Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Sondrelk]

Yeah, flying at the start with strict no-flying areas (sub-zones) in the actual zones themselves sounds like a pretty good idea, on top of introducing verticality to sometimes require flying.

Also, another change I'd suggest is larger subterranean areas and maybe even huge sub-zones as part of the larger zone where only ground mounts are allowed, making both flying and ground mounts very relevant but balanced, unlike it is now.

This is also kinda why flying should get a revamp. Currently there is no middle ground between being able to fly and not. You can design zones to require flying, but you cannot really design a zone where flying is an integral mechanic since there is no inherent mechanic in current flying to exploit.
Had for instance flying been based on momentum then such a zone could have updrafts, skill challenges, unique treasures only able to be found by using flying skillfully.
Conversely a zone designed to not allow flying could have obstacles, downdrafts, areas where you are shot down constantly, or for which you are rewarded for staying on the ground.

What we would get out of this is what I would argue is a better version of flying. Since it would be somewhat based on skill versus the mechanics of the game itself then Blizzard wouldnt need to remove it outside areas where it is absolutely essential it isnt allowed like inside raids or instanced PvP.


Though then again, it would require an almost complete overhaul of the mechanics, which would undoubtedly be opposed by those that prefer the current devmode version of flying and doesnt want to see it removed.

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I don't get what are zones "with flying in mind". Something like Storm Peaks where some places are accessible only by flying? And what is so interesting about that?

Imo current system is pretty good.. if they would introduced flying to Maw in 9.2.

There isnt really anything interesting regarding zones like that outside them looking distinct. In practice all they do is change the areas you blindly skip past with ground mounts into areas you have to skip past with flying.
Storm Peaks looks great and has a kickass soundtrack, but in practice the entire zone is just a collection of platforms broken up by empty space and long flight times.

[Cosmic Janitor]

It could if it was designed better, but it isn't.

The problem is simply that Blizzard designs their zones in a lazy way, because they know you won't be able to fly while they want to stretch the content out. Once it's obsolete because the next content is current they just drop it. The zones aren't designed better, because Blizzard chose to use their lazy way out with pathfinder, as it helps them milk as much engagement from people. Without gating flying with pathfinder they would simply have to account for enemies to have simple AA defenses.. like proper forts.

Also even if you could skip past all content, in most cases that wouldn't even be an issue. On the large mono-faction servers you just have everyone around kill stuff for you, if you are there to kill stuff flying won't get you closer to your goal and if you need to interact with something then that is simply a problem of mechanics they shoot themselves in the foot with (golem/druids). The cases where that is actually an issue are few and far between in the open world, rare enough that they could employ propper design instead.

So all in all, the issue is simply home made by Blizzard.

[Sondrelk]

The problem is simply that Blizzard designs their zones in a lazy way, because they know you won't be able to fly while they want to stretch the content out. Once it's obsolete because the next content is current they just drop it. The zones aren't designed better, because Blizzard chose to use their lazy way out with pathfinder, as it helps them milk as much engagement from people. Without gating flying with pathfinder they would simply have to account for enemies to have simple AA defenses.. like proper forts.

Again though, this is down to flying itself being designed wrong on a fundamental level. AA forts would be intriguing since we don't have them, but as I have said before it just flips the switch back to not being able to fly. There simply is no space in the mechanics of flying to have a middle ground between flying and not flying.
There is no way for the game to have something that lets you fly away from the fortress without also letting you fly inside the fortress for instance.

And it really is such a shame since it splits the game down into two parts, one where the open world content can be more creative because of the limitations that the lack of flying gives, and one where Blizzard gives everyone flying and most of the open world content loses most of its relevance since flying in inherently unbalanceable in its current state.

[draugril]

There is no way for the game to have something that lets you fly away from the fortress without also letting you fly inside the fortress for instance.

It would be hilarious to load up into a catapult that shoots you out of the no fly zone in a direction of your choosing.

[TaliaKirana]

Ick at the idea of making using flying mounts super complicated.

[draugril]

Ick at the idea of making using flying mounts super complicated.

Which is your preference - adding some kind of inherent gameplay to mounts, or only functionally being able to use them for half of an expansion's lifespan?

[Sondrelk]

Ick at the idea of making using flying mounts super complicated.

It's not making about making it complicated, it's adding even the most basic level of skill to use it.
To go back to the Sandbox comparision, flying a jet in GTA is not difficult, it might take a couple of attempts to get absolutely right, but if you want it is a mechanic you can get good at. There is a vast stretch between being able to take off in that game and being able to fly between high-rise buildings.

In WoW the flying mechanics are nonexistent. At best you can learn gimmicks or get better at mouse aim moving to shave a second or two off of a flight, but unlike pretty much every other game that has flight its woefully one-dimensional and boring.

[Raetary]

Ick at the idea of making using flying mounts super complicated.

I'd rather they have some complexity and are engaging, than encourage you to alt-tab out of the game while your character auto runs at the speed of sound, 2k yards above sea lvl, avoiding any and every mob and terrain feature, which might as well not exist.

[Nagawithlegs]

If we are being honest, I think one of the reasons flying isn’t in at launch is so that players are forced to check immersive elements the art team put on the ground level of the zones.

I think they need to accept that the mass majority of players don’t care and just want to kill the dragon, get the treasure and log off as quickly as possible. It’s sad but you can’t force people to want to wander around the world. You can maybe get people to hang in certain areas but not the whole world.

[Sondrelk]

If we are being honest, I think one of the reasons flying isn’t in at launch is so that players are forced to check immersive elements the art team put on the ground level of the zones.

I think they need to accept that the mass majority of players don’t care and just want to kill the dragon, get the treasure and log off as quickly as possible. It’s sad but you can’t force people to want to wander around the world. You can maybe get people to hang in certain areas but not the whole world.

You cannot design a game for those who don't want to engage in it though. It might be somewhat acceptable if the thing the players are avoiding is ancilliary to the main game, but this is World of Warcraft, it's supposed to have an engaging open world, and if flying is detrimental to that experience then Blizzard devs have a right to put their foot down and say that you have to accept it.

You wouldnt play a CoD game expecting to never shoot a gun, nor would you play a proper RPG without being railroaded at times.
If the section in question is integral to the game then you cannot just ask the developers to let you skip it, that would go against the entire point.

If someone just wants to raid and pretty much nothing else then the game is still allowed to put a minimum amount of effort required to get to that stage, just as all games are obliged to put a minimum amount of effort to get to the juicy bit.


Besides, this isnt even about removing flying completely. It's about recognizing that the current iteration of flying we have doesnt integrate well into the game at all, and that we should get a revamp of it so it can be less of an "IWIN" button, and more of a movement mechanic.

[Hitei]

You cannot design a game for those who don't want to engage in it though. It might be somewhat acceptable if the thing the players are avoiding is ancilliary to the main game, but this is World of Warcraft, it's supposed to have an engaging open world, and if flying is detrimental to that experience then Blizzard devs have a right to put their foot down and say that you have to accept it.

You wouldnt play a CoD game expecting to never shoot a gun, nor would you play a proper RPG without being railroaded at times.
If the section in question is integral to the game then you cannot just ask the developers to let you skip it, that would go against the entire point.

If someone just wants to raid and pretty much nothing else then the game is still allowed to put a minimum amount of effort required to get to that stage, just as all games are obliged to put a minimum amount of effort to get to the juicy bit.


Besides, this isnt even about removing flying completely. It's about recognizing that the current iteration of flying we have doesnt integrate well into the game at all, and that we should get a revamp of it so it can be less of an "IWIN" button, and more of a movement mechanic.

I think the actual mistake here was probably caving in WoD. They should have doubled down instead of compromising, and just not readded flight, then with Legion they could have started working on a new more immersive high speed transportation system, or even re-implemented flying in superior form down the line. By going the pathfinder route they made it even harder to deal with the flying issue because people got flying back and developed an expectation of "when will flying be added" rather than learning to live without it long term.

[Lady Atia]

I think the actual mistake here was probably caving in WoD. They should have doubled down instead of compromising, and just not readded flight, then with Legion they could have started working on a new more immersive high speed transportation system, or even re-implemented flying in superior form down the line. By going the pathfinder route they made it even harder to deal with the flying issue because people got flying back and developed an expectation of "when will flying be added" rather than learning to live without it long term.

I would rather take a new good feature like housing instead of trying to ruin a working feature aka flying. Thanks.

[Sondrelk]

I think the actual mistake here was probably caving in WoD. They should have doubled down instead of compromising, and just not readded flight, then with Legion they could have started working on a new more immersive high speed transportation system, or even re-implemented flying in superior form down the line. By going the pathfinder route they made it even harder to deal with the flying issue because people got flying back and developed an expectation of "when will flying be added" rather than learning to live without it long term.

Pretty much. Blizzard cannot remove flying completely, if only because some zones need it to function, and there is a massive library of flying mounts that wouldnt be used, but if we hadnt gotten flying back in 6.2 then Blizzard would have needed to actually look at how to reintroduce flying in a way that doesnt have the same inherent flaws as it does. However they ended up caving, which not only made the playerbase expect it back with reneved vigor, but also made it less likely Blizzard will remake it seeing as they already have a compromise solution.

[Hitei]

I would rather take a new good feature like housing instead of trying to ruin a working feature aka flying. Thanks.

But housing isn't a good feature, and flying isn't working.

[Sondrelk]

I would rather take a new good feature like housing instead of trying to ruin a working feature aka flying. Thanks.

So WoD then? With customizable player housing that has your pets wander around, and a stable for your pets and all that fun stuff?
Player housing would be great if it was made perfectly, but there isnt really any proof that we would get that version, it's more likely we would get Garrisons 2.0 instead.

Flying meanwhile doesnt integrate into the game at all, and the compromise solution we have now doesnt actually satisfy either camp. Those that want flying doesnt get it while its relevant, and those that want better focus on open world content has to see it butchered once flying is introduced.

A flying revamp could finally give a better compromise. One that allows flying to be available from day one, but also doesnt inherently undercut most of the open-world gameplay.

[Lady Atia]

So WoD then? With customizable player housing that has your pets wander around, and a stable for your pets and all that fun stuff?
Player housing would be great if it was made perfectly, but there isnt really any proof that we would get that version, it's more likely we would get Garrisons 2.0 instead.

Flying meanwhile doesnt integrate into the game at all, and the compromise solution we have now doesnt actually satisfy either camp. Those that want flying doesnt get it while its relevant, and those that want better focus on open world content has to see it butchered once flying is introduced.

A flying revamp could finally give a better compromise. One that allows flying to be available from day one, but also doesnt inherently undercut most of the open-world gameplay.

More like Valheim but brought into WoW. But yeah, I would love it if my pets could run around my house (but maybe let me choose which ones). Same goes for a stable - but only if I can customize it 100%.

Just imagine how cool this could be:

[Nagawithlegs]

Considering how many furniture and prop doodads already exist in WoW and can be reused for housing, I don't think a housing system would be that insane.

It would NOT be multi-phased-neighborhood like XIV though so people would definitely make that comparison. At the same time it would likely not have the ridiculous housing payment system XIV has so there's that too.

[Raetary]

So WoD then?

No, not like wod.
More like ESO, FF14, SWTOR, BDO, etc.

You know, games with actual player housing.

[Nagawithlegs]

No, not like wod.
More like ESO, FF14, SWTOR, BDO, etc.

You know, games with actual player housing.

Just mention furniture. WoD didn't let you place furniture, all those games do.

You just need a phased area you own and can place and move decorations in. That's it.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

If we are being honest, I think one of the reasons flying isn’t in at launch is so that players are forced to check immersive elements the art team put on the ground level of the zones.

I think they need to accept that the mass majority of players don’t care and just want to kill the dragon, get the treasure and log off as quickly as possible. It’s sad but you can’t force people to want to wander around the world. You can maybe get people to hang in certain areas but not the whole world.

I feel like they've outright said that before. That one reason is so as not to cheapen the Art Team's work by having you just fly over all their hard work.