Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Varodoc]

Huh? Throughout all of BfA, I clearly remember Alliance players wanting their own war-hungry character.

Let's make a clear distinction between a "war-hungry character" like MoP-Legion Jaina or WotLK Varian and a "crazy psycho lunatic bitch character" like Garrosh and Sylvanas.

What we Alliance players wanted was the former. Someone who has a spine and will not tolerate any transgression commited against the Alliance. But also someone who is not generic pure evil.

That's why many people complained how Jaina went from "beware... of me!" in BfA pre-patch, to being horny for Thrall in 8.2.

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Has science turned into a buzzword nowadays?
Sure does seem like it, not targetting you in particular here.

At any rate i remember a certain dragon settling his flaming arse squarely on the front gate, torching an entire district in one go, knocking over several statues, getting bored and flying off again after fetching his dead daughter's head, so i would not exactly overestimate its defenses either.
They're great, yeah, but next to i.e. Antorus or Ny'alotha, well, i don't think it can hold a candle to them.
And we raided those places just fine, like the bunch of merry murderhobos we are.

You are comparing an Aspect empowered by the Titans and by the Old God N'Zoth, to a faction of barbarians living in mud huts. Scientifically, your comparison doesn't make sense. What Deathwing can do is irrelevant to what the Horde can do.

Also, last I checked, we only breached Antorus thanks to the Vindicaar. Which is used by the Alliance, btw. Since the Horde are barbarians living in mud huts who couldn't possibly know how to build a spaceship.

[Xilurm]

https://twitter.com/keyboardturn/sta...dZCV50wzA&s=19

So, this is very interesting.

Space exploration expansion?

[loras]

Let's make a clear distinction between a "war-hungry character" like MoP-Legion Jaina or WotLK Varian and a "crazy psycho lunatic bitch character" like Garrosh and Sylvanas.

What we Alliance players wanted was the former. Someone who has a spine and will not tolerate any transgression commited against the Alliance. But also someone who is not generic pure evil.

That's why many people complained how Jaina went from "beware... of me!" in BfA pre-patch, to being horny for Thrall in 8.2.

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You are comparing an Aspect empowered by the Titans and by the Old God N'Zoth, to a faction of barbarians living in mud huts. Scientifically, your comparison doesn't make sense. What Deathwing can do is irrelevant to what the Horde can do.

Also, last I checked, we only breached Antorus thanks to the Vindicaar. Which is used by the Alliance, btw. Since the Horde are barbarians living in mud huts who couldn't possibly know how to build a spaceship.

Again with the buzzword variant of "science", just stop using that word if you don't know the meaning. I mean i can mangle and malform the meanings of words too if that's the game, let's give these words a little bit more photosynthesis, though i think we can quickly agree that this is pointless.

Anyway, yeah they're not comparable in raw destructive comparison, it's not like the Horde has ever had or used the capacity to wipe entire cities off the map and reshape the world in a whim? Oh wait.
It's a bit more complex than that i'll admit, but it's foolish to believe that just Saurfang's words reflect some absolute state of in-lore reality rather than it just being another perspective that indicates that, yes, Stormwind is very well defended.

But to call a city that has been sacked in the past and where the world's fattest living dragon could set his ass without encountering meaningful resistance anything close to "untakeable"? That's just factually wrong.

And yes, i am aware of the vindicaar. I also note its absence in the story since its introduction, implying the lightforged are more like the kirin'tor in that they side with the alliance but reserve their true powers for world ending threats.

[Varodoc]

Again with the buzzword variant of "science", just stop using that word if you don't know the meaning. I mean i can mangle and malform the meanings of words too if that's the game, let's give these words a little bit more photosynthesis, though i think we can quickly agree that this is pointless.

Anyway, yeah they're not comparable in raw destructive comparison, it's not like the Horde has ever had or used the capacity to wipe entire cities off the map and reshape the world in a whim? Oh wait.
It's a bit more complex than that i'll admit, but it's foolish to believe that just Saurfang's words reflect some absolute state of in-lore reality rather than it just being another perspective that indicates that, yes, Stormwind is very well defended.

But to call a city that has been sacked in the past and where the world's fattest living dragon could set his ass without encountering meaningful resistance anything close to "untakeable"? That's just factually wrong.

And yes, i am aware of the vindicaar. I also note its absence in the story since its introduction, implying the lightforged are more like the kirin'tor in that they side with the alliance but reserve their true powers for world ending threats.

Nope. You're objectively proven wrong. Canon literally disproves your headcanon.

The writers of Blizzard spoke through Saurfang and they stated that the Horde can never take Stormwind.

Don't worry though, if you go to SoO (the real Orgrimmar breached by the Alliance) and fight Garrosh, you'll enter into a nightmare where Stormwind (a fake alternate Stormwind) is breached. Same thing if you play 8.3 content. Unfortunately, a nightmare is the only place where Stormwind will ever be breached.

[Xilurm]

And they got it. Now faction wars are over, probably for good. Yet some people still feel faction-shafted.

Well Night Elves got shafted. They are a faction within a faction, would that be "race-shafted"?

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Nope. You're objectively proven wrong. Canon literally disproves your headcanon.

The writers of Blizzard spoke through Saurfang and they stated that the Horde can never take Stormwind.

Yeah because that would ruin the gameplay. Unless they also manage to remove the Horde from Orgrimmar aswell.

[Varodoc]

Well Night Elves got shafted. They are a faction within a faction, would that be "race-shafted"?

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Yeah because that would ruin the gameplay. Unless they also manage to remove the Horde from Orgrimmar aswell.

Gameplay has nothing to do with this.

Lorewise, Orgrimmar was breached and taken by the Alliance/Rebel forces at the end of MoP, with Khadgar in WoD noting that Orgrimmar was "sacked".

Lorewise, a similar scenario will never happen to Stormwind, because the Horde army can't take Stormwind. This was Canonically confirmed by the Blizzard writers speaking through the supreme general of all Horde armies.

[loras]

Mathematical impossible ultimately just means the numbers don't add up. I don't disagree that it likely wouldn't be used, but it isn't technically wrong for an attack that has no percievable chance of succeeding.

Conquest means taking and holding an objective. Destroying it isn't doing either. So yes, i could and would claim that he had not conquered it, he'd have destroyed it.
Same goes for Ny'alotha: We didn't conquer it, we destroyed it.

I suppose Rome never did conquer Carthage; They created a desert and called it peace.

But you know the nice thing about empty space?
It doesn't need to be taken fron anything, nor readily held against anything.

And so they created a new colony there and called it Carthage again.

At this point not calling it conquest is just pointless prattling about definitions.

[Xilurm]

Gameplay has nothing to do with this.

Lorewise, Orgrimmar was breached and taken by the Alliance/Rebel forces at the end of MoP, with Khadgar in WoD noting that Orgrimmar was "sacked".

Lorewise, a similar scenario will never happen to Stormwind, because the Horde army can't take Stormwind. This was Canonically confirmed by the Blizzard writers speaking through the supreme general of all Horde armies.

Yeah and they gave it back which was stupid. Jaina was right when she was saying "dismantle the Horde".

[loras]

Nope. You're objectively proven wrong. Canon literally disproves your headcanon.

The writers of Blizzard spoke through Saurfang and they stated that the Horde can never take Stormwind.

Don't worry though, if you go to SoO (the real Orgrimmar breached by the Alliance) and fight Garrosh, you'll enter into a nightmare where Stormwind (a fake alternate Stormwind) is breached. Same thing if you play 8.3 content. Unfortunately, a nightmare is the only place where Stormwind will ever be breached.

Canon literally shows a dragon's ass in Stormwind, and mentions its destruction at the hands of the previous Horde thoroughly; it is not only takeable, it has literally been taken, broken into, its defenses shown to be pointless against various sorts of threats. It is literally not untakeable because it has been taken.

"The writers spoke through Saurfang"? Holy batman do you have no sense of perspective for anything? That's about as headcanon as headcanon gets; "I am convinced random old orc general speaks absolute truths regarding this thing i totally coincidentally happen to care about.". How can you not see yourself?

I don't really care about Stormwind ever being breached in the game, it's as good a location for afight as many others.
But the thing is that we have seen it being breached, in a cinematic trailer no less. Getting into cognitive dissonance mode for whatever reason really changes nothing about that.

[Raetary]

Space exploration expansion?

Space colony expansion, the gnomes or gobs plan a space programm and send us to Marszeroth.

[loras]

Space colony expansion, the gnomes or gobs plan a space programm and send us to Marszeroth.

Didn't we send intelligent raptors to space already?
In Aszhara or something, part of the goblin starting-ish zones.

[Varodoc]

Canon literally shows a dragon's ass in Stormwind, and mentions its destruction at the hands of the previous Horde thoroughly; it is not only takeable, it has literally been taken, broken into, its defenses shown to be pointless against various sorts of threats. It is literally not untakeable because it has been taken.

"The writers spoke through Saurfang"? Holy batman do you have no sense of perspective for anything? That's about as headcanon as headcanon gets; "I am convinced random old orc general speaks absolute truths regarding this thing i totally coincidentally happen to care about.". How can you not see yourself?

I don't really care about Stormwind ever being breached in the game, it's as good a location for afight as many others.
But the thing is that we have seen it being breached, in a cinematic trailer no less. Getting into cognitive dissonance mode for whatever reason really changes nothing about that.

Your Deathwing comparison remains illogical and I already addressed it. Deathwing literally had the power to end the entire world, stop comparing him with a horde of barbarians living in mud huts.

Saurfang literally took part in the First War and he still denied any possibility of taking Stormwind. Canon simply continues to prove you wrong.

If you think Saurfang was wrong, you didn't understand the story of BfA at all. If the Horde could take Stormwind, they would have done it right away.

Also hilarious is how you try to downplay Saurfang's importance, when he was literally a veteran of the First War and a major military leader of the Horde armies.

[Xilurm]

Calling Saurfang a "random old orc" is as weird as it gets.

[Nymrohd]

Yeah and they gave it back which was stupid. Jaina was right when she was saying "dismantle the Horde".

I mean if Jaina had not been trigger happy, Varian probably would have dismantled the Horde diplomatically. First peel off the Blood Elves, then they could have gone for Baine and the Tauren.

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I don't really care about Stormwind ever being breached in the game, it's as good a location for afight as many others.
But the thing is that we have seen it being breached, in a cinematic trailer no less. Getting into cognitive dissonance mode for whatever reason really changes nothing about that.

Heck, the player and a few NPCs breached Stormwind, got one of the most dangerous people out of jail and set fire to the entire city.

[huth]

We're the END of the tunnel. We're the updated giraffe model. The unused inn. We linger in the data, awaiting our hour.

That sounds like either a cave painting or a very crammed tunnel.

[loras]

Your Deathwing comparison remains illogical and I already addressed it. Deathwing literally had the power to end the entire world, stop comparing him with a horde of barbarians living in mud huts.

Saurfang literally took part in the First War and he still denied any possibility of taking Stormwind. Canon simply continues to prove you wrong.

If you think Saurfang was wrong, you didn't understand the story of BfA at all. If the Horde could take Stormwind, they would have done it right away.

Also hilarious is how you try to downplay Saurfang's importance, when he was literally a veteran of the First War and a major military leader of the Horde armies.

He did have that power, but he barely used even a fraction of it on Stormwind while making mockery of its defenses. Meanwhile the Horde has been shown to have the capacity to rival the powers used by Deathwing to make a mockery out of Stormwind, and has used them on that once-strong human city of Theramore, demonstrating how futile defenses can be.
Adressing something is fine and dandy, but it says nothing about the quality with which you have done so, about the extent to which you have made a point at all.

Saurfang literally took part in taking Stormwind the first time, this shows that he knows he is wrpng when he states it is untakeable; he is an old soldier, he wants his glorious death and to be done with it, not to engage in yet another suicidal but not unwinnable siege of a well defended fortress. That was the whole schtick of his character in those shorts: The old soldier, tired of fighting, seeking to make a difference by ending a war in a remotely positive sense for once.

Did you miss the part where the Horde sailed for Zandalar because they lacked the ships? The question of "could we take Stormwind" has not at any point in the BfA campaign been relevant because they literally couldn't get there in any meaningful capacity.
But you know what that says about Stormwind being untakeable? Exactly jackshit, it just means that the wooden wall is holding. It's like with Great Britain: If the island is breached in a meaningful manner then no Brit has any illusions about winning, about the island being untakeable by any virtue of its own. Yet the Eastern Kingdoms are a bit harder to defend and a little bit less unified than Great Britain, no?

Saurfang is literally a random orc, he has some historical, tactical and strategic insights, but nothing of relevance for assessing any objective truths. Even the titans have been demonstrated to not always have such insights, what is an orc next to that? You focussing on him here just blows his relevance way out of proportion.

[Varodoc]

Heck, the player and a few NPCs breached Stormwind, got one of the most dangerous people out of jail and set fire to the entire city.

They never "breached" Stormwind, what? All they did was sneak into Stormwind at night, which an army obviously can't do.

Following your logic, Tyrion and Davos also "breached" King's Landing when they infiltrated the city in S7.

Infiltrating a city with a few other people =/= Breaching a city during a siege

Also: 1) they didn't set fire to the entire city, only to the buildings in front of the harbour and 2) in the CGI 8.1 cinematic, where Anduin frees Saurfang, said buildings were shown to be in a perfect state, meaning that whatever damage Zul did was irrelevant and quickly fixed.

[huth]

Canon literally shows a dragon's ass in Stormwind, and mentions its destruction at the hands of the previous Horde thoroughly; it is not only takeable, it has literally been taken, broken into, its defenses shown to be pointless against various sorts of threats. It is literally not untakeable because it has been taken.

And it hasn't been claimed to be untakable. It has been said to be unconquerable by the Horde as they were in BfA. That's a completely different situation.

[Varodoc]

He did have that power, but he barely used even a fraction of it on Stormwind while making mockery of its defenses. Meanwhile the Horde has been shown to have the capacity to rival the powers used by Deathwing to make a mockery out of Stormwind, and has used them on that once-strong human city of Theramore, demonstrating how futile defenses can be.

The Horde only destroyed Theramore through the Focusing Iris, a power used by Malygos (another Dragon aspect). Without it, the Horde would have never been able to nuke Theramore, and they no longer have the Iris anyway.

Saurfang literally took part in taking Stormwind the first time, this shows that he knows he is wrpng when he states it is untakeable; he is an old soldier, he wants his glorious death and to be done with it, not to engage in yet another suicidal but not unwinnable siege of a well defended fortress. That was the whole schtick of his character in those shorts: The old soldier, tired of fighting, seeking to make a difference by ending a war in a remotely positive sense for once.

Your headcanon is noted and you clearly put a lot of work into it, but it's largely irrelevant. 1) Stormwind in the First War was alone and not part of any international alliance and 2) Sylvanas doesn't disprove what he says and in fact agrees that they can't currently take Stormwind.

Did you miss the part where the Horde sailed for Zandalar because they lacked the ships? The question of "could we take Stormwind" has not at any point in the BfA campaign been relevant because they literally couldn't get there in any meaningful capacity.

Are you by any chance referring to the ships that were destroyed in patch 8.1 by the Alliance?

Saurfang is literally a random orc

Nice headcanon. He was the second-in-command of the Warchief, a major military general in the Horde army, and a veteran of the First War and the battles at Stormwind. He wasn't a random orc, no matter how hard you insist on the fact that he was old.

[huth]

Are you by any chance referring to the ships that were destroyed in patch 8.1 by the Alliance?

You're missing the other obvious flaw: The Horde can't take Stormwind because it can't get there. These aren't mutually exclusive issues, logistics is a major part of war and strategy.