1. #64161
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    FWIW, this is a lie told by the Jailer to manipulate Sylvanas. In some cases it actually happens (Draka and Durotan) but it is not always what happens.

    As for the Light ghosts, Uther's ghost is up in the air: his death animation IMPLIES his soul was split into two halves, which may explain the light copy that shows up in Wrath, but at the same time it may have just been the part that went to Bastion.

    Regardless of the Uther stuff which may be a huge retcon they don't care about: some souls DO go to the Light, which is not part of the Shadowlands, just like some souls go back to the Void and other cosmic areas. That isn't breaking lore.
    I also cant stand that people act like this is some sort of horrible thing everyone would find hellish. I'd say most people would consider finding a anima devourer and ending their own afterlife if they had to deal with 1 specific family member for eternity. and MANY of us would consider spending eternity with ANY of our family eternal punishment.

    and thats not even getting into the idea that like...in real life you tend to move on if a family member dies within a few years. Obviously there are plenty that mourn forever, and even those that 'move on' are still greatly affected by their loved one. 20 years after your wife dies you might be remarried with a new kid. but you expect me to believe mortals wouldnt have moved on in a few thousand years, a few hundred? I've been in bastion for 280 years, why would i care about some man and some woman i knew 3 centuries ago I stoppped talking to when i was a 20 just because i share DNA with them?

    but yea it always irked me that people made a big deal about the afterlife when every afterlife you can think of is hell for someone. i think people are bringing their real world baggage into it because most people dont want to think about what the afterlife would actually be like. Are you happy forever? So you cant experience any other emotion and have no free will? Or is it like real life where you can have bad days? well then its just a 2nd life and not intrinsically good. If you are lumped in with all other souls that means you can be with souls you dont like which makes it terrible. Or if its like Not their actual souls but a copy that exists to make you happy then you are just in some sort of fake matrix simulation and nothing is real?

    Every possible way the afterlife "paradise" could work is hell for someone and people dont want to think about that to hard so they act like "endless grove where you can eat fruit, watch plays and just relax for eternity (and thats how ardenweld worked until the jailer ruined everything) is somehow bad. Oh no I can live in paradise in eternal fields of beauty and have free food, infinite books to read and free weapons training (basically a Weeb paradise) and after a few hundred or thousands years if i get bored i can move on and focus on my new identity in my new life; who cares if i forget who i was in my past life. Yea horrible.
    Romance doesnt detract from a story. Its a Genre, like horror or comedy or adventure. The game was ruined when we got Horror in drustvar or nazmir. It wasnt ruined when we had funny quests. So if you think a little man on man love ruins the game, then yes you are either a homophobe or just a spoil sport that goes "ewww kissing is yucky" like a baby. Furthermore, if a character has never expressed interest in any gender, then its not proof they are straight. straight people are not the default

  2. #64162
    Quote Originally Posted by tristannarutofan View Post
    I also cant stand that people act like this is some sort of horrible thing everyone would find hellish. I'd say most people would consider finding a anima devourer and ending their own afterlife if they had to deal with 1 specific family member for eternity. and MANY of us would consider spending eternity with ANY of our family eternal punishment.
    I think you just have emotional issues and potentially a dysfunctional family. Your manner of thinking is highly abnormal.

  3. #64163
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    I thought that bit was just a lie from the Jailer to get Sylvie on board? We defo see f.e. the two gay deers in Ardenweald and they are still together.
    The book has sylvanas go to countless afterlife’s personally to see if people get to be together in death and she finds none where it is the case, the jailer might have been lying about a lot of stuff but from what we are shown in the novel that wasn’t one of them.

    As to the gay deer, either Ardenweald and they are the one exception of the afterlife’s shown or it’s just wow being inconsistent and the novel retcons them out of existence like new lore tends to do to old lore.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  4. #64164
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    The book has sylvanas go to countless afterlife’s personally to see if people get to be together in death and she finds none where it is the case, the jailer might have been lying about a lot of stuff but from what we are shown in the novel that wasn’t one of them.

    As to the gay deer, either Ardenweald and they are the one exception of the afterlife’s shown or it’s just wow being inconsistent and the novel retcons them out of existence like new lore tends to do to old lore.
    ... or she was specifically being toured around by the Jailer's minions, meaning they'd have an incentive to show her a very limited and skewed version of things?

    You're really stretching now with the retcon bit, too.

  5. #64165
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Untrue. The Light can invite the dead to join it.

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    That's explicitly a lie. In fact, it's suggested that Durotan is in that exact place.

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    At that particular time, but we know that's not always the case—Cairne was actually seen in a spiritual form doing that.

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    That doesn't contradict anything, though.
    thats the other thing. "oh all these mortals beliefs are proven untrue" . Wait you mean that Mortals who by definition dont go to the afterlife (because that would mean dying and coming back) DIDNT understand 100% how the afterlife worked? shocking.

    Like that just ignores what belief is. Yes The tauren BELIEVED their ancestors stayed in the natural realm and guided them. And they were partially correct. Souls move on to a natural realm and can be tapped into through magic. The tauren DO guide their ancestors but they do it through magical connections tot he souls in the shadowlands.

    Its like getting upset when you find out that Nordrassil is a giant root system instead of a tree. That didnt prove your beliefs were wrong, just that they werent accurate. You know, since no one who came up with those beliefs would know, since you CANT know about the afterlife until you die.

    again IMO just people pushing their real world religious hangups onto the lore of the story. Your gods may not be real, the afterlife might not exist or if it doesn it might not work how you think it does. and that scares you. and so this lore exploring those themes in a videa gaime freaks you out.
    Romance doesnt detract from a story. Its a Genre, like horror or comedy or adventure. The game was ruined when we got Horror in drustvar or nazmir. It wasnt ruined when we had funny quests. So if you think a little man on man love ruins the game, then yes you are either a homophobe or just a spoil sport that goes "ewww kissing is yucky" like a baby. Furthermore, if a character has never expressed interest in any gender, then its not proof they are straight. straight people are not the default

  6. #64166
    The Lightbringer Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    The book has sylvanas go to countless afterlife’s personally to see if people get to be together in death and she finds none where it is the case, the jailer might have been lying about a lot of stuff but from what we are shown in the novel that wasn’t one of them.

    As to the gay deer, either Ardenweald and they are the one exception of the afterlife’s shown or it’s just wow being inconsistent and the novel retcons them out of existence like new lore tends to do to old lore.
    The valkyr choose the afterlives they showed her - and since the shadowlands are infinite they would never have to run into one that actually had loved ones together. It was clearly a lie to get her on his side.

    Also new lore > old lore is a thing in most stories. Not everything can be a Song of Ice and Fire.

    #TEAMGIRAFFE

  7. #64167
    They really should've stressed how many afterlives they are/how the main 4 are just the most important, because a lot of players genuinely think people are doomed to become a kyrian, venthyr etc. It was just poor writing and also incorrect expectations for the players (no, putting a lot of floating doors behind the Arbiter doesn't mean everyone's going to "get it")

  8. #64168
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    Quote Originally Posted by tristannarutofan View Post
    thats the other thing. "oh all these mortals beliefs are proven untrue" . Wait you mean that Mortals who by definition dont go to the afterlife (because that would mean dying and coming back) DIDNT understand 100% how the afterlife worked? shocking.

    Like that just ignores what belief is. Yes The tauren BELIEVED their ancestors stayed in the natural realm and guided them. And they were partially correct. Souls move on to a natural realm and can be tapped into through magic. The tauren DO guide their ancestors but they do it through magical connections tot he souls in the shadowlands.

    Its like getting upset when you find out that Nordrassil is a giant root system instead of a tree. That didnt prove your beliefs were wrong, just that they werent accurate. You know, since no one who came up with those beliefs would know, since you CANT know about the afterlife until you die.

    again IMO just people pushing their real world religious hangups onto the lore of the story. Your gods may not be real, the afterlife might not exist or if it doesn it might not work how you think it does. and that scares you. and so this lore exploring those themes in a videa gaime freaks you out.
    This ^^ - you get an internet cookie from me!

    #TEAMGIRAFFE

  9. #64169
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    That's my general assumption—he seems like a preparatory leader, something a little Cold War-esque. He doesn't want war, simply to maintain a persistent upper hand for leverage and in case of an attack from the other side. It is possible his territorial ambitions could become more outwardly aggressive, but it would otherwise be out-of-character for his expansionism to become too militant, or for him to end up too close to the (alleged) behavior to Yrel on Draenor. Of course, the Lightforged under him are a different story—we know that they're willing to work with the Ashvane's prisons and convert prisoners of war against their will. They may require some restraint, else they spill out and start taking lack of refusal as permission.
    I think it would be interesting to see some friction develop between Turalyon and Captain Fareeya, his former second and now the leader of the Lightforged Draenei within the Alliance. Whereas Turalyon is more even-keeled, Fareeya definitely comes across as more fanatical and zealous overall, and definitely willing to creatively interpret commands to serve her ideas and opinions.

    I don't recall the Scarlet Brotherhood/Crusade/Onslaught being led by or connected to a member of the Black Dragonflight though? They had a connection to the Legion via Balnazzar and Mal'Ganis, and Mal'Ganis also connects them to the Mawsworn by dint of the revelation that he originally (and continued) to serve the Jailer as well. As of Cata, it appears the bulk of the Crusade was converted into undeath by Balnazzar and summarily destroyed in the various EPL/Stratholme quest-chains. Am I missing one of the leaders that was later revealed to be a dragon?
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  10. #64170
    Quote Originally Posted by tristannarutofan View Post
    thats the other thing. "oh all these mortals beliefs are proven untrue" . Wait you mean that Mortals who by definition dont go to the afterlife (because that would mean dying and coming back) DIDNT understand 100% how the afterlife worked? shocking.

    Like that just ignores what belief is. Yes The tauren BELIEVED their ancestors stayed in the natural realm and guided them. And they were partially correct. Souls move on to a natural realm and can be tapped into through magic. The tauren DO guide their ancestors but they do it through magical connections tot he souls in the shadowlands.

    Its like getting upset when you find out that Nordrassil is a giant root system instead of a tree. That didnt prove your beliefs were wrong, just that they werent accurate. You know, since no one who came up with those beliefs would know, since you CANT know about the afterlife until you die.

    again IMO just people pushing their real world religious hangups onto the lore of the story. Your gods may not be real, the afterlife might not exist or if it doesn it might not work how you think it does. and that scares you. and so this lore exploring those themes in a videa gaime freaks you out.
    But I just spent my entire argument proving why those beliefs were actually true, and none of them were disproven at all.

    You, conversely, are just making weird, non-sequitur and oddly cynical arguments. Are you okay? It seems like you implicitly just wanted to create a tortured connection to my post so you could rail against religion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I think it would be interesting to see some friction develop between Turalyon and Captain Fareeya, his former second and now the leader of the Lightforged Draenei within the Alliance. Whereas Turalyon is more even-keeled, Fareeya definitely comes across as more fanatical and zealous overall, and definitely willing to creatively interpret commands to serve her ideas and opinions.

    I don't recall the Scarlet Brotherhood/Crusade/Onslaught being led by or connected to a member of the Black Dragonflight though? They had a connection to the Legion via Balnazzar and Mal'Ganis, and Mal'Ganis also connects them to the Mawsworn by dint of the revelation that he originally (and continued) to serve the Jailer as well. As of Cata, it appears the bulk of the Crusade was converted into undeath by Balnazzar and summarily destroyed in the various EPL/Stratholme quest-chains. Am I missing one of the leaders that was later revealed to be a dragon?
    I was suggesting the supposed heir mentioned in this this could be a Black Dragon—it's not confirmed, just common and fairly believable pleblore. It is also entirely possible that the Scarlet Brotherhood is entirely making up their supposed heir. We know fairly certainly that it's not the real heir, though, because we know that Calia had a daughter and not a son.

    As for Fareeya, I'm on the same wavelength there.

  11. #64171
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    I don't think Turalyon will make any moves until the next eventual EK/Kalimdor expansion. We may see something similar to Cata Ashenvale in scope, though maybe not as strictly faction v faction, but somewhere on the main continents where he's trying to expand the territories.

    The general "vibe" of a more militant Alliance will definitely show through however. I expect a lot less pop culture and a lot more "go kill ten boars on our territory lines, for the Alliance!"
    If I recall correctly, the developers have already said Turalyon will be a key player in the Dragonflight narrative as the Alliance deals with its leadership crisis as Anduin remains out of play for the time being. Mind you, I don't think his involvement will involve or lead to a renewed faction conflict or anything, but it definitely seems like Turalyon is going to have an appreciable amount of time in the spotlight.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  12. #64172
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    If I recall correctly, the developers have already said Turalyon will be a key player in the Dragonflight narrative as the Alliance deals with its leadership crisis as Anduin remains out of play for the time being. Mind you, I don't think his involvement will involve or lead to a renewed faction conflict or anything, but it definitely seems like Turalyon is going to have an appreciable amount of time in the spotlight.
    Didn't know about that—I was expecting him to act in the expansion after Dragonflight. I suppose that your idea about him trying to establish a military outpost on the Dragon Isles is looking increasingly plausible, then. There's also the matter of his suspicions regarding the Dragons, which could boil over to a small extent, leading to a straining relationship between the Dragons and Alliance.

  13. #64173
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    FWIW, this is a lie told by the Jailer to manipulate Sylvanas. In some cases it actually happens (Draka and Durotan) but it is not always what happens.
    sylvanas personally looks into countless afterlife’s in the novel she doesn’t take the jailers word at face value and she finds no intact family’s.

    As for the Light ghosts, Uther's ghost is up in the air: his death animation IMPLIES his soul was split into two halves, which may explain the light copy that shows up in Wrath, but at the same time it may have just been the part that went to Bastion.
    we see what happends to both part of uther the light one is shown to go directly to bastion and the one in frostmourns the jailer has, there is no explanation for what’s shown in the plague lends.

    Regardless of the Uther stuff which may be a huge retcon they don't care about: some souls DO go to the Light, which is not part of the Shadowlands, just like some souls go back to the Void and other cosmic areas. That isn't breaking lore.
    it’s not lore breaking its religion breaking, uther morgrain that one farmer in red ridge, all go directly to the shadowlands.

    Every thing light worshipers believe about the after light is wrong with the light not even being part of the after life’s.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  14. #64174
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    sylvanas personally looks into countless afterlife’s in the novel she doesn’t take the jailers word at face value and she finds no intact family’s.

    we see what happends to both part of uther the light one is shown to go directly to bastion and the one in frostmourns the jailer has, there is no explanation for what’s shown in the plague lends.
    tfw no subtext, always explicit statements. Wasn't she still guided by his minions?

    Given the existence of contradicting information from a very recent source, Occam's Razor pretty strongly suggests that there is no explanation other than that Sylvanas was wrong. Taking it to the retcon thing is simply ignoring outside information to reinforce your preexisting belief.
    Last edited by Le Conceptuel; 2022-07-21 at 03:57 PM.

  15. #64175
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    If I recall correctly, the developers have already said Turalyon will be a key player in the Dragonflight narrative as the Alliance deals with its leadership crisis as Anduin remains out of play for the time being. Mind you, I don't think his involvement will involve or lead to a renewed faction conflict or anything, but it definitely seems like Turalyon is going to have an appreciable amount of time in the spotlight.
    They said the prepatch would deal with his new leadership, not so much the actual expansion story AFAIK.

  16. #64176
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Untrue. The Light can invite the dead to join it.
    the light being able to snatch up a Soul with direct Naaru intervention doesn’t change that you don’t actually go there when you die and we know from revendreth that there not part of the after life at all.

    Even having a literal piece of a Naaru with you/killing you isn’t enough to people into the light at death as seen by morgrain.

    That's explicitly a lie. In fact, it's suggested that Durotan is in that exact place.
    did you read this link? Out of the mentions one is just a belief, one is an explicit lie, and one is a interview just saying durotan is happy and dozing have to worry about the world being destroyed “ If everything went great”.

    At that particular time, but we know that's not always the case—Cairne was actually seen in a spiritual form doing that.
    and that would be what retcon means removing old Lore from canon and changing it into something new.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    ... or she was specifically being toured around by the Jailer's minions, meaning they'd have an incentive to show her a very limited and skewed version of things?

    You're really stretching now with the retcon bit, too.
    Sylvanas explicitly picks where they go in the book she’s in complete control not being toured or guided.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  17. #64177
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    the light being able to snatch up a Soul with direct Naaru intervention doesn’t change that you don’t actually go there when you die and we know from revendreth that there not part of the after life at all.
    They're not part of that particular set of default afterlives. What about, say, the Lightforged? They could theoretically go to the Light upon death, and we actually see that directly happen numerous times. We also know from Uuna that the Light seems to have a direct connection to a particular afterlife and an interview outwardly states that the Light can serve as an afterlife, if abnormally for most lifeforms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    did you read this link? Out of the mentions one is just a belief, one is an explicit lie, and one is a interview just saying durotan is happy and dozing have to worry about the world being destroyed “ If everything went great”.
    It literally explicitly says he's potentially in "some kind of endless hunting grounds" and that Draka could join him someday, directly contradicting both of your main premises.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    and that would be what retcon means removing old Lore from canon and changing it into something new.
    Can we get a new logical fallacy exclusively for this forum? "Argumentum ad retconum"—the claim that all evidence contrary to ones argument is, in fact, a retcon and no longer counts.

  18. #64178
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tristannarutofan View Post
    thats the other thing. "oh all these mortals beliefs are proven untrue" . Wait you mean that Mortals who by definition dont go to the afterlife (because that would mean dying and coming back) DIDNT understand 100% how the afterlife worked? shocking.
    Dying and coming back has been a thing since WC3 it’s literally what almost all of the wow religions are built on.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  19. #64179
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Sylvanas explicitly picks where they go in the book she’s in complete control not being toured or guided.
    Yes, she chooses the general location whilst also being entirely herded about by the Jailer and being there on his authority—and, once again, it's stated to be possible for Durotan and Draka to reunite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Dying and coming back has been a thing since WC3 it’s literally what almost all of the wow religions are built on.
    I'd honestly advise against engaging with that guy. He seems to just be trying to bait for anti-religious screeds.

  20. #64180
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    The valkyr choose the afterlives they showed her - and since the shadowlands are infinite they would never have to run into one that actually had loved ones together. It was clearly a lie to get her on his side.

    Also new lore > old lore is a thing in most stories. Not everything can be a Song of Ice and Fire.
    The valkyr take sylvanas any where she wants to go the jailer gives them endless time to look about (with the warning of returning to a skeleton) and tell them to do what she wishes, they aren’t pulling one over on her by only showing her bad places she’s in control the whole time.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

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