Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Ersula]

You really like to straddle it the precipice of falling into a White Man’s Burden argument, don’t you?

I agree. as in, if they can shape wood into any shape they want, what is the point of masonry?

Also, alternatively, they aren't this passive one-with-the-land race either: They're recent history involves a giant undertaking in trying to turn Silithus into a forest: That's extremely fucked up. Deserts aren't a failed biome, they're an ecological feature that serves a purpose as much as their Forests, and trying to turn it into a Forest shows they consider themselves the masters of nature rather than its servants: The Night Elves approach to nature is as self-serving as any other race.

New existential question: If Dragons choose their visage on their nameday, that means most of them were taking the form of High Elves, thousands of years before High Elves even existed. What's that about? Is their some sort of inherent evolutional function of the High elf form (don't let Varodoc see this post)

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Looks like Tinker has finally been fully incorporated into the engineering profession, Sorry to the guys who wanted it.

Credit to Soulsobreezy for the image.

This is fine.... if they eventually give the professions a combat spec tree.

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Never. She just happened to have died during Malfurion's rescue from Xavius. Wasn't a sacrifice at all. It's pretty far fetched.

Xavius created a scenario where Tyrande could choose to save Malfurion or Ysera from corruption & Tyrande chose Malfurion. Or perhaps he's thinking if he had just died in the War of the Thorns Teldrassil would have never have been burned.

It doesn't really explain why Malfurion did nothing during Shadowlands, but it makes sense if killing Malfurion off was the whole endgoal of this whole ysera storyline.

[Schwert]

Feels like the people ignoring Malfurion are ignoring WC3, or like to pretend Xaevius is him with the Legion crap.
WoW refused to use him and are just axing something with massive potential, see the Darkshore cinematic, just to... give more grief to Night Elves?
What's even the point of killing him off? The souls already sacrificed themselves for the seed. Night Elf fans actually do like him and were annoyed he just sat on the sidelines for years.

It's getting ridiculous how much they want to take from this race without even giving them a break.

What do the Night Elves - or even the Alliance in general - have to be excited about as a group right now?

[Lahis]

What do the Night Elves - or even the Alliance in general - have to be excited about as a group right now?

We can always look forward to the Siege of Stormwind raid after Turalyon starts his theocratic cleansing.

[Nymrohd]

Feels like the people ignoring Malfurion are ignoring WC3, or like to pretend Xaevius is him with the Legion crap.
WoW refused to use him and are just axing something with massive potential, see the Darkshore cinematic, just to... give more grief to Night Elves?
What's even the point of killing him off? The souls already sacrificed themselves for the seed. Night Elf fans actually do like him and were annoyed he just sat on the sidelines for years.

It's getting ridiculous how much they want to take from this race without even giving them a break.

Like, you want to get rid of Malfurion? Let him use his druidic power to merge with the seed and grow it into a massive new world tree. Then HE would be the world tree and the fate of the night elves would be in their own hands instead of having to beg dragons.

What do the Night Elves - or even the Alliance in general - have to be excited about as a group right now?

Obviously we have Sylvanas coming back to look forward.

[Arafal]

Because it's an overgrown ruin. The shielded parts of Suramar would be a better example to use anyway.

Given the night elves current day culture, the city would be overgrown regardless of whether or not stays a ruin or be fully renovated.

[Depakote]

I'm not playing Dragonflight. It looks horrible, the new 'race' looks like something a 5 year old thought up and this comes from someone who loves Pandaren. There's absolutely no lore reason for dracthyr to exist other than people clamoring to play as dragon. The talent 'trees' are just a legion 2.0 talent overhaul that takes away more than it adds. IF they really wanted to fix talent trees they'd 1. undo the level squish from long ago, 2 give us more points to spend and 3 use the real talent trees from classic instead of these convoluted 'trees'. As for professions they're totally screwing that up too. Professions worked fine as they were. There's no need to create a whole mess of crap to collect to make good gear. This whole expansion just reeks of overcomplicated grindfests which are never fun.

[Makorus]

I'm not playing Dragonflight. It looks horrible, the new 'race' looks like something a 5 year old thought up and this comes from someone who loves Pandaren. There's absolutely no lore reason for dracthyr to exist other than people clamoring to play as dragon. The talent 'trees' are just a legion 2.0 talent overhaul that takes away more than it adds. IF they really wanted to fix talent trees they'd 1. undo the level squish from long ago, 2 give us more points to spend and 3 use the real talent trees from classic instead of these convoluted 'trees'. As for professions they're totally screwing that up too. Professions worked fine as they were. There's no need to create a whole mess of crap to collect to make good gear. This whole expansion just reeks of overcomplicated grindfests which are never fun.

OK. Thanks for your input. The cool thing is that you don't actually have to play the game.

[Skildar]

I'm not playing Dragonflight. It looks horrible, the new 'race' looks like something a 5 year old thought up and this comes from someone who loves Pandaren.

You drastically overestimate what a 5 year old can do

There's absolutely no lore reason for dracthyr to exist other than people clamoring to play as dragon.

Is there any lore reason for pandaren, nightborn, vulpera or lightforge to exist before they were introduced ? You need to let blizzard bring their stories and races, classes as they wish to.

The talent 'trees' are just a legion 2.0 talent overhaul that takes away more than it adds.

Legion had artefact weapons in which choice only existed in the beginning of the expansion. I'm not sure I see the parallel. What does it take away? When leveling you still gain abilities, instead of it being automatic, you spend a point for it. At max level, you can choose what to spec in.

IF they really wanted to fix talent trees they'd 1. undo the level squish from long ago,

The level squish was necessary as having too many levels removes value from what a level is and what the level progression brings.

2 give us more points to spend and 3 use the real talent trees from classic instead of these convoluted 'trees'.

Seeing the size and complexity of some of the talent trees, I feel that we're in a good spot for their first live iteration of the new class-spec talent trees. And classic talent trees are outdated mess that barely worked on me. I've never felt satisfied having most of my points being some small buff that I have to acquire 3 or 5 times before moving to the next row.

As for professions they're totally screwing that up too. Professions worked fine as they were. There's no need to create a whole mess of crap to collect to make good gear.

profession do not work fine, they are one of the lowest point of shadowlands mechanically. Alchemy, enchanting and cooking are functioning because they are based on well established needs that are kept from expansion to expansion. The legendary crafting was a really bad experiment that they didn't dare correct before 9.2.5. This new version of professions is supposed to kill two birds with one stone. Bring more depth to crafting, with gear progression for crafters. And help resolve the gear progression from raiding that is falling behind completely compared to mm+.

This whole expansion just reeks of overcomplicated grindfests which are never fun.

If anything was taught from Shadowlands is that you can have good gameplays without grinding. There is a space when raid loggers, dungeons crawlers and daily grinders can all have fun without a feeling of having to do it all (even if currently raid loggers feel a big need to go farm dungeons with the removed cap on valor).
So contrary to you, I'm feeling quite confident that dragonflight won't go back to being heavy on the grinding and farming.

I took the time to write all of this because it really feels like people pushed wrong or incomplete information to you, it's not doom and gloom at all right now. But don't force yourself to play a game if it's still not your cup of tea though

[Nyel]

The level squish was necessary as having too many levels removes value from what a level is and what the level progression brings.

Uhm. This explanation is very cheap. Levels, with or without squish, have barely any value. There's hardly a progression in that regard as well. With Dragonflight you at least earn talent points, but ever since the squish you basically got nothing while leveling up. Having to reach level 150 or 50 makes no difference due to that.

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Seeing the size and complexity of some of the talent trees, I feel that we're in a good spot for their first live iteration of the new class-spec talent trees. And classic talent trees are outdated mess that barely worked on me. I've never felt satisfied having most of my points being some small buff that I have to acquire 3 or 5 times before moving to the next row.

But this issue still exists in the new trees? Granted, not as drastic as in the past, but several specs still have to put points in trash talents to unlock new nodes or get to the bottom.

[Skildar]

Uhm. This explanation is very cheap. Levels, with or without squish, have barely any value. There's hardly a progression in that regard as well. With Dragonflight you at least earn talent points, but ever since the squish you basically got nothing while leveling up. Having to reach level 150 or 50 makes no difference due to that.

Well getting 150 levels in the same amount of time that you would get 50 will devalue what a level means. I'm not saying that it was a complete success during shadowlands but with chromie time it was definitely a good thing for the game and with the changes of dragonflight it will finally work as they were intended in shadowlands (having each level award you something)

[Makorus]

Uhm. This explanation is very cheap. Levels, with or without squish, have barely any value. There's hardly a progression in that regard as well. With Dragonflight you at least earn talent points, but ever since the squish you basically got nothing while leveling up. Having to reach level 150 or 50 makes no difference due to that.

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But this issue still exists in the new trees? Granted, not as drastic as in the past, but several specs still have to put points in trash talents to unlock new nodes or get to the bottom.

Ever since the squish, there's very few levels where you don't get anything at all though.

It's either a new spell, a talent, or a spell upgrade.

I wouldn't say levels had no value before the level squish though. The thing that devalues levels more than anything is scaling.

[Nyel]

Ever since the squish, there's very few levels where you don't get anything at all though.

It's either a new spell, a talent, or a spell upgrade.

I wouldn't say levels had no value before the level squish though. The thing that devalues levels more than anything is scaling.

Most things we earned by those level ups are things they removed in the first place just to hand them back to us with a new level up. Which made the entire change really pointless.

Sure, leveling to 150 for a brand new players sounds more intimidating than leveling to 50, but in the end it's almost the same.

[loras]

Feels like the people ignoring Malfurion are ignoring WC3, or like to pretend Xaevius is him with the Legion crap.
WoW refused to use him and are just axing something with massive potential, see the Darkshore cinematic, just to... give more grief to Night Elves?
What's even the point of killing him off? The souls already sacrificed themselves for the seed. Night Elf fans actually do like him and were annoyed he just sat on the sidelines for years.

It's getting ridiculous how much they want to take from this race without even giving them a break.

What do the Night Elves - or even the Alliance in general - have to be excited about as a group right now?

Gotta second this, offing Malfurion now is just adding insult to an already long list of insults and injuries.
Can't we just take Sylvanas out of the maw, sacrifice her, sending her back to the maw and be done with it?
I mean we saved the Shadowlands' ass on many levels, they more than owe us beyond them asking us for sacrifices.
Hell even Bwonsamdi owes us enough to just figure out a way.

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Heck she only died cause she was a chump and got corrupted instantly. Malf kept fighting the corruption forever. He is by far the stronger of the two when it comes to will.

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I mean the reason is obvious. He's been hanging with notable nihilist Sargeras for an unknown amount of time.

Damn it makes too much sense.

[Feali]

I'm not playing Dragonflight. It looks horrible, the new 'race' looks like something a 5 year old thought up and this comes from someone who loves Pandaren. There's absolutely no lore reason for dracthyr to exist other than people clamoring to play as dragon. The talent 'trees' are just a legion 2.0 talent overhaul that takes away more than it adds. IF they really wanted to fix talent trees they'd 1. undo the level squish from long ago, 2 give us more points to spend and 3 use the real talent trees from classic instead of these convoluted 'trees'. As for professions they're totally screwing that up too. Professions worked fine as they were. There's no need to create a whole mess of crap to collect to make good gear. This whole expansion just reeks of overcomplicated grindfests which are never fun.

And yet you still hang out here. Curious.

[huth]

Given the night elves current day culture, the city would be overgrown regardless of whether or not stays a ruin or be fully renovated.

We were talking about the Highborne, were we not? You're thinking of the wrong culture, then.

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Xavius created a scenario where Tyrande could choose to save Malfurion or Ysera from corruption & Tyrande chose Malfurion. Or perhaps he's thinking if he had just died in the War of the Thorns Teldrassil would have never have been burned.

It doesn't really explain why Malfurion did nothing during Shadowlands, but it makes sense if killing Malfurion off was the whole endgoal of this whole ysera storyline.

You're misremembering that. The choice came after Ysera was corrupted and Xavius sent her to attack the temple in Val'sharah, forcing Tyrande to choose between Malfurion and it.

Tyrande had no real way of doing anything about Ysera's corruption, and it wasn't a choice between her and Malfurion either. Neither could Malfurion do anything, for that matter. Ysera acted of her own volition.

Either this "leak" is bunk or Blizzard forgot what the story in Legion was, as the way it goes makes no sense.

[Makorus]

Most things we earned by those level ups are things they removed in the first place just to hand them back to us with a new level up. Which made the entire change really pointless.

Sure, leveling to 150 for a brand new players sounds more intimidating than leveling to 50, but in the end it's almost the same.

Does it matter if spells were split into 3 Ranks?

Before the Level squish, you could go 10-20 levels without gaining anything, and because most zones were scaled, you didn't even notice a power difference. It was literally pointless to have levels.

By splitting up spells, you get something most levels. You get atleast one thing up until Level 30 and then it starts turning into a "every 2 levels" thing.

It's not that it's intimidating, it's that it's pointless to have that many levels without actually needing to have a reason to have that many levels.

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We were talking about the Highborne, were we not? You're thinking of the wrong culture, then.

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You're misremembering that. The choice came after Ysera was corrupted and Xavius sent her to attack the temple in Val'sharah, forcing Tyrande to choose between Malfurion and it.

Tyrande had no real way of doing anything about Ysera's corruption, and it wasn't a choice between her and Malfurion either. Neither could Malfurion do anything, for that matter. Ysera acted of her own volition.

Either this "leak" is bunk or Blizzard forgot what the story in Legion was, as the way it goes makes no sense.

I mean, I could see the argument that because Tyrande chose to save Yseras live over Malfurion means that it is not fair that ultimately, Ysera is dead while Malfurion is alive.

Now, that is a big reach, don't get me wrong, but I think that might be the angle they are going for here?

Sadly, the dialogue is in the game files, but it might be a case of "Illidan is gonna be the jailer of Sargeras" type thing of scrapped dialogue.

[Arafal]

We were talking about the Highborne, were we not? You're thinking of the wrong culture, then..

No, because the Shen'dralar are a tiny highly diminished faction compared to the rest of night elf kind that grew up/lived for millenia within their heavy druidic culture post WotA.

If the nelves take over Eldre'thalas, it will be just as overgrown as any other nelf settlement.

[Nymrohd]

I mean, I could see the argument that because Tyrande chose to save Yseras live over Malfurion means that it is not fair that ultimately, Ysera is dead while Malfurion is alive.

The thing is, Tyrande explicitly makes a choice between saving the Temple of Elune and Malfurion, not between Ysera and Malfurion. To quote

Malfurion, my love.... My heart breaks for him, but I cannot follow where he goes.

I have sworn myself to Elune, my goddess, to defend her temples and lands with all that I am. I cannot stand by while my order is in danger.

May she keep you in her graces, Malfurion.

By the time Tyrande arrives, Ysera is already corrupted and Malfurion captured.

The choice could be when Ysera was corrupted trying to save Malfurion? I.e. she risked herself for him so she saved his life? Nevermind that Xavius had MULTIPLE opportunities in lore to corrupt Malfurion and he always failed.

[Tartys]

They did not know how to use Malfurion. He was supposed to be super powerful but they were afraid to make proper use of him. The wisp wall he erected was definitely amazing (and if the Night Elves and the Alliance had not been hit by the idiot bat in order for the War of Thorns to work, someone would have turned Sylvanas into a pincushion as she was struggling and barely could contain the wall so her forces could pass through). In Cata Azshara herself attacked Darkshore so as to distract Malfurion in order for Ragnaros and Deathwing to attack Hyjal.

Malfurion was simply in a league of his own. The solution was not to depower him but to simply give the Horde people who could be his equals. Thrall could before they decided to retire him, Sylvanas could have naturally been developed to that level, the blood elves should have had at least one magister that was close to Azshara's (and thus Malfurion's) level and the trolls absolutely can produce someone of that skill (Vol'jin is likely heading there).

AS for Merithra it's a shame to have her running to mother. Her quests in BfA were solid and she was on her way to become an aspect just like Kalecgos did, just like Wrathion will try. Instead she is being replaced by an established character who has had a proper arc that finished properly.

Totally.

Moreover, there is still Azshara around and in the future he could still be useful... as for Khadgar or Thrall who had paused, Malfurion could also be managed using the Emerald Dream again...

However, the thing that sounds strange to me is that it seems totally out of character from Ysera. Coming back to life is such selfish, especially by belittling her daughter.

Unless something has happened to Meritha, I don't find it credible for a mother to overshadow her daughter in this way.

Then there's Illidan, will Malfurion's death mean anything to him?

Maybe the Blizzard narrative team feel not confortable with Ysera death, but not anymore for theyr playerbase.

[Makorus]

The thing I don't understand is what they didn't like about Yseras story arc.

She didn't die needlessly, she didn't die in a stupid way (I mean, she did get impaled by a Nightmare Tear of Elune, it's not like it was some random spell), her death had impact, her SL Story arc had a good plot, dealt with her fate in a meaningful way and ended on a positive note.