1. #64121
    Core systems overhauls happening every three expansions (counting vanilla as one) is definitely a pattern at this point, though it's too early to say how much different Dragonflight will be. Cataclysm and Legion both overhauled classes pretty drastically; I'm curious to see if the new talent system has a similar effect or if most classes will continue to feel like alterations on their Legion iterations.

  2. #64122
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    ??? Illidan had nothing to do with Turalyon. Xe'ra could not even know they'd meet. I don't get the spin that X'era is an evil mastermind. Her one act that is evil is against Illidan and that can be fully accounted to an obsession created over millenia due to the fatalistic nature of Light-based divination, something we see Velen also struggled with but overcame.
    And it would be a disappointment in storytelling if AU Yrel is depicted as unequivocally evil. The orcs of Draenor under Geyarah have no credibility. They look like a caricature of postmodernist morality; you are somehow supposed to take their side simply and only because they are the OTHER even though every complaint presented indirectly and thus through excessive bias from Yrel's side is perfectly in line with what we can expect from Draenor orcs; they HAVE caused the destruction of the ecosystem before, the Draenei have every right to be suspicious of them after an attempt at genocide yet somehow we are supposed to assume that they are the evil fascists which is a tempting narrative but far too heavy handed.
    I agree. I think that it's very easy to question whether or not the Draenei actually struck first, given the history of the Iron Horde.

  3. #64123
    I don't really think DF is the "start of a new era", even if the devs implied it with what they said about the end of Arthas and the Jailer. It feels more like a prequel to the new era, which would start with something evergreen like a world revamp, with how the Horde and Alliance is now (basically swapped places with leadership styles) and how all the racial stories have been updated to a cliffhanger save for Night Elves, which looks to finish its build up in DF.

    Like, it doesn't look like any racial story will matter besides Dracthyr and Night Elves in this expansion. Once those two stories conclude here, then it is the time to follow up on things like the Forsaken and the Scarlets.

    I don't think that BFA or Dragonflight will be the mandatory first expansion for newcomers next expansion, but that there will actually be EK/Kalimdor content for leveling up. The fourth war and Sylvanas no longer really matter as we are now focusing on their effects.

  4. #64124
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    I don't really think DF is the "start of a new era", even if the devs implied it with what they said about the end of Arthas and the Jailer. It feels more like a prequel to something evergreen like a world revamp, with how the Horde and Alliance is now (basically swapped places with leadership styles) and how all the racial stories have been updated save for Night Elves, which looks to finish its build up in DF.

    Like, it doesn't look like any racial story will matter besides Dracthyr and Night Elves in this expansion. Once those two stories conclude here, then it is the time to follow up on things like the Forsaken and the Scarlets.
    My general feeling is similar. This expansion isn't strictly "filler", but it is one which is focused on a very specific set of plots that probably isn't going to start anything remarkable unless something funny happens with Galakrond or Murozond.

  5. #64125
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    My general feeling is similar. This expansion isn't strictly "filler", but it is one which is focused on a very specific set of plots that probably isn't going to start anything remarkable unless something funny happens with Galakrond or Murozond.
    It isn't filler in that the aspects coming back with powers is likely going to have an effect on Azeroth and the plot (and beyond the plot, it will LIKELY have full content for an expansion). But I don't think anything is going to seriously affect Azeroth besides that, and especially not EK/Kalimdor.

  6. #64126
    Mechagnome Berkilak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    My general feeling is similar. This expansion isn't strictly "filler", but it is one which is focused on a very specific set of plots that probably isn't going to start anything remarkable unless something funny happens with Galakrond or Murozond.
    At the very least, it seems like the start of a new mechanical era. They are very cognizantly laying the foundation for the future.

  7. #64127
    Quote Originally Posted by Murlocos View Post
    Core systems overhauls happening every three expansions (counting vanilla as one) is definitely a pattern at this point, though it's too early to say how much different Dragonflight will be. Cataclysm and Legion both overhauled classes pretty drastically; I'm curious to see if the new talent system has a similar effect or if most classes will continue to feel like alterations on their Legion iterations.
    It's more every two expansions honestly.

    Vanilla and TBC with open world focus. Then WotLK and Cata with the raid or die mentality. Then you have MoP and WoD with even heavier focus on being an Action RPG, then finally Legion and BfA with focus on infinite grinds at endgame.
    SL is a bit of an outlier in this in that it fits better with Legion and BfA than it does with DF, but that is really just because of the talent tree revamp and the lack of external power, but even with that I would say SL is closer to DF than to BfA.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  8. #64128
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    It isn't filler in that the aspects coming back with powers is likely going to have an effect on Azeroth and the plot (and beyond the plot, it will LIKELY have full content for an expansion). But I don't think anything is going to seriously affect Azeroth besides that, and especially not EK/Kalimdor.
    I figure this is the jumping-off point into the meat of the new Azeroth, so-to-speak. This expansion is probably going to get the ball rolling – a prequel, as you said – and then all the little bits being built up will culminate in the next expansion, which will show the more global effects of the events here and in SL.

  9. #64129
    I will say the one racial story that doesn't seem relevant to DF and doesn't really have something set up in BFA or SL is Orcs. Besides Thrall... there's no real ball to play with here, though maybe that's the point? They may just focus on them expanding their civilization on Kalimdor.

    Trolls have Vol'jin loa and Zandalari ties, Tauren have the Grimtotem coming back. Forsaken have the Scarlets coming back (see a pattern?), and Belves are being used as the forefront of the Horde for right now.

    Orcs... nothing really at the moment.

    There's even something for every Alliance race. Humans have Turalyon and maybe the nobles coming back as an important plot. Gnomes have their new kingdom. Dwarves have a stronger presence and titanic stuff coming back. Draenei have Yrel and Worgen just got Gilneas back. Nelves are self-explanatory.
    Last edited by Cheezits; 2022-07-21 at 02:17 PM.

  10. #64130
    Quote Originally Posted by Berkilak View Post
    At the very least, it seems like the start of a new mechanical era. They are very cognizantly laying the foundation for the future.
    These changes will certainly accumulate—makes me excited to see where it goes for the first time in a while.

  11. #64131
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    I don't really think DF is the "start of a new era", even if the devs implied it with what they said about the end of Arthas and the Jailer. It feels more like a prequel to the new era, which would start with something evergreen like a world revamp, with how the Horde and Alliance is now (basically swapped places with leadership styles) and how all the racial stories have been updated to a cliffhanger save for Night Elves, which looks to finish its build up in DF.

    Like, it doesn't look like any racial story will matter besides Dracthyr and Night Elves in this expansion. Once those two stories conclude here, then it is the time to follow up on things like the Forsaken and the Scarlets.

    I don't think that BFA or Dragonflight will be the mandatory first expansion for newcomers next expansion, but that there will actually be EK/Kalimdor content for leveling up. The fourth war and Sylvanas no longer really matter as we are now focusing on their effects.
    I consider it a fresh start in that we've been following the same unbroken narrative thread since MoP until now. The narrative threads of everything happening in SL can be directly traced back bit by bit all the way to Garrosh escaping to alt Draenor, every expansion directly tying into the next. This is the first time in a decade where an expansion got to actually end and not feel like it's just immediate setup for the next one with no time to rest.

  12. #64132
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    What you're suggesting is more along the lines of using "Elf" to refer to a particular breed of "Elf", then using a wholly different word for the other breeds. That's quite different. Why would they use "Aqir" to refer to a specific specimen? Among the breeds of "Duck", there isn't one that is simply called "Duck".

    Of course, you could use that as a blanket, but as you said, that doesn't mean their evolution didn't diverge over time instead of those groups being preexisting in the same sense that High Elves only evolved after separating from the Night Elves.
    "Aqir" is used to refer to a specific species of entities, the progenitors of the nerubians, mantid, and qiraji. In that sense, it's not really a catch-all or category name for Azeroth's various sentient insectoid races, and some true aqiri still exist today such as Zek'voz. Similarly, the Kaldorei (Night Elves) are the progenitors for the rest of the elven species who exist on Azeroth today - though, unlike the aqiri's many offshoots, there hasn't been a huge number of phenotype differences in the various elven extractions (save for the mutated Felblood, Fal'dorei, and the undead San'layn).
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  13. #64133
    Quote Originally Posted by Murlocos View Post
    I consider it a fresh start in that we've been following the same unbroken narrative thread since MoP until now. The narrative threads of everything happening in SL can be directly traced back bit by bit all the way to Garrosh escaping to alt Draenor, every expansion directly tying into the next. This is the first time in a decade where an expansion got to actually end and not feel like it's just immediate setup for the next one with no time to rest.
    For sure. The fact that the villains of the first raid are an OC Grimtotem and a fancy protodrake are both funny and exciting in terms that they came out of nowhere and, so far in the alpha, are set up very well (their motivations are crystal clear too).

    As for the Aqir debate, the Scythid don't seem intelligent/sentient and I am going to assume that they are simply the bug race that existed before the first Old Gods got their hands on them.

  14. #64134
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaumanKing View Post
    The fact that a man like Turalyon is popular with both nobles and soldiers is alarming. The Alliance could easily turn into a fascist-esque police state. You can see the seeds of this in how Turalyon and regular guardsmen treat dracthyr refugees. It's like the Garrosh situation all over again.
    The human army is in shambles post BFA so unless he’s going to get support from
    Another part of the alliance there’s no way he’d have the power to turn the alliance or even stormwind into an actual police state.

    Between the night elfs gilneans and dwarfs if he tries to act up he’d get smacked down almost instantly unless blizzard just retconned all of there end of BFA alliance lore to increase human army size by a ton.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  15. #64135
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    The human army is in shambles post BFA so unless he’s going to get support from
    Another part of the alliance there’s no way he’d have the power to turn the alliance or even stormwind into an actual police state.
    If Turalyon gets power to do something weird with Stormwind it's 100% going to be based on the appearance of Yrel's Lightbound. This may even be caused by Lothraxion, which SL sets up as being a double agent and with the Nathrezim continuing on as a villain post Jailer will likely be a big character again.

  16. #64136
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    "Aqir" is used to refer to a specific species of entities, the progenitors of the nerubians, mantid, and qiraji. In that sense, it's not really a catch-all or category name for Azeroth's various sentient insectoid races, and some true aqiri still exist today such as Zek'voz. Similarly, the Kaldorei (Night Elves) are the progenitors for the rest of the elven species who exist on Azeroth today - though, unlike the aqiri's many offshoots, there hasn't been a huge number of phenotype differences in the various elven extractions (save for the mutated Felblood, Fal'dorei, and the undead San'layn).
    That's what I was arguing—my interlocutor seemed to think they were just groups of Aqir which took on new names with their new cultures, with their varying physiology only being the result of the preexisting dimorphism of the race. Your post puts what I was saying more eloquently, though.

    The reason I was citing using "Aqir" to refer to a specific specimen was because I think that implicitly suggests what you were saying—if the Aqir were a vast classification, as opposed to a distinct predecessor race, it would be odd for Blizzard to label a particular breed with what my interlocutor stated was a blanket term for all of them.

  17. #64137
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    I don't really think DF is the "start of a new era", even if the devs implied it with what they said about the end of Arthas and the Jailer. It feels more like a prequel to the new era, which would start with something evergreen like a world revamp, with how the Horde and Alliance is now (basically swapped places with leadership styles) and how all the racial stories have been updated to a cliffhanger save for Night Elves, which looks to finish its build up in DF.

    Like, it doesn't look like any racial story will matter besides Dracthyr and Night Elves in this expansion. Once those two stories conclude here, then it is the time to follow up on things like the Forsaken and the Scarlets.

    I don't think that BFA or Dragonflight will be the mandatory first expansion for newcomers next expansion, but that there will actually be EK/Kalimdor content for leveling up. The fourth war and Sylvanas no longer really matter as we are now focusing on their effects.
    I think that between professions and talents they are trying to build sturdy systems that they can actually iterate on and improve instead of completely new systems that slowly get to a good condition only to be voided by the next expac and maybe used as inspiration/salvaged for code. If they manage to get these systems to a good level that means that the following expansions can have a focus on content-facing systems (like Island Expeditions, Torghast or Warfronts) without having that shared by gameplay systems (like every iteration of borrowed power) with simple expansions of the new core. This should make it easier for them to build content-rich expansions in the future. And if they can strike another homerun like with M+, those systems can become core (I still think there is potential for solo/small group instanced content that actually works; the gameplay systems of Torghast with the variety and rewards of Islands).

  18. #64138
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Feels like what? I mean what criteria is that to make it count as WoW 2, Legion brought world quests, mythic plus, revamped professions etc. and wasn't counted as WoW 2 either. I don't see how Dragonflight, which offers less major new stuff, could be seen as that. Dragonflight doesn't change the core gameplay at all, whereas Legion did. And Legion on top of that introduced us to a completely new world / planet with Argus.
    If there was a "WoW 2" then it was Cataclysm since it really started the modernization of the game. Revamping the leveling system, adding masteries, stat normalization, itemization overhaul, adding class homogenization, etc. Not to mention the scrapped Path of the Titans system sounded an awful lot like the first iteration of a borrow power system. Overall it was a much more massive directional shift than anything in DF.

    But even then, I don't think Cataclysm can qualify as WoW 2 anymore than Dragonflight could be called WoW 9. Nothing short of a whole new title should be considered as a genuine sequel at this point

  19. #64139
    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    If there was a "WoW 2" then it was Cataclysm since it really started the modernization of the game. Revamping the leveling system, adding masteries, stat normalization, itemization overhaul, adding class homogenization, etc. Not to mention the scrapped Path of the Titans system sounded an awful lot like the first iteration of a borrow power system. Overall it was a much more massive directional shift than anything in DF.

    But even then, I don't think Cataclysm can qualify as WoW 2 anymore than Dragonflight could be called WoW 9. Nothing short of a whole new title should be considered as a genuine sequel at this point
    In this instance, we're talking less in senses of sequels and more in iterations—vast "eras" of the game.

    I categorize them as:

    Vanilla/TBC/WotLK—The original. These expansions were all tied together by a more open-world, RPG-type system. These expansions shared similar progression systems, environments, and design direction and consisted the three states of the game before the Cataclysm revamp, adding an extra level of commonality.

    Cataclysm/MoP/WoD—This era was defined mostly by a raid-centric game design, a more streamlined but still open-world zone system, and a somewhat memey tone. This was an era of experimentation, in which we saw what I'd consider to be the most new meddling in the precursors to new systems scattered throughout each expansion. The new talent system was another example of a defining feature of this era.

    Legion/BfA/Shadowlands—This era was defined mainly by a streamlined, very theme park-esque leveling experience, introduced the more "scattered" leveling system (though Shadowlands did later abandon this, retaining only elements), and also followed up a more narrative experience in the questing zones. World quests were, in my mind, the main feature of this era that will probably carry forward into the next.

    Dragonflight/11.0/12.0—This era seems to be returning tone-wise to something more resembling Classic, though certain elements of the Cata/MoP/WoD era and Legion/BfA/Shadowlands era carry through—gameplay-wise, it is definitely starting a new era through the new talent system. It's too early to tell exactly how many of these features will be defining for the era, though, so I can't be sure what this will be.

    Of course, this categorization system isn't perfect (for instance, the Mission Tables were introduced at the end of one era and abandoned before the end of another, but I think it's a good way of generally categorizing the periods of history in WoW. Of course, the game's evolution is a constant, ongoing process which happens outside of easily-allocated time periods, but it is something which I think can be generally categorized in some capacity.
    Last edited by Le Conceptuel; 2022-07-21 at 02:34 PM.

  20. #64140
    DF feels like WoW 2.5. Or WoW 3 prepatch.

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