1. #65601
    Do all classes and specs get 30 in class tree and 31 in spec tree?

  2. #65602
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Eldre'Thalas was a metropolis built for magical research and knowledge, Darnassus was built by the druids and rebels who literally exiled all mages from the land. I'm surprised you didn't know this distinction.

    Even in design, Eldre'Thalas is clearly more civilized than Darnassus. Most of the buildings in Darnassus are made of wood and aren't even built on concrete, while the buildings in Eldre'Thalas are all made of stone.

    Darnassus has always been the city of the hippies, but now the hippies have reunited with their Highborne kin and might start to rediscover some of the more civilized culture traits they lost.
    You really like to straddle it the precipice of falling into a White Man’s Burden argument, don’t you?

  3. #65603
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    That can be fixed if need be. I doubt the Nightborne would appreciate Nelves taking Suramar.
    Sure, but if it was fixed it'd be more like Suramar than Darnassus. That's the point.

  4. #65604
    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    You really like to straddle it the precipice of falling into a White Man’s Burden argument, don’t you?
    I agree. as in, if they can shape wood into any shape they want, what is the point of masonry?

    Also, alternatively, they aren't this passive one-with-the-land race either: They're recent history involves a giant undertaking in trying to turn Silithus into a forest: That's extremely fucked up. Deserts aren't a failed biome, they're an ecological feature that serves a purpose as much as their Forests, and trying to turn it into a Forest shows they consider themselves the masters of nature rather than its servants: The Night Elves approach to nature is as self-serving as any other race.

    New existential question: If Dragons choose their visage on their nameday, that means most of them were taking the form of High Elves, thousands of years before High Elves even existed. What's that about? Is their some sort of inherent evolutional function of the High elf form (don't let Varodoc see this post)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiriastrasza View Post
    Looks like Tinker has finally been fully incorporated into the engineering profession, Sorry to the guys who wanted it.

    Credit to Soulsobreezy for the image.
    This is fine.... if they eventually give the professions a combat spec tree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    Never. She just happened to have died during Malfurion's rescue from Xavius. Wasn't a sacrifice at all. It's pretty far fetched.
    Xavius created a scenario where Tyrande could choose to save Malfurion or Ysera from corruption & Tyrande chose Malfurion. Or perhaps he's thinking if he had just died in the War of the Thorns Teldrassil would have never have been burned.

    It doesn't really explain why Malfurion did nothing during Shadowlands, but it makes sense if killing Malfurion off was the whole endgoal of this whole ysera storyline.
    Last edited by Ersula; 2022-08-11 at 03:02 AM.

  5. #65605
    Bloodsail Admiral Schwert's Avatar
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    Feels like the people ignoring Malfurion are ignoring WC3, or like to pretend Xaevius is him with the Legion crap.
    WoW refused to use him and are just axing something with massive potential, see the Darkshore cinematic, just to... give more grief to Night Elves?
    What's even the point of killing him off? The souls already sacrificed themselves for the seed. Night Elf fans actually do like him and were annoyed he just sat on the sidelines for years.

    It's getting ridiculous how much they want to take from this race without even giving them a break.

    What do the Night Elves - or even the Alliance in general - have to be excited about as a group right now?

  6. #65606
    Over 9000! Lahis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schwert View Post
    What do the Night Elves - or even the Alliance in general - have to be excited about as a group right now?
    We can always look forward to the Siege of Stormwind raid after Turalyon starts his theocratic cleansing.

  7. #65607
    Quote Originally Posted by Schwert View Post
    Feels like the people ignoring Malfurion are ignoring WC3, or like to pretend Xaevius is him with the Legion crap.
    WoW refused to use him and are just axing something with massive potential, see the Darkshore cinematic, just to... give more grief to Night Elves?
    What's even the point of killing him off? The souls already sacrificed themselves for the seed. Night Elf fans actually do like him and were annoyed he just sat on the sidelines for years.

    It's getting ridiculous how much they want to take from this race without even giving them a break.
    Like, you want to get rid of Malfurion? Let him use his druidic power to merge with the seed and grow it into a massive new world tree. Then HE would be the world tree and the fate of the night elves would be in their own hands instead of having to beg dragons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schwert View Post
    What do the Night Elves - or even the Alliance in general - have to be excited about as a group right now?
    Obviously we have Sylvanas coming back to look forward.

  8. #65608
    The Insane Arafal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Because it's an overgrown ruin. The shielded parts of Suramar would be a better example to use anyway.
    Given the night elves current day culture, the city would be overgrown regardless of whether or not stays a ruin or be fully renovated.

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  9. #65609
    Brewmaster Depakote's Avatar
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    I'm not playing Dragonflight. It looks horrible, the new 'race' looks like something a 5 year old thought up and this comes from someone who loves Pandaren. There's absolutely no lore reason for dracthyr to exist other than people clamoring to play as dragon. The talent 'trees' are just a legion 2.0 talent overhaul that takes away more than it adds. IF they really wanted to fix talent trees they'd 1. undo the level squish from long ago, 2 give us more points to spend and 3 use the real talent trees from classic instead of these convoluted 'trees'. As for professions they're totally screwing that up too. Professions worked fine as they were. There's no need to create a whole mess of crap to collect to make good gear. This whole expansion just reeks of overcomplicated grindfests which are never fun.

  10. #65610
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    I'm not playing Dragonflight. It looks horrible, the new 'race' looks like something a 5 year old thought up and this comes from someone who loves Pandaren. There's absolutely no lore reason for dracthyr to exist other than people clamoring to play as dragon. The talent 'trees' are just a legion 2.0 talent overhaul that takes away more than it adds. IF they really wanted to fix talent trees they'd 1. undo the level squish from long ago, 2 give us more points to spend and 3 use the real talent trees from classic instead of these convoluted 'trees'. As for professions they're totally screwing that up too. Professions worked fine as they were. There's no need to create a whole mess of crap to collect to make good gear. This whole expansion just reeks of overcomplicated grindfests which are never fun.
    OK. Thanks for your input. The cool thing is that you don't actually have to play the game.

  11. #65611
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    I'm not playing Dragonflight. It looks horrible, the new 'race' looks like something a 5 year old thought up and this comes from someone who loves Pandaren.
    You drastically overestimate what a 5 year old can do

    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    There's absolutely no lore reason for dracthyr to exist other than people clamoring to play as dragon.
    Is there any lore reason for pandaren, nightborn, vulpera or lightforge to exist before they were introduced ? You need to let blizzard bring their stories and races, classes as they wish to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    The talent 'trees' are just a legion 2.0 talent overhaul that takes away more than it adds.
    Legion had artefact weapons in which choice only existed in the beginning of the expansion. I'm not sure I see the parallel. What does it take away? When leveling you still gain abilities, instead of it being automatic, you spend a point for it. At max level, you can choose what to spec in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    IF they really wanted to fix talent trees they'd 1. undo the level squish from long ago,
    The level squish was necessary as having too many levels removes value from what a level is and what the level progression brings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    2 give us more points to spend and 3 use the real talent trees from classic instead of these convoluted 'trees'.
    Seeing the size and complexity of some of the talent trees, I feel that we're in a good spot for their first live iteration of the new class-spec talent trees. And classic talent trees are outdated mess that barely worked on me. I've never felt satisfied having most of my points being some small buff that I have to acquire 3 or 5 times before moving to the next row.

    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    As for professions they're totally screwing that up too. Professions worked fine as they were. There's no need to create a whole mess of crap to collect to make good gear.
    profession do not work fine, they are one of the lowest point of shadowlands mechanically. Alchemy, enchanting and cooking are functioning because they are based on well established needs that are kept from expansion to expansion. The legendary crafting was a really bad experiment that they didn't dare correct before 9.2.5. This new version of professions is supposed to kill two birds with one stone. Bring more depth to crafting, with gear progression for crafters. And help resolve the gear progression from raiding that is falling behind completely compared to mm+.

    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    This whole expansion just reeks of overcomplicated grindfests which are never fun.
    If anything was taught from Shadowlands is that you can have good gameplays without grinding. There is a space when raid loggers, dungeons crawlers and daily grinders can all have fun without a feeling of having to do it all (even if currently raid loggers feel a big need to go farm dungeons with the removed cap on valor).
    So contrary to you, I'm feeling quite confident that dragonflight won't go back to being heavy on the grinding and farming.

    I took the time to write all of this because it really feels like people pushed wrong or incomplete information to you, it's not doom and gloom at all right now. But don't force yourself to play a game if it's still not your cup of tea though

  12. #65612
    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    The level squish was necessary as having too many levels removes value from what a level is and what the level progression brings.
    Uhm. This explanation is very cheap. Levels, with or without squish, have barely any value. There's hardly a progression in that regard as well. With Dragonflight you at least earn talent points, but ever since the squish you basically got nothing while leveling up. Having to reach level 150 or 50 makes no difference due to that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    Seeing the size and complexity of some of the talent trees, I feel that we're in a good spot for their first live iteration of the new class-spec talent trees. And classic talent trees are outdated mess that barely worked on me. I've never felt satisfied having most of my points being some small buff that I have to acquire 3 or 5 times before moving to the next row.
    But this issue still exists in the new trees? Granted, not as drastic as in the past, but several specs still have to put points in trash talents to unlock new nodes or get to the bottom.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  13. #65613
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Uhm. This explanation is very cheap. Levels, with or without squish, have barely any value. There's hardly a progression in that regard as well. With Dragonflight you at least earn talent points, but ever since the squish you basically got nothing while leveling up. Having to reach level 150 or 50 makes no difference due to that.
    Well getting 150 levels in the same amount of time that you would get 50 will devalue what a level means. I'm not saying that it was a complete success during shadowlands but with chromie time it was definitely a good thing for the game and with the changes of dragonflight it will finally work as they were intended in shadowlands (having each level award you something)

  14. #65614
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Uhm. This explanation is very cheap. Levels, with or without squish, have barely any value. There's hardly a progression in that regard as well. With Dragonflight you at least earn talent points, but ever since the squish you basically got nothing while leveling up. Having to reach level 150 or 50 makes no difference due to that.

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    But this issue still exists in the new trees? Granted, not as drastic as in the past, but several specs still have to put points in trash talents to unlock new nodes or get to the bottom.
    Ever since the squish, there's very few levels where you don't get anything at all though.

    It's either a new spell, a talent, or a spell upgrade.

    I wouldn't say levels had no value before the level squish though. The thing that devalues levels more than anything is scaling.

  15. #65615
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    Ever since the squish, there's very few levels where you don't get anything at all though.

    It's either a new spell, a talent, or a spell upgrade.

    I wouldn't say levels had no value before the level squish though. The thing that devalues levels more than anything is scaling.
    Most things we earned by those level ups are things they removed in the first place just to hand them back to us with a new level up. Which made the entire change really pointless.

    Sure, leveling to 150 for a brand new players sounds more intimidating than leveling to 50, but in the end it's almost the same.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  16. #65616
    Quote Originally Posted by Schwert View Post
    Feels like the people ignoring Malfurion are ignoring WC3, or like to pretend Xaevius is him with the Legion crap.
    WoW refused to use him and are just axing something with massive potential, see the Darkshore cinematic, just to... give more grief to Night Elves?
    What's even the point of killing him off? The souls already sacrificed themselves for the seed. Night Elf fans actually do like him and were annoyed he just sat on the sidelines for years.

    It's getting ridiculous how much they want to take from this race without even giving them a break.

    What do the Night Elves - or even the Alliance in general - have to be excited about as a group right now?
    Gotta second this, offing Malfurion now is just adding insult to an already long list of insults and injuries.
    Can't we just take Sylvanas out of the maw, sacrifice her, sending her back to the maw and be done with it?
    I mean we saved the Shadowlands' ass on many levels, they more than owe us beyond them asking us for sacrifices.
    Hell even Bwonsamdi owes us enough to just figure out a way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Heck she only died cause she was a chump and got corrupted instantly. Malf kept fighting the corruption forever. He is by far the stronger of the two when it comes to will.

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    I mean the reason is obvious. He's been hanging with notable nihilist Sargeras for an unknown amount of time.
    Damn it makes too much sense.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  17. #65617
    The Insane Feali's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    I'm not playing Dragonflight. It looks horrible, the new 'race' looks like something a 5 year old thought up and this comes from someone who loves Pandaren. There's absolutely no lore reason for dracthyr to exist other than people clamoring to play as dragon. The talent 'trees' are just a legion 2.0 talent overhaul that takes away more than it adds. IF they really wanted to fix talent trees they'd 1. undo the level squish from long ago, 2 give us more points to spend and 3 use the real talent trees from classic instead of these convoluted 'trees'. As for professions they're totally screwing that up too. Professions worked fine as they were. There's no need to create a whole mess of crap to collect to make good gear. This whole expansion just reeks of overcomplicated grindfests which are never fun.
    And yet you still hang out here. Curious.

  18. #65618
    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    Given the night elves current day culture, the city would be overgrown regardless of whether or not stays a ruin or be fully renovated.
    We were talking about the Highborne, were we not? You're thinking of the wrong culture, then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Xavius created a scenario where Tyrande could choose to save Malfurion or Ysera from corruption & Tyrande chose Malfurion. Or perhaps he's thinking if he had just died in the War of the Thorns Teldrassil would have never have been burned.

    It doesn't really explain why Malfurion did nothing during Shadowlands, but it makes sense if killing Malfurion off was the whole endgoal of this whole ysera storyline.
    You're misremembering that. The choice came after Ysera was corrupted and Xavius sent her to attack the temple in Val'sharah, forcing Tyrande to choose between Malfurion and it.

    Tyrande had no real way of doing anything about Ysera's corruption, and it wasn't a choice between her and Malfurion either. Neither could Malfurion do anything, for that matter. Ysera acted of her own volition.

    Either this "leak" is bunk or Blizzard forgot what the story in Legion was, as the way it goes makes no sense.

  19. #65619
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Most things we earned by those level ups are things they removed in the first place just to hand them back to us with a new level up. Which made the entire change really pointless.

    Sure, leveling to 150 for a brand new players sounds more intimidating than leveling to 50, but in the end it's almost the same.
    Does it matter if spells were split into 3 Ranks?

    Before the Level squish, you could go 10-20 levels without gaining anything, and because most zones were scaled, you didn't even notice a power difference. It was literally pointless to have levels.

    By splitting up spells, you get something most levels. You get atleast one thing up until Level 30 and then it starts turning into a "every 2 levels" thing.

    It's not that it's intimidating, it's that it's pointless to have that many levels without actually needing to have a reason to have that many levels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    We were talking about the Highborne, were we not? You're thinking of the wrong culture, then.

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    You're misremembering that. The choice came after Ysera was corrupted and Xavius sent her to attack the temple in Val'sharah, forcing Tyrande to choose between Malfurion and it.

    Tyrande had no real way of doing anything about Ysera's corruption, and it wasn't a choice between her and Malfurion either. Neither could Malfurion do anything, for that matter. Ysera acted of her own volition.

    Either this "leak" is bunk or Blizzard forgot what the story in Legion was, as the way it goes makes no sense.
    I mean, I could see the argument that because Tyrande chose to save Yseras live over Malfurion means that it is not fair that ultimately, Ysera is dead while Malfurion is alive.

    Now, that is a big reach, don't get me wrong, but I think that might be the angle they are going for here?

    Sadly, the dialogue is in the game files, but it might be a case of "Illidan is gonna be the jailer of Sargeras" type thing of scrapped dialogue.

  20. #65620
    The Insane Arafal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    We were talking about the Highborne, were we not? You're thinking of the wrong culture, then..
    No, because the Shen'dralar are a tiny highly diminished faction compared to the rest of night elf kind that grew up/lived for millenia within their heavy druidic culture post WotA.

    If the nelves take over Eldre'thalas, it will be just as overgrown as any other nelf settlement.
    Last edited by Arafal; 2022-08-11 at 11:46 AM.

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