in a spiritual form doing that.

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Pretty much h the only culture left intact is the night elfs and there wisp and even that is damaged as it turns out elune can just say fuck it and prevent the wisp from coming back sending them to the shadowlands.

That doesn't contradict anything, though.

[tristannarutofan]

FWIW, this is a lie told by the Jailer to manipulate Sylvanas. In some cases it actually happens (Draka and Durotan) but it is not always what happens.

As for the Light ghosts, Uther's ghost is up in the air: his death animation IMPLIES his soul was split into two halves, which may explain the light copy that shows up in Wrath, but at the same time it may have just been the part that went to Bastion.

Regardless of the Uther stuff which may be a huge retcon they don't care about: some souls DO go to the Light, which is not part of the Shadowlands, just like some souls go back to the Void and other cosmic areas. That isn't breaking lore.

I also cant stand that people act like this is some sort of horrible thing everyone would find hellish. I'd say most people would consider finding a anima devourer and ending their own afterlife if they had to deal with 1 specific family member for eternity. and MANY of us would consider spending eternity with ANY of our family eternal punishment.

and thats not even getting into the idea that like...in real life you tend to move on if a family member dies within a few years. Obviously there are plenty that mourn forever, and even those that 'move on' are still greatly affected by their loved one. 20 years after your wife dies you might be remarried with a new kid. but you expect me to believe mortals wouldnt have moved on in a few thousand years, a few hundred? I've been in bastion for 280 years, why would i care about some man and some woman i knew 3 centuries ago I stoppped talking to when i was a 20 just because i share DNA with them?

but yea it always irked me that people made a big deal about the afterlife when every afterlife you can think of is hell for someone. i think people are bringing their real world baggage into it because most people dont want to think about what the afterlife would actually be like. Are you happy forever? So you cant experience any other emotion and have no free will? Or is it like real life where you can have bad days? well then its just a 2nd life and not intrinsically good. If you are lumped in with all other souls that means you can be with souls you dont like which makes it terrible. Or if its like Not their actual souls but a copy that exists to make you happy then you are just in some sort of fake matrix simulation and nothing is real?

Every possible way the afterlife "paradise" could work is hell for someone and people dont want to think about that to hard so they act like "endless grove where you can eat fruit, watch plays and just relax for eternity (and thats how ardenweld worked until the jailer ruined everything) is somehow bad. Oh no I can live in paradise in eternal fields of beauty and have free food, infinite books to read and free weapons training (basically a Weeb paradise) and after a few hundred or thousands years if i get bored i can move on and focus on my new identity in my new life; who cares if i forget who i was in my past life. Yea horrible.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I also cant stand that people act like this is some sort of horrible thing everyone would find hellish. I'd say most people would consider finding a anima devourer and ending their own afterlife if they had to deal with 1 specific family member for eternity. and MANY of us would consider spending eternity with ANY of our family eternal punishment.

I think you just have emotional issues and potentially a dysfunctional family. Your manner of thinking is highly abnormal.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I thought that bit was just a lie from the Jailer to get Sylvie on board? We defo see f.e. the two gay deers in Ardenweald and they are still together.

The book has sylvanas go to countless afterlife’s personally to see if people get to be together in death and she finds none where it is the case, the jailer might have been lying about a lot of stuff but from what we are shown in the novel that wasn’t one of them.

As to the gay deer, either Ardenweald and they are the one exception of the afterlife’s shown or it’s just wow being inconsistent and the novel retcons them out of existence like new lore tends to do to old lore.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

The book has sylvanas go to countless afterlife’s personally to see if people get to be together in death and she finds none where it is the case, the jailer might have been lying about a lot of stuff but from what we are shown in the novel that wasn’t one of them.

As to the gay deer, either Ardenweald and they are the one exception of the afterlife’s shown or it’s just wow being inconsistent and the novel retcons them out of existence like new lore tends to do to old lore.

... or she was specifically being toured around by the Jailer's minions, meaning they'd have an incentive to show her a very limited and skewed version of things?

You're really stretching now with the retcon bit, too.

[tristannarutofan]

Untrue. The Light can invite the dead to join it.

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That's explicitly a lie. In fact, it's suggested that Durotan is in that exact place.

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At that particular time, but we know that's not always the case—Cairne was actually seen in a spiritual form doing that.

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That doesn't contradict anything, though.

thats the other thing. "oh all these mortals beliefs are proven untrue" . Wait you mean that Mortals who by definition dont go to the afterlife (because that would mean dying and coming back) DIDNT understand 100% how the afterlife worked? shocking.

Like that just ignores what belief is. Yes The tauren BELIEVED their ancestors stayed in the natural realm and guided them. And they were partially correct. Souls move on to a natural realm and can be tapped into through magic. The tauren DO guide their ancestors but they do it through magical connections tot he souls in the shadowlands.

Its like getting upset when you find out that Nordrassil is a giant root system instead of a tree. That didnt prove your beliefs were wrong, just that they werent accurate. You know, since no one who came up with those beliefs would know, since you CANT know about the afterlife until you die.

again IMO just people pushing their real world religious hangups onto the lore of the story. Your gods may not be real, the afterlife might not exist or if it doesn it might not work how you think it does. and that scares you. and so this lore exploring those themes in a videa gaime freaks you out.

[Lady Atia]

The book has sylvanas go to countless afterlife’s personally to see if people get to be together in death and she finds none where it is the case, the jailer might have been lying about a lot of stuff but from what we are shown in the novel that wasn’t one of them.

As to the gay deer, either Ardenweald and they are the one exception of the afterlife’s shown or it’s just wow being inconsistent and the novel retcons them out of existence like new lore tends to do to old lore.

The valkyr choose the afterlives they showed her - and since the shadowlands are infinite they would never have to run into one that actually had loved ones together. It was clearly a lie to get her on his side.

Also new lore > old lore is a thing in most stories. Not everything can be a Song of Ice and Fire.

[Cheezits]

They really should've stressed how many afterlives they are/how the main 4 are just the most important, because a lot of players genuinely think people are doomed to become a kyrian, venthyr etc. It was just poor writing and also incorrect expectations for the players (no, putting a lot of floating doors behind the Arbiter doesn't mean everyone's going to "get it")

[Lady Atia]

thats the other thing. "oh all these mortals beliefs are proven untrue" . Wait you mean that Mortals who by definition dont go to the afterlife (because that would mean dying and coming back) DIDNT understand 100% how the afterlife worked? shocking.

Like that just ignores what belief is. Yes The tauren BELIEVED their ancestors stayed in the natural realm and guided them. And they were partially correct. Souls move on to a natural realm and can be tapped into through magic. The tauren DO guide their ancestors but they do it through magical connections tot he souls in the shadowlands.

Its like getting upset when you find out that Nordrassil is a giant root system instead of a tree. That didnt prove your beliefs were wrong, just that they werent accurate. You know, since no one who came up with those beliefs would know, since you CANT know about the afterlife until you die.

again IMO just people pushing their real world religious hangups onto the lore of the story. Your gods may not be real, the afterlife might not exist or if it doesn it might not work how you think it does. and that scares you. and so this lore exploring those themes in a videa gaime freaks you out.

This ^^ - you get an internet cookie from me!

[Aucald]

That's my general assumption—he seems like a preparatory leader, something a little Cold War-esque. He doesn't want war, simply to maintain a persistent upper hand for leverage and in case of an attack from the other side. It is possible his territorial ambitions could become more outwardly aggressive, but it would otherwise be out-of-character for his expansionism to become too militant, or for him to end up too close to the (alleged) behavior to Yrel on Draenor. Of course, the Lightforged under him are a different story—we know that they're willing to work with the Ashvane's prisons and convert prisoners of war against their will. They may require some restraint, else they spill out and start taking lack of refusal as permission.

I think it would be interesting to see some friction develop between Turalyon and Captain Fareeya, his former second and now the leader of the Lightforged Draenei within the Alliance. Whereas Turalyon is more even-keeled, Fareeya definitely comes across as more fanatical and zealous overall, and definitely willing to creatively interpret commands to serve her ideas and opinions.

I don't recall the Scarlet Brotherhood/Crusade/Onslaught being led by or connected to a member of the Black Dragonflight though? They had a connection to the Legion via Balnazzar and Mal'Ganis, and Mal'Ganis also connects them to the Mawsworn by dint of the revelation that he originally (and continued) to serve the Jailer as well. As of Cata, it appears the bulk of the Crusade was converted into undeath by Balnazzar and summarily destroyed in the various EPL/Stratholme quest-chains. Am I missing one of the leaders that was later revealed to be a dragon?

[AOL Instant Messenger]

thats the other thing. "oh all these mortals beliefs are proven untrue" . Wait you mean that Mortals who by definition dont go to the afterlife (because that would mean dying and coming back) DIDNT understand 100% how the afterlife worked? shocking.

Like that just ignores what belief is. Yes The tauren BELIEVED their ancestors stayed in the natural realm and guided them. And they were partially correct. Souls move on to a natural realm and can be tapped into through magic. The tauren DO guide their ancestors but they do it through magical connections tot he souls in the shadowlands.

Its like getting upset when you find out that Nordrassil is a giant root system instead of a tree. That didnt prove your beliefs were wrong, just that they werent accurate. You know, since no one who came up with those beliefs would know, since you CANT know about the afterlife until you die.

again IMO just people pushing their real world religious hangups onto the lore of the story. Your gods may not be real, the afterlife might not exist or if it doesn it might not work how you think it does. and that scares you. and so this lore exploring those themes in a videa gaime freaks you out.

But I just spent my entire argument proving why those beliefs were actually true, and none of them were disproven at all.

You, conversely, are just making weird, non-sequitur and oddly cynical arguments. Are you okay? It seems like you implicitly just wanted to create a tortured connection to my post so you could rail against religion.

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I think it would be interesting to see some friction develop between Turalyon and Captain Fareeya, his former second and now the leader of the Lightforged Draenei within the Alliance. Whereas Turalyon is more even-keeled, Fareeya definitely comes across as more fanatical and zealous overall, and definitely willing to creatively interpret commands to serve her ideas and opinions.

I don't recall the Scarlet Brotherhood/Crusade/Onslaught being led by or connected to a member of the Black Dragonflight though? They had a connection to the Legion via Balnazzar and Mal'Ganis, and Mal'Ganis also connects them to the Mawsworn by dint of the revelation that he originally (and continued) to serve the Jailer as well. As of Cata, it appears the bulk of the Crusade was converted into undeath by Balnazzar and summarily destroyed in the various EPL/Stratholme quest-chains. Am I missing one of the leaders that was later revealed to be a dragon?

I was suggesting the supposed heir mentioned in this this could be a Black Dragon—it's not confirmed, just common and fairly believable pleblore. It is also entirely possible that the Scarlet Brotherhood is entirely making up their supposed heir. We know fairly certainly that it's not the real heir, though, because we know that Calia had a daughter and not a son.

As for Fareeya, I'm on the same wavelength there.