Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[AngerFork]

I like how Danuser basically confirmed a future expansion that includes Gilneas, but people are just still mad that DF isn't a revamp.

If Ion came out and said "yes 11.0 is a world revamp" people would still find a way to be mad (WTF IT ISN'T KARESH??? and BUT I LIKE CATA WESTFALL!!!)

I hope it is, but that's not at all what I read in his response. It seemed to me that was the Blizz team more or less saying they want to show those events someday & don't want to change the world until those events are shown...in essence, kicking the can down the road. While 11.0 may well be a revamp (which I still suspect it is), that seemed more like a "we just don't want to do it right now" sort of thing.

To his point, he's not wrong. Given the amount of people complaining about world/plot changes happening in books instead of in game, I can totally see why the team wouldn't want to just have Gilneas go back without a questline or the like.

[Nymrohd]

I hope it is, but that's not at all what I read in his response. It seemed to me that was the Blizz team more or less saying they want to show those events someday & don't want to change the world until those events are shown...in essence, kicking the can down the road. While 11.0 may well be a revamp (which I still suspect it is), that seemed more like a "we just don't want to do it right now" sort of thing.

To his point, he's not wrong. Given the amount of people complaining about world/plot changes happening in books instead of in game, I can totally see why the team wouldn't want to just have Gilneas go back without a questline or the like.

The thing is, it's better now than it used to be. Stormrage and Wolfheart had enough going on (add the Medan novel) to be a full expansion. War Crimes should have been 5.4.5 (or 5.5?). Sylvanas has a lot of information but at least it's not actual gameplay content missing from the game; it's 2-3 cutscenes missing across time. Illidan was a soft retcon of TBC, not much they could do there.

Ofc perhaps the issue might be that the last few books are just attempts to fix the lore cause they f'd it up in game.

[Lady Atia]

The thing is, it's better now than it used to be. Stormrage and Wolfheart had enough going on (add the Medan novel) to be a full expansion. War Crimes should have been 5.4.5 (or 5.5?). Sylvanas has a lot of information but at least it's not actual gameplay content missing from the game; it's 2-3 cutscenes missing across time. Illidan was a soft retcon of TBC, not much they could do there.

Ofc perhaps the issue might be that the last few books are just attempts to fix the lore cause they f'd it up in game.

Stormrage could have easily been the Emerald Nightmare Expansion, but honestly I don't even remember what the plot of Wolfheart was besides "Worgen want to join the Alliance and Maiv is suddenly crazy". TBC needed to be retconned, it's the worst expansion lorewise together with BfA *shudders*.

Let's hope NewBlizzard won't fuck up the lore again this time haha.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Stormrage could have easily been the Emerald Nightmare Expansion, but honestly I don't even remember what the plot of Wolfheart was besides "Worgen want to join the Alliance and Maiv is suddenly crazy". TBC needed to be retconned, it's the worst expansion lorewise together with BfA *shudders*.

Let's hope NewBlizzard won't fuck up the lore again this time haha.

Wolfheart was about how Varian was struggling a lot with his rage and he was not the best terms with Genn Greymane and his worgen. He also was distant with his son due to his anger, he went through the same ritual all worgen go through. And yeah Maiev went insane cause reasons. Such a dumb thing to do back then lol

[Khaza-R]

I like how Danuser basically confirmed a future expansion that includes Gilneas, but people are just still mad that DF isn't a revamp.

If Ion came out and said "yes 11.0 is a world revamp" people would still find a way to be mad (WTF IT ISN'T KARESH??? and BUT I LIKE CATA WESTFALL!!!)

I don't take it as confirmation. But its still nice they won't just hand wave such events off screen and be like "oh Gilneas is great and prospering again" in a book without you seeing it in-game.

[Biomega]

I like how Danuser basically confirmed a future expansion that includes Gilneas, but people are just still mad that DF isn't a revamp.

I love how "if we were to do that, we'd do it with in-game questing" turns into "basically confirmed a future expansion that includes it".

And people wonder why devs are reluctant to say anything but the most vague, generic shit. This is why. Forums immediately take things and run WILD.

[huth]

I like how Danuser basically confirmed a future expansion that includes Gilneas, but people are just still mad that DF isn't a revamp.

No, he didn't. Keyword is "if". All he confirms is that they're striving to have more important lore moments happen in the game, not that any particular moment is going to happen.

[Skildar]

The thing is, it's better now than it used to be. Stormrage and Wolfheart had enough going on (add the Medan novel) to be a full expansion. War Crimes should have been 5.4.5 (or 5.5?). Sylvanas has a lot of information but at least it's not actual gameplay content missing from the game; it's 2-3 cutscenes missing across time. Illidan was a soft retcon of TBC, not much they could do there.

Ofc perhaps the issue might be that the last few books are just attempts to fix the lore cause they f'd it up in game.

What I've liked with some plots brought by books is that they took the time to flesh out why the events are important or how they make sense. Voljin's book is a very nice read but 5.3 would have felt so much better with more of these moments integrated in game.

But of course a book will always be an easier format to narrate stories than a game.

On a sidenote, I've liked a lot every short stories accessible online on the official website and for free. They should definitely do more of these. The one for Bolvar and the four horsemen is really enjoyable and goves you something to look forward to. Too bad these characters were so badly used during Shadowlands.

Anyway with Sylvanas, they've made a big mess because they've never given any rope to grab on so that we could follow even a bit what's happening. Let it be in books or ingame.
In Legion, it feels like a forgotten thread. In Before the Storm, it feels like she just wants to rule with mutinee for every part. In A Good War, the horde got its back against the wall and she needs to create momentum. In BfA, she's not a warchief, she's scheming on a level no character or player can follow. In Shadow rising, she's barely there and her pawns are barely aware of what's going on. In Shadowlands, she's suddenly an open book...

The issue I'm having here is that you only get the rope in the last moment when the whole story has been started for 6 years at least and multiple books didn't help at all.

And with that we had to suffer Saurfang nonsense : "Sylavans is right we need to start a war and I'm going to lead it! Oh no! War means killing people without letting them more chances to kill you! No wait confusion is hitting me hard! Me good orc...I need human prison and human approval... Sylvanas bad and needs to be stopped because she... no one knows but she's against our world!"

[Snufflupagus]

And yet you still hang out here. Curious.

Reading all about the new features so as to make detailed posts about them. Curiouser and curiouser.

[loras]

That was also in an Old God vision, although that one came from Y'Shaarj.

In the BfA prelude, it was explicitly stated by Saurfang that the Horde could never hope to take Stormwind.

So, Canonically, the Horde has no chance of ever capturing Stormwind.

From the novel A Good War:


Canonically, War general and military strategist Saurfang confirms that it is scientifically impossible to take Stormwind.

Turalyon and Alleria Windrunner can rest easy, knowing that the mighty defences of their capital can never be breached.

Perhaps it should serve as a reminder that, lorewise, Stormwind is the heart and capital of the Alliance as well as the largest human city left on Azeroth.

Do you remember how breathtaking and amazing Boralus looked? Stormwind is supposed to dwarf that city. Do not be surprised, then, to learn that it's impossible for any army to take Stormwind.

Has science turned into a buzzword nowadays?
Sure does seem like it, not targetting you in particular here.

At any rate i remember a certain dragon settling his flaming arse squarely on the front gate, torching an entire district in one go, knocking over several statues, getting bored and flying off again after fetching his dead daughter's head, so i would not exactly overestimate its defenses either.
They're great, yeah, but next to i.e. Antorus or Ny'alotha, well, i don't think it can hold a candle to them.
And we raided those places just fine, like the bunch of merry murderhobos we are.

[huth]

Has science turned into a buzzword nowadays?
Sure does seem like it, not targetting you in particular here.

Well, strategy and tactics are aspects of military science, so it isn't completely inaccurate. Though mathematically impossible would make more sense, i.e. the Horde simply can't spare the forces that would be needed to achieve the goal, if it even has them.

And while Deathwing managed to cause some damage, he didn't exactly conquer the city nor did he even have the ability - that would have required him to bring an occupying force. We didn't conquer Antorus or Ny'alotha, either. We carved a bloody swath through them, but we wouldn't have had any way to hold them. Our advantage was that we didn't need to.

[loras]

Well, strategy and tactics are aspects of military science, so it isn't completely inaccurate. Though mathematically impossible would make more sense, i.e. the Horde simply can't spare the forces that would be needed to achieve the goal, if it even has them.

And while Deathwing managed to cause some damage, he didn't exactly conquer the city nor did he even have the ability - that would have required him to bring an occupying force. We didn't conquer Antorus or Ny'alotha, either. We carved a bloody swath through them, but we wouldn't have had any way to hold them. Our advantage was that we didn't need to.

I rather doubt that military science would use terms like "mathematical impossibility", history is rife with unlikelihoods and almost every aspect of warfare revolves around having grossly incomplete information. It does not seem beneficial to pretend outcomes can ever be considered impossible on the basis of calculation.

What is conquest? If he had burned the whole of Stormwind and taken a nap in the ashes could you seriously claim with a straight face that Deathwing had not conquered it?

And in regards to Ny'alotha: We literally killed all leaders and evrn their god, what more could you seriously ask for before calling it conquered? Their reality disintegrated; defeat does not get more thorough than that.

[huth]

I rather doubt that military science would use terms like "mathematical impossibility", history is rife with unlikelihoods and almost every aspect of warfare revolves around having grossly incomplete information. It does not seem beneficial to pretend outcomes can ever be considered impossible on the basis of calculation.

What is conquest? If he had burned the whole of Stormwind and taken a nap in the ashes could you seriously claim with a straight face that Deathwing had not conquered it?

And in regards to Ny'alotha: We literally killed all leaders and evrn their god, what more could you seriously ask for before calling it conquered? Their reality disintegrated; defeat does not get more thorough than that.

Mathematical impossible ultimately just means the numbers don't add up. I don't disagree that it likely wouldn't be used, but it isn't technically wrong for an attack that has no percievable chance of succeeding.

Conquest means taking and holding an objective. Destroying it isn't doing either. So yes, i could and would claim that he had not conquered it, he'd have destroyed it.
Same goes for Ny'alotha: We didn't conquer it, we destroyed it.

[Nymrohd]

What I've liked with some plots brought by books is that they took the time to flesh out why the events are important or how they make sense. Voljin's book is a very nice read but 5.3 would have felt so much better with more of these moments integrated in game.

But of course a book will always be an easier format to narrate stories than a game.

On a sidenote, I've liked a lot every short stories accessible online on the official website and for free. They should definitely do more of these. The one for Bolvar and the four horsemen is really enjoyable and goves you something to look forward to. Too bad these characters were so badly used during Shadowlands."

I think what would help would be releasing anthologies of short stories. Instead of telling a larger story through a novel, build the war and introduce new characters through multiple short stories.I honestly am unsure that the novel sales are that important a revenue.

[Raetary]

https://twitter.com/keyboardturn/sta...dZCV50wzA&s=19

So, this is very interesting.

[Annihilas]

i like how danuser basically confirmed a future expansion that includes gilneas, but people are just still mad that df isn't a revamp.

If ion came out and said "yes 11.0 is a world revamp" people would still find a way to be mad (wtf it isn't karesh??? And but i like cata westfall!!!)

You mean it SHOULD be K'aresh! Playable Ethereal please?

[Snufflupagus]

I think what would help would be releasing anthologies of short stories. Instead of telling a larger story through a novel, build the war and introduce new characters through multiple short stories.I honestly am unsure that the novel sales are that important a revenue.

I’ve always wondered about this. I feel like gamers aren’t typically big readers and non-gamers aren’t going read WoW books, so the crossover is already pretty slim. On top of that, big readers are often inclined to read stuff that’s a bit more worthwhile, so even the big-reading gamers probably aren’t chewing through WoW novels. It’s got to be a pretty small market indeed.

Furthermore, books notoriously don’t exactly make stacks of money, and WoW novels aren’t topping bestseller lists. Surely it’s clear that the main purpose of the novels is to tell the story rather than to make money? And surely that could be done more quickly, cheaply, and with a bigger readership (I wouldn’t read a WoW novel in a million years but I’d page through a short story in my lunch break) if the stories were posted for free?

[Nymrohd]

I’ve always wondered about this. I feel like gamers aren’t typically big readers and non-gamers aren’t going read WoW books, so the crossover is already pretty slim. On top of that, big readers are often inclined to read stuff that’s a bit more worthwhile, so even the big-reading gamers probably aren’t chewing through WoW novels. It’s got to be a pretty small market indeed.

Furthermore, books notoriously don’t exactly make stacks of money, and WoW novels aren’t topping bestseller lists. Surely it’s clear that the main purpose of the novels is to tell the story rather than to make money? And surely that could be done more quickly, cheaply, and with a bigger readership (I wouldn’t read a WoW novel in a million years but I’d page through a short story in my lunch break) if the stories were posted for free?

I remember for a while Magic The Gathering stopped the novels and instead released the block stories as a series of short stories for free. It wasn't the best fantasy fiction I read by any means but it was decent, in bite sized chunks and frequent enough to keep you coming back. I would love a similar format for WoW.

[Skildar]

I think what would help would be releasing anthologies of short stories. Instead of telling a larger story through a novel, build the war and introduce new characters through multiple short stories.I honestly am unsure that the novel sales are that important a revenue.

I'm not sure if the novels, being a good revenue source or not, are done to bring some kind of legitimacy to the franchise or just to do something with stories that won't make it into the game.

[Nymrohd]

I'm not sure if the novels, being a good revenue source or not, are done to bring some kind of legitimacy to the franchise or just to do something with stories that won't make it into the game.

Or, and don't hate me for this, because writers dream of their New York Time's bestseller count and just want the credit.