1. #64821
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    The base class tree is shit, I agree.
    I think one of the issues is, that you have to make choices, but none of those choices are actually fun. it's like going shopping for tools when you don't really care about them. Yes, they are useful but are you excited to actually have them? No.

  2. #64822
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaggler View Post
    I think one of the issues is, that you have to make choices, but none of those choices are actually fun. it's like going shopping for tools when you don't really care about them. Yes, they are useful but are you excited to actually have them? No.
    I like the healing and more shields, speed and shields from blinking, and other such things!
    Romance doesnt detract from a story. Its a Genre, like horror or comedy or adventure. The game was ruined when we got Horror in drustvar or nazmir. It wasnt ruined when we had funny quests. So if you think a little man on man love ruins the game, then yes you are either a homophobe or just a spoil sport that goes "ewww kissing is yucky" like a baby. Furthermore, if a character has never expressed interest in any gender, then its not proof they are straight. straight people are not the default

  3. #64823
    The Lightbringer Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Are people seriously asking for more throughput talents in the class tree??? I am happy that mage class tree is mostly utility.

  4. #64824
    Pretty poor choices for mage talents so far, hopefully a lot of it gets changed. worst legendary playstyles, SL conduits which are irrelevant at such low ranks. very little of the actual mage players wishlist on there.

    fire shows how little they play the game - giving mages back 1 min combustion, but not the powerups that made 1 min actually good. bfa 1 min bust build was good because you had multiple buffs every time, without them, its a wet noodle.

  5. #64825
    Quote Originally Posted by tristannarutofan View Post
    I like the healing and more shields, speed and shields from blinking, and other such things!
    Are people seriously asking for more throughput talents in the class tree??? I am happy that mage class tree is mostly utility.
    Not talking about throughput. I really like stuff like Mass Polymorph, Ice Floes being back for all specs and i personally always liked Tempest Shield.
    The problem lies mostly in pathing and the amount of multiple point nodes that just feel bad. Making some of the 3-point-nodes two pointes could already free some points up for fun talents, imho. I also wonder if they couldn't find a better fire capstone than meteor. Depends on balancing I guess, but compared to greater Invis and Shifting power I'd say that's a bit lackluster.

  6. #64826
    Herald of the Titans Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nebron View Post
    Interesting that Blizzard would spoil that with the loading screen already though. - for that single reason you can know it's not Ysera
    Or we bring her back during the pre-patch, hence her being on the loading screen during launch wouldn't spoil anything. Besides that, the interesting part isn't that she is coming back (we already know that from the epilogue), but how and what sacrifice we have to give.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    There's a massive difference actually. Two of them. You have to pay more to learn more of the story, and it's in an entirely different type of media. Maybe if it was a short story for free on their website, that'd be cool. But no, it's not.

    Something like Chronicles is cool, because it's like an encyclopedia that goes deep into the lore of the world in general. But releasing a companion novel for each expansion that players who like the lore feel forced to buy because there's important details isn't nice. Of course people can get a PDF illegally through some means but that's not really nice is it?
    Again, nothing wrong with paying extra to get extra fluff for your hobby. No one complains that there are thousands of Warhammer books to enrichen the lore of GW's games either (which cost a loooot more than the small sub fee WoW has) because why would you complain about extra stuff ... oO. I don't get it.

  7. #64827
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Or we bring her back during the pre-patch, hence her being on the loading screen during launch wouldn't spoil anything. Besides that, the interesting part isn't that she is coming back (we already know that from the epilogue), but how and what sacrifice we have to give.

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    Again, nothing wrong with paying extra to get extra fluff for your hobby. No one complains that there are thousands of Warhammer books to enrichen the lore of GW's games either (which cost a loooot more than the small sub fee WoW has) because why would you complain about extra stuff ... oO. I don't get it.
    Buying a book to understand the story of a game is not "extra fluff", it's the basic story.

  8. #64828
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    Buying a book to understand the story of a game is not "extra fluff", it's the basic story.
    When was the last time you actually had to buy a book to get an important plotpoint? War Crimes?

  9. #64829
    Herald of the Titans Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    Buying a book to understand the story of a game is not "extra fluff", it's the basic story.
    But they don't do books anymore than are "required to understand the story". The basic story is in the game.

  10. #64830
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Again, nothing wrong with paying extra to get extra fluff for your hobby. No one complains that there are thousands of Warhammer books to enrichen the lore of GW's games either (which cost a loooot more than the small sub fee WoW has) because why would you complain about extra stuff ... oO. I don't get it.
    It's alright to have extra stuff, when they are, you know... extra. Like world-building and fleshing out the already known story.

    When you already pay the price for a full game, plus a subscription, it's a dick move to hide crucial story elements in other, monetized, sources.

    Not everyone(only a portion of the players, actually) is invested in the story to an extent, where they will seek out-of-game sources, in order to be able to get the complete picture. Which leads to the story appearing as even bigger mess than it actually is, the most recent example being Shadowlands.
    unclench your jaw

  11. #64831
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaggler View Post
    When was the last time you actually had to buy a book to get an important plotpoint? War Crimes?
    I'd say Before the Storm but halfway through BfA it nearly felt retconned. It did feel very important during early BfA though, practically setting up a Stormwind Raid. And then with Sylvanas they were all sewn back together like Frankenstein.

  12. #64832
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    Quote Originally Posted by UndedoKoleda View Post
    It's alright to have extra stuff, when they are, you know... extra. Like world-building and fleshing out the already known story.

    When you already pay the price for a full game, plus a subscription, it's a dick move to hide crucial story elements in other, monetized, sources.

    Not everyone(only a portion of the players, actually) is invested in the story to an extent, where they will seek out-of-game sources, in order to be able to get the complete picture. Which leads to the story appearing as even bigger mess than it actually is, the most recent example being Shadowlands.
    You didn't need "Shadows Rising" to understand Shadowlands. One could argue that it was actually a waste of money to buy that book because it was that much unimportant to the game. For "Sylvanas" - all it did was fix BfA (which isn't the fault of the current writers lol). Regarding Shadowlands, again there was nothing new in it which we didn't already know from questing in the Shadowlands. And one would argue that it makes sense that our characters don't know the PoV of Sylvanas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I'd say Before the Storm but halfway through BfA it nearly felt retconned. It did feel very important during early BfA though, practically setting up a Stormwind Raid. And then with Sylvanas they were all sewn back together like Frankenstein.
    The only important points of BtS were the Desolate Council (which was world building and felt super out of place and full of newly created no-names when the book came out, honestly that thing only makes sense now that we have real forsaken characters on the new one) aswell as Calia. That said, BfA as a whole was a mess but that was pretty much Afrasiabi's fault anyways. And Calia was a late addition to the book because Christie felt "it felt right to use Calia for that plot point". Hence we never saw her in BfA 'till we got to the epilogue. Or in other words, the Calia bit wasn't "hey we have this thing we should tell ingame but no tell it in the book to get more sales", but rather "this feels right for my story, can I use her?". Which is different from the Cataclysm or WoD novel.
    Last edited by Lady Atia; 2022-07-27 at 08:09 AM.

  13. #64833
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I'd say Before the Storm but halfway through BfA it nearly felt retconned. It did feel very important during early BfA though, practically setting up a Stormwind Raid. And then with Sylvanas they were all sewn back together like Frankenstein.
    Yeah, i was thinking about Before the Storm, but the only thing of relevance that happens, that wasn't portrayed in the game was the death and resurrection of Calia. In the whole scheme of things the Gathering and the first Desolate Council were really minor

  14. #64834
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    But they don't do books anymore than are "required to understand the story". The basic story is in the game.
    Arguably, Sylvanas was required for the Shadowlands story to make sense.

    Shadows Rising, I agree.

  15. #64835
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    You didn't need "Shadows Rising" to understand Shadowlands. One could argue that it was actually a waste of money to buy that book because it was that much unimportant to the game. For "Sylvanas" - all it did was fix BfA (which isn't the fault of the current writers lol). Regarding Shadowlands, again there was nothing new in it which we didn't already know from questing in the Shadowlands. And one would argue that it makes sense that our characters don't know the PoV of Sylvanas.
    Yes, you did need it. You knew nothing about what was her motivation to do all the stuff that she did the last couple of expansions, that directly led to Shadowlands. In a hindsight, you might think that it all made sense, but that's hindsight for you...

    And our characters not knowing the PoV of Sylvanas is really not an excuse... By that logic they can just go all-out "vanilla style" on the story and explain it with "but our characters have very limited understanding of what is going on, they just need to do this and this".
    unclench your jaw

  16. #64836
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaggler View Post
    Not talking about throughput. I really like stuff like Mass Polymorph, Ice Floes being back for all specs and i personally always liked Tempest Shield.
    The problem lies mostly in pathing and the amount of multiple point nodes that just feel bad. Making some of the 3-point-nodes two pointes could already free some points up for fun talents, imho. I also wonder if they couldn't find a better fire capstone than meteor. Depends on balancing I guess, but compared to greater Invis and Shifting power I'd say that's a bit lackluster.
    I think what needs to be removed from the Class Tree is Tome of Antonidas/Rhonin. They very much lock how you can advance if you don't want to lose major throughput. Alternatively they'd have to be placed at a different point that follows a branching point from the middle. Cryo-Freeze and Tempest Barrier should also probably be 2 rank talents. Also the class tree needs a bit more fire and a bit less frost. And really disappointed at no FrostFire.

  17. #64837
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    Arguably, Sylvanas was required for the Shadowlands story to make sense.

    Shadows Rising, I agree.
    Mhm, the book was arguably required for her personal story to make sense. But mostly just for the Legion and BfA bits that Afrasiabi wrote to make her an "evil ninja 5D mastermind kekW". The Shadowlands bits? The basic premise is in the Torghast questlines. Sylvanas' makes it quite clear to Anduin that in her eyes, she is an anti-hero who does everything for the greater good in order to re-write a broken, unfair universe. And everyone else around us tells us all the time that the Jailer is a lying manipulating dude (although, in the end, he indeed did what he did for the greater good, which was something I was sure from the get go would be the ending for him - and if I got that from the basic questing, well, looks like I just did understand the story just fine?).

  18. #64838
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaggler View Post
    Yeah, i was thinking about Before the Storm, but the only thing of relevance that happens, that wasn't portrayed in the game was the death and resurrection of Calia. In the whole scheme of things the Gathering and the first Desolate Council were really minor
    The thing is, reading BtS and leading into BfA early BfA it made sense and felt like it was leading to whatever target Afrasiabi had considered. Yes that Sylvanas was different but she was consistent between BtS, the stories and then the game up to 8.2. Then with 8.2.5 we had a complete break in the narrative. Up to that point I at least felt that BtS was telegraphing a Stormwind Raid. The plot points were there, it's just that the plot got scrapped.

  19. #64839
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I think what needs to be removed from the Class Tree is Tome of Antonidas/Rhonin. They very much lock how you can advance if you don't want to lose major throughput. Alternatively they'd have to be placed at a different point that follows a branching point from the middle. Cryo-Freeze and Tempest Barrier should also probably be 2 rank talents. Also the class tree needs a bit more fire and a bit less frost. And really disappointed at no FrostFire.
    Yeah, those are just bad. Cryo-Freeze and Tempest Barrier would have been my first idea to reduce to 2 points as well. Maybe add Cauterizing blink? Always liked that trait, could be busted with Tempest Barrier though (Could be a choice node?)

    Question is, what you would do with FrostFire Bolt. How would it fit into Fire or Frost (or Arcane)

    The thing is, reading BtS and leading into BfA early BfA it made sense and felt like it was leading to whatever target Afrasiabi had considered. Yes that Sylvanas was different but she was consistent between BtS, the stories and then the game up to 8.2. Then with 8.2.5 we had a complete break in the narrative. Up to that point I at least felt that BtS was telegraphing a Stormwind Raid. The plot points were there, it's just that the plot got scrapped.
    Yeah, of course it made sense. I'm just arguing that with not reading BtS, you weren't missing plot basically. Just a side story. That is, what most of these Novels currently are. Just smaller side stories, which are "nice to know" but not mandatory to understand the overarching plot.

  20. #64840
    Herald of the Titans Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UndedoKoleda View Post
    Yes, you did need it. You knew nothing about what was her motivation to do all the stuff that she did the last couple of expansions, that directly led to Shadowlands. In a hindsight, you might think that it all made sense, but that's hindsight for you...

    And our characters not knowing the PoV of Sylvanas is really not an excuse... By that logic they can just go all-out "vanilla style" on the story and explain it with "but our characters have very limited understanding of what is going on, they just need to do this and this".
    No, everything we need to know was in that cinematic:


    The book mostly fixed legion/bfa stuff, it barely had any shadowlands bits anyways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaggler View Post
    Yeah, those are just bad. Cryo-Freeze and Tempest Barrier would have been my first idea to reduce to 2 points as well. Maybe add Cauterizing blink? Always liked that trait, could be busted with Tempest Barrier though (Could be a choice node?)

    Question is, what you would do with FrostFire Bolt. How would it fit into Fire or Frost (or Arcane)



    Yeah, of course it made sense. I'm just arguing that with not reading BtS, you weren't missing plot basically. Just a side story. That is, what most of these Novels currently are. Just smaller side stories, which are "nice to know" but not mandatory to understand the overarching plot.
    This, It's not different from watching a marvel movie - consuming everything makes the experience better, of course. But you can just enjoy it fine with just one movie, or in this case, just the expansion itself. None of the books are required for that (anymore). They even state as much on that website for new players.

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