1. #64281
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    But they don't do books anymore than are "required to understand the story". The basic story is in the game.
    Arguably, Sylvanas was required for the Shadowlands story to make sense.

    Shadows Rising, I agree.

  2. #64282
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    You didn't need "Shadows Rising" to understand Shadowlands. One could argue that it was actually a waste of money to buy that book because it was that much unimportant to the game. For "Sylvanas" - all it did was fix BfA (which isn't the fault of the current writers lol). Regarding Shadowlands, again there was nothing new in it which we didn't already know from questing in the Shadowlands. And one would argue that it makes sense that our characters don't know the PoV of Sylvanas.
    Yes, you did need it. You knew nothing about what was her motivation to do all the stuff that she did the last couple of expansions, that directly led to Shadowlands. In a hindsight, you might think that it all made sense, but that's hindsight for you...

    And our characters not knowing the PoV of Sylvanas is really not an excuse... By that logic they can just go all-out "vanilla style" on the story and explain it with "but our characters have very limited understanding of what is going on, they just need to do this and this".
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  3. #64283
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaggler View Post
    Not talking about throughput. I really like stuff like Mass Polymorph, Ice Floes being back for all specs and i personally always liked Tempest Shield.
    The problem lies mostly in pathing and the amount of multiple point nodes that just feel bad. Making some of the 3-point-nodes two pointes could already free some points up for fun talents, imho. I also wonder if they couldn't find a better fire capstone than meteor. Depends on balancing I guess, but compared to greater Invis and Shifting power I'd say that's a bit lackluster.
    I think what needs to be removed from the Class Tree is Tome of Antonidas/Rhonin. They very much lock how you can advance if you don't want to lose major throughput. Alternatively they'd have to be placed at a different point that follows a branching point from the middle. Cryo-Freeze and Tempest Barrier should also probably be 2 rank talents. Also the class tree needs a bit more fire and a bit less frost. And really disappointed at no FrostFire.

  4. #64284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    Arguably, Sylvanas was required for the Shadowlands story to make sense.

    Shadows Rising, I agree.
    Mhm, the book was arguably required for her personal story to make sense. But mostly just for the Legion and BfA bits that Afrasiabi wrote to make her an "evil ninja 5D mastermind kekW". The Shadowlands bits? The basic premise is in the Torghast questlines. Sylvanas' makes it quite clear to Anduin that in her eyes, she is an anti-hero who does everything for the greater good in order to re-write a broken, unfair universe. And everyone else around us tells us all the time that the Jailer is a lying manipulating dude (although, in the end, he indeed did what he did for the greater good, which was something I was sure from the get go would be the ending for him - and if I got that from the basic questing, well, looks like I just did understand the story just fine?).

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  5. #64285
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaggler View Post
    Yeah, i was thinking about Before the Storm, but the only thing of relevance that happens, that wasn't portrayed in the game was the death and resurrection of Calia. In the whole scheme of things the Gathering and the first Desolate Council were really minor
    The thing is, reading BtS and leading into BfA early BfA it made sense and felt like it was leading to whatever target Afrasiabi had considered. Yes that Sylvanas was different but she was consistent between BtS, the stories and then the game up to 8.2. Then with 8.2.5 we had a complete break in the narrative. Up to that point I at least felt that BtS was telegraphing a Stormwind Raid. The plot points were there, it's just that the plot got scrapped.

  6. #64286
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I think what needs to be removed from the Class Tree is Tome of Antonidas/Rhonin. They very much lock how you can advance if you don't want to lose major throughput. Alternatively they'd have to be placed at a different point that follows a branching point from the middle. Cryo-Freeze and Tempest Barrier should also probably be 2 rank talents. Also the class tree needs a bit more fire and a bit less frost. And really disappointed at no FrostFire.
    Yeah, those are just bad. Cryo-Freeze and Tempest Barrier would have been my first idea to reduce to 2 points as well. Maybe add Cauterizing blink? Always liked that trait, could be busted with Tempest Barrier though (Could be a choice node?)

    Question is, what you would do with FrostFire Bolt. How would it fit into Fire or Frost (or Arcane)

    The thing is, reading BtS and leading into BfA early BfA it made sense and felt like it was leading to whatever target Afrasiabi had considered. Yes that Sylvanas was different but she was consistent between BtS, the stories and then the game up to 8.2. Then with 8.2.5 we had a complete break in the narrative. Up to that point I at least felt that BtS was telegraphing a Stormwind Raid. The plot points were there, it's just that the plot got scrapped.
    Yeah, of course it made sense. I'm just arguing that with not reading BtS, you weren't missing plot basically. Just a side story. That is, what most of these Novels currently are. Just smaller side stories, which are "nice to know" but not mandatory to understand the overarching plot.

  7. #64287
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    Quote Originally Posted by UndedoKoleda View Post
    Yes, you did need it. You knew nothing about what was her motivation to do all the stuff that she did the last couple of expansions, that directly led to Shadowlands. In a hindsight, you might think that it all made sense, but that's hindsight for you...

    And our characters not knowing the PoV of Sylvanas is really not an excuse... By that logic they can just go all-out "vanilla style" on the story and explain it with "but our characters have very limited understanding of what is going on, they just need to do this and this".
    No, everything we need to know was in that cinematic:


    The book mostly fixed legion/bfa stuff, it barely had any shadowlands bits anyways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaggler View Post
    Yeah, those are just bad. Cryo-Freeze and Tempest Barrier would have been my first idea to reduce to 2 points as well. Maybe add Cauterizing blink? Always liked that trait, could be busted with Tempest Barrier though (Could be a choice node?)

    Question is, what you would do with FrostFire Bolt. How would it fit into Fire or Frost (or Arcane)



    Yeah, of course it made sense. I'm just arguing that with not reading BtS, you weren't missing plot basically. Just a side story. That is, what most of these Novels currently are. Just smaller side stories, which are "nice to know" but not mandatory to understand the overarching plot.
    This, It's not different from watching a marvel movie - consuming everything makes the experience better, of course. But you can just enjoy it fine with just one movie, or in this case, just the expansion itself. None of the books are required for that (anymore). They even state as much on that website for new players.

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  8. #64288
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I'd say Before the Storm but halfway through BfA it nearly felt retconned. It did feel very important during early BfA though, practically setting up a Stormwind Raid. And then with Sylvanas they were all sewn back together like Frankenstein.
    That book was just completely random. It had barely anything to do with what was going on and then - as you said - most of its stuff was retconned or never talked about again. And the book itself was just incredibly boring. I think it's to date the worst Warcraft novel I've read yet and I've read almost all of them.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  9. #64289
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaggler View Post
    Yeah, those are just bad. Cryo-Freeze and Tempest Barrier would have been my first idea to reduce to 2 points as well. Maybe add Cauterizing blink? Always liked that trait, could be busted with Tempest Barrier though (Could be a choice node?)

    Question is, what you would do with FrostFire Bolt. How would it fit into Fire or Frost (or Arcane)
    Frostfire used to be a replacement for either Frostbolt or Fireball that had both of their effects, would proc everything those two proc, had the same DpCT but was slower to cast. If I was adding it to the tree then I'd be changing the Fire and Frost capstones to be strong talents (likely CDs) that interact with Frostbolt or Fireball respectively, letting a FrostFire mage pick both and Frostfire Bolt and thus use a Frost CD with Fire spec or vice versa. But that would require extensive changes to what we see now so I guess it's pointless to discuss sadly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    That book was just completely random. It had barely anything to do with what was going on and then - as you said - most of its stuff was retconned or never talked about again. And the book itself was just incredibly boring. I think it's to date the worst Warcraft novel I've read yet and I've read almost all of them.
    It did have everything to do with what happened immediately after. You could easily reconcile BtS with BfA up to 8.2. We know that they had a hard turn in their plot after 8.2.5 which is when Afrasiabi lost narrative control. So in a timeline were he was not a horrible creep, that book would likely have set up the expansion's plot.

  10. #64290
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    The thing is, reading BtS and leading into BfA early BfA it made sense and felt like it was leading to whatever target Afrasiabi had considered. Yes that Sylvanas was different but she was consistent between BtS, the stories and then the game up to 8.2. Then with 8.2.5 we had a complete break in the narrative. Up to that point I at least felt that BtS was telegraphing a Stormwind Raid. The plot points were there, it's just that the plot got scrapped.
    BtS and the intro to BfA seemed like it was building an organic narrative flowing from "Sylvanas is doing questionable stuff", to "Sylvanas is insane and wants to be Lich Queen/Allied with Death itself".
    Had the final raid in BfA been Siege of Stormwind or Embers of Teldrassil, or really any faction war themed raid then it all would have flowed reasonably well. Calia being ressurected would have been a footnote in the greater story of Anduin getting burned on trusting Sylvanas as the full extent of her actions became clear.

    But no. Saurfangs big defection storyline amounted to nothing because "Muh Arthas means humans bad", and Sylvanas escaped to her own poorly planned redemption arc that couldnt even manage a basic redemption without making Sylvanas a different innocent person.
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  11. #64291
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Frostfire used to be a replacement for either Frostbolt or Fireball that had both of their effects, would proc everything those two proc, had the same DpCT but was slower to cast. If I was adding it to the tree then I'd be changing the Fire and Frost capstones to be strong talents (likely CDs) that interact with Frostbolt or Fireball respectively, letting a FrostFire mage pick both and Frostfire Bolt and thus use a Frost CD with Fire spec or vice versa. But that would require extensive changes to what we see now so I guess it's pointless to discuss sadly.

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    It did have everything to do with what happened immediately after. You could easily reconcile BtS with BfA up to 8.2. We know that they had a hard turn in their plot after 8.2.5 which is when Afrasiabi lost narrative control. So in a timeline were he was not a horrible creep, that book would likely have set up the expansion's plot.
    Or it was just a "subverted expectations red herring" thrown into the chaos by Afrasiabi as another middle-finger against everyone else. We know that he didn't even planned a cohesive ending for BfA according to devs (who btw basically all hated the idea of the BfA pre-patch when Afrasiabi forced it upon them).

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  12. #64292
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    That book was just completely random. It had barely anything to do with what was going on and then - as you said - most of its stuff was retconned or never talked about again. And the book itself was just incredibly boring. I think it's to date the worst Warcraft novel I've read yet and I've read almost all of them.
    The book made sense when considering the first half of BfA.
    Anduin wants peace. The timeframe between the first Forsaken being freed has been long enough that a reconciliation plotline was inevitable. Sylvanas had her inscrutable schemes.
    A story to really ensure that the Forsaken were not just Sylvanas cronies were necessary at that point. And BtS did a mostly decent job of putting a lid on the whole Human/Forsaken storyline and laying the groundwork for Forsaken forsaking Sylvanas once she became evil.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  13. #64293
    What the hell is with the Mage talent trees? Meteor, Blast Wave, Dragon's Breath in the class tree, Blast Wave competing with an AoE polymorph talent?

    Frost looks okayish, Flurry becoming an instant is a great move, I hated that proc because it overlapped with Fingers of Frost so often. The bottom talents are all incredibly bland and boring though.

    Fire is... just meh.

    Arcane seems decent, I like the new cooldown. I think they did the best job here.
    __________

    I don't understand why they released Paladin talents with Holy being completely untouched yet. Such a weird move.
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  14. #64294
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    BtS and the intro to BfA seemed like it was building an organic narrative flowing from "Sylvanas is doing questionable stuff", to "Sylvanas is insane and wants to be Lich Queen/Allied with Death itself".
    Had the final raid in BfA been Siege of Stormwind or Embers of Teldrassil, or really any faction war themed raid then it all would have flowed reasonably well. Calia being ressurected would have been a footnote in the greater story of Anduin getting burned on trusting Sylvanas as the full extent of her actions became clear.

    But no. Saurfangs big defection storyline amounted to nothing because "Muh Arthas means humans bad", and Sylvanas escaped to her own poorly planned redemption arc that couldnt even manage a basic redemption without making Sylvanas a different innocent person.
    I loved what they did with her in Shadowlands. It fixed the horrible mess of "Battle for Afrasiabi".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    What the hell is with the Mage talent trees? Meteor, Blast Wave, Dragon's Breath in the class tree, Blast Wave competing with an AoE polymorph talent?

    Frost looks okayish, Flurry becoming an instant is a great move, I hated that proc because it overlapped with Fingers of Frost so often. The bottom talents are all incredibly bland and boring though.

    Fire is... just meh.

    Arcane seems decent, I like the new cooldown. I think they did the best job here.
    __________

    I don't understand why they released Paladin talents with Holy being completely untouched yet. Such a weird move.
    The AoE poly would be super cool if it wouldn't heal everyone up haha. Really not sure why you would want that, besides maybe using it for skipping trash?

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  15. #64295
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    It did have everything to do with what happened immediately after. You could easily reconcile BtS with BfA up to 8.2. We know that they had a hard turn in their plot after 8.2.5 which is when Afrasiabi lost narrative control. So in a timeline were he was not a horrible creep, that book would likely have set up the expansion's plot.
    In that regard it could have done well indeed, but in the grand scheme of BfA it was just completely random which is a shame because the topic itself seemed interesting and had a lot of potential. Most of it was wasted though.
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  16. #64296
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Or it was just a "subverted expectations red herring" thrown into the chaos by Afrasiabi as another middle-finger against everyone else. We know that he didn't even planned a cohesive ending for BfA according to devs (who btw basically all hated the idea of the BfA pre-patch when Afrasiabi forced it upon them).
    Which is absurd, and exactly the kind of "Subverted expectations" that infected writing during that time like a terminal case of cancer.
    The writers should have realized that N'zoth didnt make sense as the final boss for an expansion that starts with SYlvanas burning down Teldrassil in a dark mirror of Arthas burning Silvermoon.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  17. #64297
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Which is absurd, and exactly the kind of "Subverted expectations" that infected writing during that time like a terminal case of cancer.
    The writers should have realized that N'zoth didnt make sense as the final boss for an expansion that starts with SYlvanas burning down Teldrassil in a dark mirror of Arthas burning Silvermoon.
    We just need to retcon 8.3 and BfA at least makes a little bit more sense. 8.2 would still feel a bit random, but could have set a great plot for a later expansion. But... we can't turn back time, unfortunately.
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  18. #64298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Which is absurd, and exactly the kind of "Subverted expectations" that infected writing during that time like a terminal case of cancer.
    The writers should have realized that N'zoth didnt make sense as the final boss for an expansion that starts with SYlvanas burning down Teldrassil in a dark mirror of Arthas burning Silvermoon.
    I think the problem was that most of the devs just wanted to tell the N'Zoth story, but they got forced to add that weird pvp plot on top. And when Afrasiabi left it was already too late as stuff like the Sadfang Cinematics aswell as the pre-patch / first patch would already have been in production/finished. N'Zoth was clearly the endboss from day one (the Aszhara video made that clear, as did Alliance questing).

    - - - Updated - - -

    We can only hope that being free of that creep will help the current writers to tell the story they want to tell. We can only judge once Dragonflight comes out, but it looks promising already =)

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  19. #64299
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    I loved what they did with her in Shadowlands. It fixed the horrible mess of "Battle for Afrasiabi".
    Sylvanas' redemption is beyond absurd.
    Her actions in BfA place her above Garrosh in terms of evil, and with the added info of her sending everyone directly to satan it places her among the ranks of the most evil characters in WoW.
    The fact that she never explains why exactly she decided to do this outside vague "I had to", or "Good is Bad" diatribes means that you never get any insight into her frame of mind. You just have to assume she did all this because the is an idiot who didnt know any better, which clashes horrendously with her constantly being hailed as this great strategic genius.
    The fact that even literally grafting an innocent version of Sylvanas onto her didnt do much for her character speak volumes on how the writers realized how badly they fucked her up, potentially even scrapping her entire questline in 9.2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    We just need to retcon 8.3 and BfA at least makes a little bit more sense. 8.2 would still feel a bit random, but could have set a great plot for a later expansion. But... we can't turn back time, unfortunately.
    If we imagine 8.2.5 was actually 8.3 and we just did Siege of Orgrimmar again then it at least marginally tracks, though really only making BfA awful writing, not awful and schizophrenic.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  20. #64300
    Arcane: its now completely opposite - its all about gaining your mana back rather than spending it. Cool concept, will probably start to work in 11.0.

    Fire: with 2 outlaw rogues, you can have permanent Combustion up. even without you would be looking at super high uptime. Any aoe build around flame patch is dogshit. SKB is dogshit to play on ST. Ignite still has to be spread manually instead of automatic. So either full gimmick combust spec (but boring because no extra power like BFA) or dead spec.

    Frost: None of the paths actually define what u do best as all the talents are mixed up.

    Overall: mostly lazy picks of shadowlands content for all mage specs. none of the FUN legion/bfa stuff added. hope they listen to feedback and redesign the tree completely rather than going live with this version of it.

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