1. #63881
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    I think this'll be a good thing, honestly. I recall that in WarCraft III, the Alliance was actually generally characterized not too dissimilarly from the direction of the Turalyon-led Alliance we're seeing now. The anti-Dragon racism is a little awkward, but it's at least the right spirit for a return to form and simultaneous realignment of certain traits.
    Turalyon definitely needs new armor though if he's going to be Alliance poster boy.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I wonder when we will finally see the unveiled Slime Saber mount?

  2. #63882
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Well I think he did a great job with that. BFA's biggest problems got corrected and Dragonflight already looks 10000 times better than whatever BfA was (which is a shame because BfA had soooo much potential ...). And I actually enjoyed everything from Shadowlands as soon as it was clear that we would get Sylvanas back.
    While I’d agree dragonflight I looking better that would be us actually getting back on the road with shadowlands being the corse correction where he hit all the trees with things like making chronicles not the correct canon it was meant to be, making the jailer and others 3D printed, every thing with the first ones, ruining beliefs of every single race around the after life, never explaining the huge amount of ghost or other peaks into the after life from classic-BFA which makes no sense with shadowlands lore, ect.

    We might be back on track and that track doesn’t look half bad but all those dents and dings from us getting there still lower the quality of the whole thing by a huge margin.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  3. #63883
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    I expect the longterm Turalyon story to not be Lol Yellow Garrosh but a "temptation" arc with Yrel/Lothraxion/Scarlets/Xe'ra/Xe'ras Boss? trying to get him to go crazy with power and seeing him struggle with it, but eventually beat it. Maybe he'll save Yrel at the cost of his life? Who knows.

    He's going to be the closest thing Alliance will ever have to Bad Warchief but I don't think it will be that simple. And I'm not sure he'll even take Stormwind because... it looks like it's getting beautified soon.
    Based on his portrayal in 7.3's Shadows of Argus, as well as Before the Storm, and Shadows Rising I don't think Turalyon is really going to be as xenophobic and dictatorial as many people seem to think. Mind you, as a result of his long absence from Azeroth fighting the Legion he does carry some baggage that is a product of his time (his dim view of Orcs in general, his views of dragons, etc.) in the Second War, he's shown a marked tendency to overcome both dogmatic beliefs and ideals in a short time. His temperate view of the Forsaken, his willingness to accept Illidan as an ally despite his murder of Xe'ra (understandable or not), and even his continued love for Alleria despite her involvement with the Void and its antithesis to the Light all point to a personality that's more than able to overcome prejudice and still limber enough to accept new truths.

    While I think a High King Turalyon would definitely be more militant and proactive than Anduin, for example, I don't think that will extend toward autocracy or outright hostility for its own sake. Turalyon seems aware of his own deficits when it comes to modern Azeroth's political landscapes - and that very awareness will likely temper his movements going forward.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  4. #63884
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    Turalyon definitely needs new armor though if he's going to be Alliance poster boy.
    I do wonder what that would look like—I think it makes sense for him to have Lightforged armor and to potentially even integrate it into the higher levels of the Alliance, but I suppose he could use a more Alliance-traditional set of armor.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Based on his portrayal in 7.3's Shadows of Argus, as well as Before the Storm, and Shadows Rising I don't think Turalyon is really going to be as xenophobic and dictatorial as many people seem to think. Mind you, as a result of his long absence from Azeroth fighting the Legion he does carry some baggage that is a product of his time (his dim view of Orcs in general, his views of dragons, etc.) in the Second War, he's shown a marked tendency to overcome both dogmatic beliefs and ideals in a short time. His temperate view of the Forsaken, his willingness to accept Illidan as an ally despite his murder of Xe'ra (understandable or not), and even his continued love for Alleria despite her involvement with the Void and its antithesis to the Light all point to a personality that's more than able to overcome prejudice and still limber enough to accept new truths.

    While I think a High King Turalyon would definitely be more militant and proactive than Anduin, for example, I don't think that will extend toward autocracy or outright hostility for its own sake. Turalyon seems aware of his own deficits when it comes to modern Azeroth's political landscapes - and that very awareness will likely temper his movements going forward.
    I generally agree—I think that Turalyon seems harder than Anduin, but he's not a frothing fanatic. He's always seemed fairly tame and could put aside his frustrations with all sorts of things—he seems to still care for Alleria despite her change in course, he tolerates Orcs when necessary, etc. He is a fairly pragmatic and tame person, all things considered.

    I think his change in the course of the Alliance's leadership would probably simply be towards a more militant approach, but not strictly a lunatic dictatorship Garrosh-style. I think he'll be more assertive and try to remobilize them, potentially even restoring their original military hierarchy and move away from the royalist approach they currently have. He was, and is, Supreme Commander, and I figure that the "High King" thing may not even last for very long. I do expect a more assertive, less bland-as-paint Alliance that actually does anything, but I don't think that they will go full Garrosh. If anything, the Alliance will simply become better from a narrative standpoint instead of Anduin and Friends going around making everybody get along.

  5. #63885
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    If Turalyon gets power to do something weird with Stormwind it's 100% going to be based on the appearance of Yrel's Lightbound. This may even be caused by Lothraxion, which SL sets up as being a double agent and with the Nathrezim continuing on as a villain post Jailer will likely be a big character again.
    I'm hoping that Yrel only gets relevant again if they dare using her character as the protagonist of another game or a tv show telling her rise to the light and how the purge of Draenor started. She's got the potential for a decent narrative.

    Turalyon doesn't need any trigger to make mistakes or too extreme decisions. He's human and at the head of the strongest army on Azeroth and at the same time his stormwind people are suffering from the highest number of refugees there is (gilnean, void elves, night elves, army of the light, tushui). Stromgarde has been retaken by the alliance, Lordaeron has been retaken by the horde, he stated at the start of shadowlands that the alliance has to expand again in order to protect itself. Let see what he can do then

  6. #63886
    The best thing with the Alliance I have seen is that, when the Stormwind Guard confront the Dracthyr, they are all wearing their regular WoD guard set instead of that horrible mismatch armor from BFA. No idea who let that happen.

  7. #63887
    The Lightbringer Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    While I’d agree dragonflight I looking better that would be us actually getting back on the road with shadowlands being the corse correction where he hit all the trees with things like making chronicles not the correct canon it was meant to be, making the jailer and others 3D printed, every thing with the first ones, ruining beliefs of every single race around the after life, never explaining the huge amount of ghost or other peaks into the after life from classic-BFA which makes no sense with shadowlands lore, ect.

    We might be back on track and that track doesn’t look half bad but all those dents and dings from us getting there still lower the quality of the whole thing by a huge margin.
    Where is the difference between the Eternal Ones bodies being 3D printed (they still have unique souls and need them to be more than automa) and most races in WoW being literal robots that got fleshy thanks to the Old Gods?

    Also I don't really care about "beliefs" and I actually enjoy that the answer to the afterlife is different from the ideas of the races - because why should mortal beings be right about the afterlife if they never were there? It's like .... if some kind of gods *would* exist in real life, I'm 100% sure they would look like nothing you could even imagine. For sure not like some people thousands of years ago thought they would be lol.

    Also, the shadowlands are infinite, so any past glimpses at them would still be valid. Either that, or they were just pocket dimensions like Helheim. Or maybe the shaman who told you about said afterlife just smoked too much old toby?^^
    Last edited by Lady Atia; 2022-07-21 at 03:16 PM.

  8. #63888
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    While I’d agree dragonflight I looking better that would be us actually getting back on the road with shadowlands being the corse correction where he hit all the trees with things like making chronicles not the correct canon it was meant to be, making the jailer and others 3D printed, every thing with the first ones, ruining beliefs of every single race around the after life, never explaining the huge amount of ghost or other peaks into the after life from classic-BFA which makes no sense with shadowlands lore, ect.

    We might be back on track and that track doesn’t look half bad but all those dents and dings from us getting there still lower the quality of the whole thing by a huge margin.
    I don't think this is true, as a lot of afterlives weren't shown. In fact they purposefully withheld the shaman afterlives, meaning they may not even be in the Shadowlands to begin with (possibly an "in-between" realm like Ardenweald?)

  9. #63889
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    I think his change in the course of the Alliance's leadership would probably simply be towards a more militant approach, but not strictly a lunatic dictatorship Garrosh-style. I think he'll be more assertive and try to remobilize them, potentially even restoring their original military hierarchy and move away from the royalist approach they currently have. He was, and is, Supreme Commander, and I figure that the "High King" thing may not even last for very long. I do expect a more assertive, less bland-as-paint Alliance that actually does anything, but I don't think that they will go full Garrosh. If anything, the Alliance will simply become better from a narrative standpoint instead of Anduin and Friends going around making everybody get along.
    I could foresee a Regent or High King Turalyon working primarily to shore up the Alliances defenses first and foremost, eager to re-establish old strongholds and establish new fortifications to protect Alliance territory and holdings. As with his approach to the Gathering in Before the Storm, his general philosophy seems to boil down to "hope for the best but expect the worst" and so on. For Dragonflight specifically, I think Turalyon would be keen to have the Alliance establish a defendable redoubt on the Isles posthaste - both due to his distrust of the Horde in general, and both to observe the area and liaise with the Dragonflights' leadership personally. Of course, this could also be seen as an implicit claim on lands that manifestly belong to neither the Alliance nor the Horde, being ancestral land that the dragons claim as their own. All kinds of room for political disagreements and even minor conflicts to rise up if Turalyon's quick posturing is read as an encroachment on sovereign territory (by either the Aspects or the Primals, that is).
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  10. #63890
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    Even if SL's overall story sucked, are people still mad about BFA when a lot of the critiques like "Sylvanas didn't get punished"/"Tyrande didn't do anything" ended up being untrue? The fact that Kul Tiras beat Zandalar is still really interesting to me and that status quo got rocked to its very core with several races improving from their Cata states overall.

    I think the only race that came out of BFA/SL worse is Goblins, because replacing Gallywix misses the point entirely.
    The main issues are still true, even if they have kinda, sorta, not really been fixed by now.

    Teldrassil burning down was still not much more than shock value. And the reprisal on Undercity afterwards didn't do much more than ensure noone was happy.

    Tyrande gaining the abilities of the Night Warrior still didn't mean squat in the actual story of BfA.

    The first raid was still meaningless to the Alliance, and the idea that the Alliance got the two boss raid in Stormsong as a consolation is laughable at best.

    The big deal made about ensuring the Alliance gets the Kul Tiran navy, and the Horde gets the Zandalari one is entirely pointless outside a single boss fight in Battle for Dazar'alor. Halfway through both navies are literally made into splinters, and the last patch takes place in a desert and landlocked valley.

    The big deal Saurfang makes about the Horde being in a cycle of violence is stopped dead in its tracks by Anduin despite it being an absolutely valid point to make, with a lot of pathos to be extracted narratively.

    And of course: Sylvanas' disappears in 8.2.5, leaving the faction war storyline without a proper ending despite the main conflict being set up at every turn being Alliance Vs Horde.
    This then leads into N'zoth being utterly wasted in a single patch because he simply doesn't have enough direct buildup in the actual expansion, which simultaneously drags down with it other stuff like a potential Makrura connection, or the return of the Mantid being delegated to a single week a month, with only a bare bones questline to explain what is supposed to be their entire reason to exist as a species. They don't even get to be featured in the final raid despite supposedly being the priests of the Old Gods according to the lore books.


    So yes, the story of BfA still sucks. Even if some of it got explained that still leaves the actual expansion a hot mess.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  11. #63891
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I could foresee a Regent or High King Turalyon working primarily to shore up the Alliances defenses first and foremost, eager to re-establish old strongholds and establish new fortifications to protect Alliance territory and holdings. As with his approach to the Gathering in Before the Storm, his general philosophy seems to boil down to "hope for the best but expect the worst" and so on. For Dragonflight specifically, I think Turalyon would be keen to have the Alliance establish a defendable redoubt on the Isles posthaste - both due to his distrust of the Horde in general, and both to observe the area and liaise with the Dragonflights' leadership personally. Of course, this could also be seen as an implicit claim on lands that manifestly belong to neither the Alliance nor the Horde, being ancestral land that the dragons claim as their own. All kinds of room for political disagreements and even minor conflicts to rise up if Turalyon's quick posturing is read as an encroachment on sovereign territory (by either the Aspects or the Primals, that is).
    I don't think Turalyon will make any moves until the next eventual EK/Kalimdor expansion. We may see something similar to Cata Ashenvale in scope, though maybe not as strictly faction v faction, but somewhere on the main continents where he's trying to expand the territories.

    The general "vibe" of a more militant Alliance will definitely show through however. I expect a lot less pop culture and a lot more "go kill ten boars on our territory lines, for the Alliance!"

  12. #63892
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    There really isn't any good point you can conclusively state a new era of WoW started. Cats was a big shakeup for sure, but as I mentioned before, WotLK is a vastly different kind of game to TBC, and MoP is vastly different to Cata.

    It always tends to come down to players desperately trying to justify not being into the game anymore by setting arbitrary lines for when the game stopped being good.
    Agree with you completely. Its a bit of Theseus's ship going on. At what point have we replaced enough of WoW to start considering something new.

    I get why people feel like DF is a new era. BfA and Shadowlands made little to no changes to the core of the game. But as you stated, most of WoW's expansions made significant changes over time. The past two expansions are really just outliers. So I don't personally think of it as a new era, just WoW returning to normal. Which is a great thing imo.

  13. #63893
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    The general "vibe" of a more militant Alliance will definitely show through however. I expect a lot less pop culture and a lot more "go kill ten boars on our territory lines, for the Alliance!"
    That seems more in-line with Turalyon's characterization than "lol Yellow Garrosh"—the Cold War-esque paranoia and territorial defensiveness seems more strictly like what would make sense.

  14. #63894
    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    Agree with you completely. Its a bit of Theseus's ship going on. At what point have we replaced enough of WoW to start considering something new.

    I get why people feel like DF is a new era. BfA and Shadowlands made little to no changes to the core of the game. But as you stated, most of WoW's expansions made significant changes over time. The past two expansions are really just outliers. So I don't personally think of it as a new era, just WoW returning to normal. Which is a great thing imo.
    BFA absolutely made core changes to the world and lore of the game. Huge changes. Arguably more than any expansion prior.

    Mechanically? Not so much.

  15. #63895
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Where is the difference between the Eternal Ones bodies being 3D printed (they still have unique souls and need them to be more than automa) and most races in WoW being literal robots that got fleshy thanks to the Old Gods?
    the difference is that the mortal races are more or less a cosmic mistake never actually meant to be while the eternals are meant to be older then mortal time and gods of the after life suppose to keep all reality running smoothly. To just have them just be robots takes away from the core reason we should care about any of there realms or the after life process at all as it can just be changed on a whim with no actual consequences like we did with pelages.

    The shoddy state of the street life pretty much turns them from needed gods to keep the after life in check into just another cosmic mistake.

    Also I don't really care about "beliefs" and I actually enjoy that the answer to the afterlife is different from the ideas of the races - because why should mortal beings be right about the afterlife if they never were there? It's like .... if some kind of gods *would* exist in real life, I'm 100% sure they would look like nothing you could even imagine. For sure not like some people thousands of years ago thought they would be lol.
    we have had beings come from the after life and tell the living about it since WC3 and it has come
    Up in almost every expan pre Sl, orcs whole religion is about talking to there ancestors in the after life. the people of Azeroth should absolutely have an idea about he after life and how there religions fit into it, but SL throws all of that out of the window.

    Also, the shadowlands are infinite, so any past glimpses at them would still be valid. Either that, or they were just pocket dimensions like Helheim.
    except they can’t as things like the light aren’t part of the shadowlands so all those light based ghost like uther in the plague lands simply can’t exist as well as the orc focused afterlife not existing as we know from the sylvanas book that family’s and loved ones didn’t get to stay together in death.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  16. #63896
    The Lightbringer Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    the difference is that the mortal races are more or less a cosmic mistake never actually meant to be while the eternals are meant to be older then mortal time and gods of the after life suppose to keep all reality running smoothly. To just have them just be robots takes away from the core reason we should care about any of there realms or the after life process at all as it can just be changed on a whim with no actual consequences like we did with pelages.

    The shoddy state of the street life pretty much turns them from needed gods to keep the after life in check into just another cosmic mistake.

    we have had beings come from the after life and tell the living about it since WC3 and it has come
    Up in almost every expan pre Sl, orcs whole religion is about talking to there ancestors in the after life. the people of Azeroth should absolutely have an idea about he after life and how there religions fit into it, but SL throws all of that out of the window.

    except they can’t as things like the light aren’t part of the shadowlands so all those light based ghost like uther in the plague lands simply can’t exist as well as the orc focused afterlife not existing as we know from the sylvanas book that family’s and loved ones didn’t get to stay together in death.
    I thought that bit was just a lie from the Jailer to get Sylvie on board? We defo see f.e. the two gay deers in Ardenweald and they are still together.

  17. #63897
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    except they can’t as things like the light aren’t part of the shadowlands so all those light based ghost like uther in the plague lands simply can’t exist as well as the orc focused afterlife not existing as we know from the sylvanas book that family’s and loved ones didn’t get to stay together in death.
    FWIW, this is a lie told by the Jailer to manipulate Sylvanas. In some cases it actually happens (Draka and Durotan) but it is not always what happens.

    As for the Light ghosts, Uther's ghost is up in the air: his death animation IMPLIES his soul was split into two halves, which may explain the light copy that shows up in Wrath, but at the same time it may have just been the part that went to Bastion.

    Regardless of the Uther stuff which may be a huge retcon they don't care about: some souls DO go to the Light, which is not part of the Shadowlands, just like some souls go back to the Void and other cosmic areas. That isn't breaking lore.

  18. #63898
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I could foresee a Regent or High King Turalyon working primarily to shore up the Alliances defenses first and foremost, eager to re-establish old strongholds and establish new fortifications to protect Alliance territory and holdings. As with his approach to the Gathering in Before the Storm, his general philosophy seems to boil down to "hope for the best but expect the worst" and so on. For Dragonflight specifically, I think Turalyon would be keen to have the Alliance establish a defendable redoubt on the Isles posthaste - both due to his distrust of the Horde in general, and both to observe the area and liaise with the Dragonflights' leadership personally. Of course, this could also be seen as an implicit claim on lands that manifestly belong to neither the Alliance nor the Horde, being ancestral land that the dragons claim as their own. All kinds of room for political disagreements and even minor conflicts to rise up if Turalyon's quick posturing is read as an encroachment on sovereign territory (by either the Aspects or the Primals, that is).
    That's my general assumption—he seems like a preparatory leader, something a little Cold War-esque. He doesn't want war, simply to maintain a persistent upper hand for leverage and in case of an attack from the other side. It is possible his territorial ambitions could become more outwardly aggressive, but it would otherwise be out-of-character for his expansionism to become too militant, or for him to end up too close to the (alleged) behavior to Yrel on Draenor. Of course, the Lightforged under him are a different story—we know that they're willing to work with the Ashvane's prisons and convert prisoners of war against their will. They may require some restraint, else they spill out and start taking lack of refusal as permission.

    There's also the matter of the Scarlet Brotherhood—I imagine they may have some role in Dragonflight, given that their leader is implicitly a Black Dragon, though Turalyon's paranoia and preemptive action regarding the Dracthyr makes me think that any attempt to manipulate him on their part simply won't go through. It's likely that they'll try to make him a pawn, but he'll likely be a step ahead of them on that.

    Either way, I think that your general characterization is my interpretation, too. Turalyon is a sort of Cold War-type leader who wants to maintain a persistent upper hand and may strike if it comes to it, but likely has no outwardly imperial policies.

  19. #63899
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    I don't think this is true, as a lot of afterlives weren't shown. In fact they purposefully withheld the shaman afterlives, meaning they may not even be in the Shadowlands to begin with (possibly an "in-between" realm like Ardenweald?)
    Light based after life’s don’t exist as the light is an outside force, so that’s humans dwarfs goats high/blood elf and undead religion ruined.

    And after like where all the ancestors go don’t exist as the sylvanas book tells us no family’s are left intact let alone cultures, so that’s orcs ruined.

    The dead staying with the living on Azeroth even if not in a tangible state is gone with the grimoire telling us Carine and his wife are in oroboros, so that’s the Cows ruined.

    Pretty much h the only culture left intact is the night elfs and there wisp and even that is damaged as it turns out elune can just say fuck it and prevent the wisp from coming back sending them to the shadowlands.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  20. #63900
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Light based after life’s don’t exist as the light is an outside force, so that’s humans dwarfs goats high/blood elf and undead religion ruined.
    Untrue. The Light can invite the dead to join it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    And after like where all the ancestors go don’t exist as the sylvanas book tells us no family’s are left intact let alone cultures, so that’s orcs ruined.
    That's explicitly a lie. In fact, it's suggested that Durotan is in that exact place.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    The dead staying with the living on Azeroth even if not in a tangible state is gone with the grimoire telling us Carine and his wife are in oroboros, so that’s the Cows ruined.
    At that particular time, but we know that's not always the case—Cairne was actually seen in a spiritual form doing that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Pretty much h the only culture left intact is the night elfs and there wisp and even that is damaged as it turns out elune can just say fuck it and prevent the wisp from coming back sending them to the shadowlands.
    That doesn't contradict anything, though.
    Last edited by Le Conceptuel; 2022-07-21 at 03:39 PM.

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