Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Gasparde]

BFA apologism is at a rise, because it's been years since we've had its atrocious gameplay

BFA was fine... eventually... after being shit for 2 years.
Once they gave up on the horseshit that was Azerite armor and just made it pretty much whatever, once they gave up on the horseshit that was Essences and made that pretty much whatever, once they got rid of the horseshit that was Benthic gear and once they eased up on the horseshit that was entirely random Corruptions... the last season was actually pretty neat.

Let's not act as if that were any different in Legion. The expansion was horrible in the beginning, with just about every early feedback community warning about things being shit becoming evident within the first couple months. It was only later on when Artifact and Legendary restrictions were loosened that the expansion became truly enjoyable.

Shockingly, the same applies to SL. Shit expansion at the start, once they let go of every single one of their stupid ideas, suddenly the game became somewhat enjoyable. And 4 years from now people will look back at SL and remember it for being decent enough during S4 - as with every other expansion of the last decade.

Now, DF has the advantage of not having any new power system that they could intentionally fuck up for 1 year. But then again... DF doesn't have anything at all. Those dungeons and raids better be absolute bangers or this expansion will receive just about the same luke warm reception, eventually turning into hate, inevitably turning into something semi-decent in 2 years.

[Sondrelk]

BFA apologism is at a rise, because it's been years since we've had its atrocious gameplay and the SL story is more fresh in people's minds. As a card-carrying WoD story supporter myself, I can't judge them too much on principle, only in practice because BFA was complete dross, buoyed only by how much of an entertaining trainwreck it was to discuss it outside the game.

@Zulggun

No way is this real or would pass current Blizzard's office politics, but it still got a right laugh out of me. Cheers!

The primary reason players hate something or other is because its boring, this is why WoD was by far the worst expansion, simply because it had nothing. Legion had the AP grind, and BfA had the endless systems that were also boring after one or two attempts. This is also true for SL, where the primary issue was the droughts, which are boring.

The issue with this metric is that noone ever remembers being bored. And when the primary reason you hated X expansion is gone you naturally start thinking more positively of it, especially when you are currently bored with what you have.

[Nymrohd]

BFA was fine... eventually... after being shit for 2 years.
Once they gave up on the horseshit that was Azerite armor and just made it pretty much whatever, once they gave up on the horseshit that was Essences and made that pretty much whatever, once they got rid of the horseshit that was Benthic gear and once they eased up on the horseshit that was entirely random Corruptions... the last season was actually pretty neat.

Let's not act as if that were any different in Legion. The expansion was horrible in the beginning, with just about every early feedback community warning about things being shit becoming evident within the first couple months. It was only later on when Artifact and Legendary restrictions were loosened that the expansion became truly enjoyable.

Shockingly, the same applies to SL. Shit expansion at the start, once they let go of every single one of their stupid ideas, suddenly the game became somewhat enjoyable. And 4 years from now people will look back at SL and remember it for being decent enough during S4 - as with every other expansion of the last decade.

Now, DF has the advantage of not having any new power system that they could intentionally fuck up for 1 year. But then again... DF doesn't have anything at all. Those dungeons and raids better be absolute bangers or this expansion will receive just about the same luke warm reception, eventually turning into hate, inevitably turning into something semi-decent in 2 years.

The thing with Legion is that a) unless you were really unlucky with legendaries you probably no longer had any issues with the systems by 7.2 and b) even though the legendary system and a few specs were very poorly designed at launch, there was so much content and so many amazing collectibles to get that the game kept you very busy.

As for Essences/Benthic/Corruptions I think those were really only a serious problem for people who wanted to play multiple alts at the highest level (so likely mostly FOTM rerollers) and for people who optimize at the highest level. These are a minority of the playerbase. For most people, 8.2 was a patch with a lot of good content to do and a decent progression mechanism that supported it.

- - - Updated - - -

The primary reason players hate something or other is because its boring, this is why WoD was by far the worst expansion, simply because it had nothing. Legion had the AP grind, and BfA had the endless systems that were also boring after one or two attempts. This is also true for SL, where the primary issue was the droughts, which are boring.

The issue with this metric is that noone ever remembers being bored. And when the primary reason you hated X expansion is gone you naturally start thinking more positively of it, especially when you are currently bored with what you have.

Personally I never quit during BfA. I always had things to do. I quit for months in WoD and I actually quit for even longer in SL. I even have collections I kind of want in SL but I just cannot be bothered.

[Varodoc]

"Oh nyooo the mortal races are keeping us under scrutiny we're sad ((/" -> What Wrathion said in a nutshell

The sheer entitlement of Wrathion, someone ought to tell him what this bitch did to Stormwind, that will shut him up with his victimism:



Now that his boyfriend Anduin is no longer on the throne, he has to come to terms with the consequences of what his kind did. The people of Stormwind, however, fully support Turalyon and his military forces are fully on board with the idea of keeping dragons under strict supervision.

By the way, the Void elves also wielded mysterious and dangerous powers and could assume mortal visages (their previous High elf form) to mingle with the lowly masses. But because they don't act like victims all the time and actually worked hard in the Fourth War to prove their worth to the Alliance, they have been fully accepted despite their differences. The same will happen to the Dracthyr, but, shockingly, one needs to prove themself and work hard first.

[Skildar]

BFA apologism is at a rise, because it's been years since we've had its atrocious gameplay and the SL story is more fresh in people's minds. As a card-carrying WoD story supporter myself, I can't judge them too much on principle, only in practice because BFA was complete dross, buoyed only by how much of an entertaining trainwreck it was to discuss it outside the game.

I don't understand people who got upset with WoD early on, the story was quite nice and even the gameplay and content were good before 6.1
Afterwards it becomes a pile of missed opportunities for a land that is beautiful with a glorious soundtrack.

Each expac has its strength but BfA will remain to me this project in which blizz dumped way too much money for stories that deserved more narration and subtlety instead.

[Nask]

lol

Did you just take that screenshot seriously? Your elf mumblings have rotted your brain.

[Nymrohd]

I don't understand people who got upset with WoD early on, the story was quite nice and even the gameplay and content were good before 6.1
Afterwards it becomes a pile of missed opportunities for a land that is beautiful with a glorious soundtrack.

Each expac has its strength but BfA will remain to me this project in which blizz dumped way too much money for stories that deserved more narration and subtlety instead.

Until I finished with all my garrison achievements (Except the pvp ones) WoD had me extremely happy. Beautiful area, so much to do. And then I run out and found out all that was left was raid or die. I cleared Blackhand on Heroic and left for ESO.

[SunspotAnims]

I don't understand people who got upset with WoD early on, the story was quite nice and even the gameplay and content were good before 6.1
Afterwards it becomes a pile of missed opportunities for a land that is beautiful with a glorious soundtrack.

Each expac has its strength but BfA will remain to me this project in which blizz dumped way too much money for stories that deserved more narration and subtlety instead.

WoD had great leveling and a beautiful continent but it was all so hollow. If you didn't raid, the only endgame PvE offerings was your one Apexis daily and grinding for whatever garrison buildings you had, which was almost never fun and the rewards almost always underwhelming.

[Super Dickmann]

BFA was fine... eventually... after being shit for 2 years.
Once they gave up on the horseshit that was Azerite armor and just made it pretty much whatever, once they gave up on the horseshit that was Essences and made that pretty much whatever, once they got rid of the horseshit that was Benthic gear and once they eased up on the horseshit that was entirely random Corruptions... the last season was actually pretty neat.

Let's not act as if that were any different in Legion. The expansion was horrible in the beginning, with just about every early feedback community warning about things being shit becoming evident within the first couple months. It was only later on when Artifact and Legendary restrictions were loosened that the expansion became truly enjoyable.

Shockingly, the same applies to SL. Shit expansion at the start, once they let go of every single one of their stupid ideas, suddenly the game became somewhat enjoyable. And 4 years from now people will look back at SL and remember it for being decent enough during S4 - as with every other expansion of the last decade.

SL in terms of gameplay mostly suffered from the massive content draught as well as being the third one in its formula. SL's legendary formula and lack of an AP grind made it the most accessible of the Legion-likes, but it was still a Legion-like and didn't have the novelty of Legion or its all important content release cadence. While Legion had massive gameplay faults at the start it could tide over Joe Rando with what that content was because it's the first time they'd done dedicated halls, expansion-only power systems and so forth. 7.0 was significantly worse than 9.0 in everything from raid to class gameplay, but we were stuck in 7.0 significantly less and we hadn't seen it all before. Every patch of SL was three months too long and while the content in it was sensibly sized for what it was, it wasn't enough. This meant that just about every problem was massively amplified, as @Sondrelk says.

BFA is a red-headed stepchild. It was the longest expansion, its content schedule was not SL-tier slow, but still too slow. It had not only an infinite grind, but an infinite grind objectively inferior to the one in the prior expansion by dint of being the same for everyone without even the wallpaper of class flavour or whatever. Corruptions were ridiculous when they were on the lottery and continued to be defining even afterwards. I can't comment on 8.2 much as I barely played it past the most basic fare, but BFA was constantly gyrating in design direction, adopting shit ideas and then dropping them minutes later, ending the expansion with an overbearing and parasitic mechanic in Corruption.

I don't understand people who got upset with WoD early on, the story was quite nice and even the gameplay and content were good before 6.1
Afterwards it becomes a pile of missed opportunities for a land that is beautiful with a glorious soundtrack.

Each expac has its strength but BfA will remain to me this project in which blizz dumped way too much money for stories that deserved more narration and subtlety instead.

WoD's main problem was that there was absolutely nothing to do past the first 1-2 months. It had negative longevity. I love the setting, the aesthetic, music, atmosphere and so forth and the various clan lore, arrakkoa so on, but all this doesn't lend itself to actually engaging with the gameplay. It is peak window dressing and the expansion that best captured being in a new world. But in terms of being a game it just fell on its face. I mostly chat lore here on the forums and I like most of the WoD setting if not it's perfunctory and pretty stupid plot, and in that regard it's definitely in the upper middle of WoW expansions, but content-wise it's still the worst.

[Nymrohd]

WoD's main problem was that there was absolutely nothing to do past the first 1-2 months. It had negative longevity. I love the setting, the aesthetic, music, atmosphere and so forth and the various clan lore, arrakkoa so on, but all this doesn't lend itself to actually engaging with the gameplay. It is peak window dressing and the expansion that best captured being in a new world. But in terms of being a game it just fell on its face. I mostly chat lore here on the forums and I like most of the WoD setting if not it's perfunctory and pretty stupid plot, and in that regard it's definitely in the upper middle of WoW expansions, but content-wise it's still the worst.

I had this idea that if they ever wanted to revamp Outland (as in revamp and replace, Cata Style) they could have Yrel or whoever shift AU Draenor and Superimpose it on Outland. We'd get AU Draenor plus some version of the Netherstorm. Ashran could regretably be lost in the transition . . . Maybe Zangarmarsh would land on top of the Zangar Sea and stay (cause sporelings are fun). Then the Light would be launching their Shining Crusade from there instead of some poorly conceived planar concept for a Plane of Light.

- - - Updated - - -

SL in terms of gameplay mostly suffered from the massive content draught as well as being the third one in its formula. SL's legendary formula and lack of an AP grind made it the most accessible of the Legion-likes, but it was still a Legion-like and didn't have the novelty of Legion or its all important content release cadence. While Legion had massive gameplay faults at the start it could tide over Joe Rando with what that content was because it's the first time they'd done dedicated halls, expansion-only power systems and so forth. 7.0 was significantly worse than 9.0 in everything from raid to class gameplay, but we were stuck in 7.0 significantly less and we hadn't seen it all before. Every patch of SL was three months too long and while the content in it was sensibly sized for what it was, it wasn't enough. This meant that just about every problem was massively amplified, as @Sondrelk says.

Beyond the fact that Legion's problematic systems did not last long, I think you are underselling how good a sell class halls and artifact cosmetics were. Class Halls were full of poorly used characters we all wanted to see more of (and then less, go home Liadrin). The toys were great, the world was objectively better simply because it was connected and easily navigable (you could take an fp to Highmountain and toy glide anywhere then whistle back; compare to taking an fp to another zone in SL and forgetting you were playing WoW while alt-tabbed). Meanwhile the SL mogs are not class specific and in many cases your best Covenant would not really fit your class theme (or NO Covenant would fit your class theme); also imo they are just not of the same quality as the ones from Legion. Really the only standout covenant hall feature is the Ember Court?

[huth]

The toys were great, the world was objectively better simply because it was connected and easily navigable (you could take an fp to Highmountain and toy glide anywhere then whistle back; compare to taking an fp to another zone in SL and forgetting you were playing WoW while alt-tabbed).

You tabbed out in Legion too then. FPs aren't taking any longer in SL.

[Raetary]

You tabbed out in Legion too then. FPs aren't taking any longer in SL.

But they are mandatory, while Legion had a uniform and compact region in which you can fly all over yourself and had an accessible and quick portal network thanks to Dalaran. (+ class halls if your class had them)

If you want to go from Ard to Rev you need to take a flight path.
You can only reduce your travel time by upgrading your transport network for the Oribos portal.

Which took fucking ages to unlock when the expansion came out, while Dalaran had its hearthstone and portal room from day 1.

[Cheezits]

From a gameplay perspective I really liked Shadowlands. I got Veilstrider and Jigglesworth both, lots of world content to do and Torghast was fun (for my class). I also liked all three raids.

Patch cadence was bad and the story was meh. But the actual game stuff was good to me.

I did do all four covenants though. I know a lot of people didn't.

[Skildar]

I had this idea that if they ever wanted to revamp Outland (as in revamp and replace, Cata Style) they could have Yrel or whoever shift AU Draenor and Superimpose it on Outland. We'd get AU Draenor plus some version of the Netherstorm. Ashran could regretably be lost in the transition . . . Maybe Zangarmarsh would land on top of the Zangar Sea and stay (cause sporelings are fun). Then the Light would be launching their Shining Crusade from there instead of some poorly conceived planar concept for a Plane of Light.

- - - Updated - - -



Beyond the fact that Legion's problematic systems did not last long, I think you are underselling how good a sell class halls and artifact cosmetics were. Class Halls were full of poorly used characters we all wanted to see more of (and then less, go home Liadrin). The toys were great, the world was objectively better simply because it was connected and easily navigable (you could take an fp to Highmountain and toy glide anywhere then whistle back; compare to taking an fp to another zone in SL and forgetting you were playing WoW while alt-tabbed). Meanwhile the SL mogs are not class specific and in many cases your best Covenant would not really fit your class theme (or NO Covenant would fit your class theme); also imo they are just not of the same quality as the ones from Legion. Really the only standout covenant hall feature is the Ember Court?

I've had a bit if fun with the maldraxxus stitch factory but you can guess it was meant to be way more than what we got. I'm pretty sure that the original design was for you to choose body parts and body types and attach souls to them, making the conversations with souls more than just a lore funky bit.

Honestly the only thing that has disappointed me is the mission table because the very first iteration (WoD) was definitely the best one with its mechanics though the reward balance for shadowlands is very good and probably the best even.

[Berkilak]

From a gameplay perspective I really liked Shadowlands. I got Veilstrider and Jigglesworth both, lots of world content to do and Torghast was fun (for my class). I also liked all three raids.

Patch cadence was bad and the story was meh. But the actual game stuff was good to me.

I did do all four covenants though. I know a lot of people didn't.

Now that Veilstrider is giving me an excuse to revisit the "old" Shadowlands content, and all the timegating is over with, I am finding the content very enjoyable. It was the structure that they slotted the content into that was horrible.

But let's take that a step further - imagine if this setting wasn't so far removed from WoW's core tone. What if we did the Silvermoon Court instead of the Ember Court and actually invited characters we care about in a setting we're already invested in? What if the Abomination Factory was in Undercity, solving the issue of procreation? What if Torghast was instead the Caverns of Time, visiting randomized timelines? What if the Covenants were actual factions we know and care about, like the Earthen Ring, Argent Crusade, Cenarion Circle, Wyrmrest Accord and the like?

The bones of a great expansion were there. They were just misused.

[infinitemeridian]

SL quick review for me. Classes were fun, legendaries and tier kept things interesting, dungeons and raids were solid. Mage tower coming back was great as well. Torghast was decent, but the aesthetic got old quick.

However, the zones and "feel" was just complete off. Oribos was a horrible hub, both aesthetically and getting around. Cosmetics were good, but the anima grind to get them all was and STILL is way WAY too much. There's just too much overloaded in there as well. We didn't need like 5 recolors for each covenant set, covenant progress should have been across all covenants (bar the unique event like the court) and characters, anima and all currencies like stygia should be account wide WITHOUT having to send across characters at a loss.

[Feali]

The bones of a great expansion were there. They were just misused.

The same goes for WoD honestly.

[Nymrohd]

You tabbed out in Legion too then. FPs aren't taking any longer in SL.

No I didn't. The flights were very short so I did not have a reason to. Dalaran to Obsidian Overlook, my usually starting point for gliding, was a short flight over terrain so I'd usually pull the map up and plan the order I'd clear my world quests with. Sinfall to Ardenweald was mostly spend zooming in the In-Between so ofc I'd tab out.

[Varodoc]

I...I think that's edited in lol

Whether that was edited in or not is irrelevant because I have already seen at least one thread here that claimed that Turalyon was "ruthless" and "possessive", when he decided to put the Dracthyr under strict scrutiny. Consider this a reminder that Turalyon did nothing wrong (hence why his people agree with his policies).

So this community has this misconception that the Dracthyr should be respected and treated as equals by Stormwind, which is completely contradictory and illogical with the lore.

[huth]

No I didn't. The flights were very short so I did not have a reason to. Dalaran to Obsidian Overlook, my usually starting point for gliding, was a short flight over terrain so I'd usually pull the map up and plan the order I'd clear my world quests with. Sinfall to Ardenweald was mostly spend zooming in the In-Between so ofc I'd tab out.

I just checked. Turns out your "short flight" is almost the same time as the supposed long SL flight.