1. #65841
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Heck, the player and a few NPCs breached Stormwind, got one of the most dangerous people out of jail and set fire to the entire city.
    They never "breached" Stormwind, what? All they did was sneak into Stormwind at night, which an army obviously can't do.

    Following your logic, Tyrion and Davos also "breached" King's Landing when they infiltrated the city in S7.

    Infiltrating a city with a few other people =/= Breaching a city during a siege

    Also: 1) they didn't set fire to the entire city, only to the buildings in front of the harbour and 2) in the CGI 8.1 cinematic, where Anduin frees Saurfang, said buildings were shown to be in a perfect state, meaning that whatever damage Zul did was irrelevant and quickly fixed.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2022-08-21 at 01:40 PM.

  2. #65842
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    Canon literally shows a dragon's ass in Stormwind, and mentions its destruction at the hands of the previous Horde thoroughly; it is not only takeable, it has literally been taken, broken into, its defenses shown to be pointless against various sorts of threats. It is literally not untakeable because it has been taken.
    And it hasn't been claimed to be untakable. It has been said to be unconquerable by the Horde as they were in BfA. That's a completely different situation.

  3. #65843
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    He did have that power, but he barely used even a fraction of it on Stormwind while making mockery of its defenses. Meanwhile the Horde has been shown to have the capacity to rival the powers used by Deathwing to make a mockery out of Stormwind, and has used them on that once-strong human city of Theramore, demonstrating how futile defenses can be.
    The Horde only destroyed Theramore through the Focusing Iris, a power used by Malygos (another Dragon aspect). Without it, the Horde would have never been able to nuke Theramore, and they no longer have the Iris anyway.

    Saurfang literally took part in taking Stormwind the first time, this shows that he knows he is wrpng when he states it is untakeable; he is an old soldier, he wants his glorious death and to be done with it, not to engage in yet another suicidal but not unwinnable siege of a well defended fortress. That was the whole schtick of his character in those shorts: The old soldier, tired of fighting, seeking to make a difference by ending a war in a remotely positive sense for once.
    Your headcanon is noted and you clearly put a lot of work into it, but it's largely irrelevant. 1) Stormwind in the First War was alone and not part of any international alliance and 2) Sylvanas doesn't disprove what he says and in fact agrees that they can't currently take Stormwind.

    Did you miss the part where the Horde sailed for Zandalar because they lacked the ships? The question of "could we take Stormwind" has not at any point in the BfA campaign been relevant because they literally couldn't get there in any meaningful capacity.
    Are you by any chance referring to the ships that were destroyed in patch 8.1 by the Alliance?

    Saurfang is literally a random orc
    Nice headcanon. He was the second-in-command of the Warchief, a major military general in the Horde army, and a veteran of the First War and the battles at Stormwind. He wasn't a random orc, no matter how hard you insist on the fact that he was old.

  4. #65844
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Are you by any chance referring to the ships that were destroyed in patch 8.1 by the Alliance?
    You're missing the other obvious flaw: The Horde can't take Stormwind because it can't get there. These aren't mutually exclusive issues, logistics is a major part of war and strategy.

  5. #65845
    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Man View Post
    So I'm assuming two weeks until pre-patch hits the ptr
    Assuming it goes live on the leaked date that means tons of fun with the new talents
    I'm guessing the legendaries get deactivated so we will have the usual whine about having less than we do now ignoring the fact you can have the entirety of a talent row

    I am curious about how far our gear will be able to get us through the leveling process and I'm assuming prepatch will give atleast 240 so I gotta hurry and level my priest for the AR heritage

    There's also some certainty that we will see legendaries return from wrathion or his brother with only flavor differences
    I doubt Legendaries will be deactivated. Seems more likely they will change them to have a max level, and also changed to generic "increase damage by X%" effects where applicable.
    You will also seemingly keep your covenant abilities going by how Dracthyr got some generic ones. They even get a Unity effect, so we know that at least that one will still work.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  6. #65846
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    The writers of Blizzard spoke through Saurfang and they stated that the Horde can never take Stormwind.
    You're missing the essence of Saurfang and Sylvanas' conversation in Before the Storm. The Horde couldn't take Stormwind in a direct assault if the Horde attacked Stormwind apropos of nothing, yes. But the original plan was to siege and hold Teldrassil for ransom, basically using it as a stalking horse to blunt Stormwind's ability to attack - and after bleeding the Alliance out for a time, Saurfang agreed that even Stormwind could be taken and held by the Horde. Obviously, the War of Thorns didn't play out in the manner Saurfang expected it to, as Sylvanas had ulterior motives given her relationship with the Jailer, but Saurfang admitted that the original strategy was sound enough to earn his backing.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  7. #65847
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I doubt Legendaries will be deactivated. Seems more likely they will change them to have a max level, and also changed to generic "increase damage by X%" effects where applicable.
    You will also seemingly keep your covenant abilities going by how Dracthyr got some generic ones. They even get a Unity effect, so we know that at least that one will still work.
    We've known that Covenant stuff is not going away for months already. It'll be like the Heart of Azeroth (i.e. not working in the new zones). I've yet to see any explanation why that doesn't work on the Dragon Isles, though. We're back to Azeroth, her Heart should be powered again.

  8. #65848
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    You're missing the essence of Saurfang and Sylvanas' conversation in Before the Storm. The Horde couldn't take Stormwind in a direct assault if the Horde attacked Stormwind apropos of nothing, yes. But the original plan was to siege and hold Teldrassil for ransom, basically using it as a stalking horse to blunt Stormwind's ability to attack - and after bleeding the Alliance out for a time, Saurfang agreed that even Stormwind could be taken and held by the Horde. Obviously, the War of Thorns didn't play out in the manner Saurfang expected it to, as Sylvanas had ulterior motives given her relationship with the Jailer, but Saurfang admitted that the original strategy was sound enough to earn his backing.
    No, their original plan was to cause the Alliance to break apart and you omitted that from your post.

    Stormwind can only be taken if it's one isolated kingdom against an entire faction, just like it was in the First War. Since the Alliance will never fall apart, Stormwind is not falling to any army.

  9. #65849
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    We've known that Covenant stuff is not going away for months already. It'll be like the Heart of Azeroth (i.e. not working in the new zones). I've yet to see any explanation why that doesn't work on the Dragon Isles, though. We're back to Azeroth, her Heart should be powered again.
    I wouldnt be surprised if it did work, just with a few tweaks on the abilities that would still be useful this far ahead. I mean sure, having the extra butt onto press is nice and all, but I doubt a 1k crit every minute outweighs one fiftieth of the stats.
    Last edited by Sondrelk; 2022-08-21 at 07:04 PM.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  10. #65850
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    No, their original plan was to cause the Alliance to break apart and you omitted that from your post.

    Stormwind can only be taken if it's one isolated kingdom against an entire faction, just like it was in the First War. Since the Alliance will never fall apart, Stormwind is not falling to any army.
    No, taking and holding Teldrassil wouldn't make the Alliance "break apart" in any meaningful fashion. It would simply make it more difficult for the Alliance to wield their full might due to the fear of Teldrassil paying for each reprisal, which allows an aggressor force to slowly but surely whittle away at their armies until eventually, they lack the willpower or conviction to oppose their enemy. It's a pretty tried and true tactic from the modern era of warfare.

    Stormwind is neither impregnable nor invincible, neither is Orgrimmar for that matter. The Horde might be able to sack Stormwind with the appropriate show of arms, but what the Alliance really does is prevent them from holding it in a meaningful fashion since the rest of the Alliance nations would likely come to their aid with an overwhelming show of force. But if the Horde could hold Teldrassil hostage, and exact a bloody toll from the Kaldorei for every Alliance reprisal, it would ultimately put a massive damper on Alliance counters, letting the Horde move and strike with relative impunity unless the Alliance gave up on safeguarding one of their client nations. And, if they did that, it would endanger the unity that makes the Alliance so formidable to begin with.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  11. #65851
    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    Space exploration expansion?
    Legion, which that model is from, could be called that to a very minor extent, so sure.

  12. #65852
    Epic! Merryck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marlamin View Post
    Legion, which that model is from, could be called that to a very minor extent, so sure.
    We went to around 10 different worlds (Argus, 6 invasion points, Elunaria, Mardum, Dreadscar rift technically?), so yeah definitely the space exploration expansion.

  13. #65853
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I wouldnt be surprised if it did work, just with a few tweaks on the abilities that would still be useful this far ahead. I mean sure, having the extra butt onto press is nice and all, but I doubt a 1k crit every minute outweighs one fiftieth of the stats.
    I don't think a few tweaks will do it for a cheat death or a chance to get your main CD for free.

  14. #65854
    Excitement for DF is literally 0 now that they keep updating Hunters and we get 0 news about Priests.
    Priests are gonna need to get the most insane changes ever for me to care again about the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aydinx2
    People who don't buy the deluxe edition should be permanently banned. I'm sick of playing with poor people.

  15. #65855
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    No, taking and holding Teldrassil wouldn't make the Alliance "break apart" in any meaningful fashion. It would simply make it more difficult for the Alliance to wield their full might due to the fear of Teldrassil paying for each reprisal, which allows an aggressor force to slowly but surely whittle away at their armies until eventually, they lack the willpower or conviction to oppose their enemy. It's a pretty tried and true tactic from the modern era of warfare.

    Stormwind is neither impregnable nor invincible, neither is Orgrimmar for that matter. The Horde might be able to sack Stormwind with the appropriate show of arms, but what the Alliance really does is prevent them from holding it in a meaningful fashion since the rest of the Alliance nations would likely come to their aid with an overwhelming show of force. But if the Horde could hold Teldrassil hostage, and exact a bloody toll from the Kaldorei for every Alliance reprisal, it would ultimately put a massive damper on Alliance counters, letting the Horde move and strike with relative impunity unless the Alliance gave up on safeguarding one of their client nations. And, if they did that, it would endanger the unity that makes the Alliance so formidable to begin with.
    A Good War proves you wrong.

    Sylvanas’s eyes disappeared beneath the edge of her hood. “They lost their nation years ago. The Gilneans will be furious if the Alliance acts to help the kaldorei first,” she said. “The boy in Stormwind will have a political crisis on his hands. He is smart, but he is not experienced. What happens when Genn Greymane, Malfurion Stormrage, and Tyrande Whisperwind all demand differing actions? He is not a high king like his father. The respect the others give him is a courtesy, not an obligation. Anduin Wrynn will rapidly become a leader who cannot act. If the Alliance will not march as one, each nation will act in its own interest. Each army will return home to protect their lands from us.”

    “And that is how you defeat Stormwind.”
    Saurfang was in awe. It was brilliant. Destroying the Alliance wouldn’t take a thousand victories. It would take one. With a single strategic push, the pressure on the Alliance would cripple them for years, just as long as they could not conjure any miracles on the battlefield. “You destroy the Alliance from within. Their military might counts for nothing if their members stand alone. Then we strike peace with the individual nations and carve them away from the Alliance, piece by piece.
    Why did you not know this, Aucald? Did you not read A Good War? Why did you no read it?

    Regardless, as the above passage states, their strategy to defeat Stormwind was to cause the Alliance to fall apart from within and then pick off each individual kingdom, leaving Stormwind isolated and alone.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2022-08-21 at 07:45 PM.

  16. #65856
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    A Good War proves you wrong.



    Why did you not know this, Aucald? Did you not read A Good War? Why did you no read it?

    Regardless, as the above passage states, their strategy to defeat Stormwind was to cause the Alliance to fall apart from within and then pick off each individual kingdom, leaving Stormwind isolated and alone.
    A Good War doesn't prove him wrong. This was made clear in Elegy.

    That may have been Sylvanas plan, but Genn basically scoffs at the idea of not helping Tyrande because the Night Elves saved them.

  17. #65857
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    I don't think a few tweaks will do it for a cheat death or a chance to get your main CD for free.
    The cooldown reduction one is definitely the one outlier, but I feel like that could be fixed by simply nerfing that one specifically. They have the ability to make gear effects with maximum level brackets, so I don't see why this couldnt be the case for the HoA.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  18. #65858
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    A Good War proves you wrong.
    As I said before, the War of Thorns did not go as planned due to Sylvanas' ulterior goals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Why did you not know this, Aucald? Did you not read A Good War? Why did you no read it?

    Regardless, as the above passage states, their strategy to defeat Stormwind was to cause the Alliance to fall apart from within and then pick off each individual kingdom, leaving Stormwind isolated and alone.
    That is basically what I was talking about, yes. Blunting the Alliance's ability to act, letting the Horde move with relative impunity and slowly bleed it out over time. But again, it's less about making the Alliance "fall apart" and more about preventing it from moving as one. If the Alliance couldn't strike as one without bringing harm to one of its protectorates and thus giving the appearance of either inaction or negligence, it would fracture them. And even if they didn't fracture, they still couldn't bring their full might to bear. Either way, according to Sylvanas and Saurfang's original strategy, the goal was a Horde victory through attrition. Whether weakened in number or weakened in might, a Stormwind handicapped wouldn't stand.

    As per A Good War with relevant emphasis:
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    “How would that happen? If we launch a sneak attack on the night elves’ home, the entire Alliance will seek vengeance.”

    At first, yes. They will be furious, united against our aggression,” she said. “But what will the night elves want more than anything? They will demand that the Alliance help retake their conquered home.”

    But the Alliance will not have the strength, not in Kalimdor, not with their fleets.

    Again. She had done it again. She had opened his mind to a new possibility, and the world shifted under his feet. The strategic implications spun out before him like the Maelstrom. “It will take years before they can even consider retaking Darnassus.

    “You understand, High Overlord,” Sylvanas said. “Think it through. What happens next?”

    “They might try to conquer the Undercity . . . but Darnassus becomes our hostage against that. The night elves will not allow your city to fall if they fear it means you will destroy theirs. The same goes for a strike against Silvermoon.” Saurfang’s thoughts raced. She’s right. This could work. (Source)
    Holding Teldrassil prevents the Alliance from moving forward unilaterally against the Horde, and they lack the naval power to directly take the fight to Teldrassil with the Horde in consolidated control of Kalimdor. Additionally, Sylvanas believes that if Anduin did indeed plan a strike on Kalimdor despite the Alliance's diminished navies, the Gilneans would be furious at Anduin's inaction in regard to their taken lands - but we know Sylvanas is wrong about that.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2022-08-21 at 08:44 PM.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  19. #65859
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    As I said before, the War of Thorns did not go as planned due to Sylvanas' ulterior goals.



    That is basically what I was talking about, yes. Blunting the Alliance's ability to act, letting the Horde move with relative impunity and slowly bleed it out over time. But again, it's less about making the Alliance "fall apart" and more about preventing it from moving as one. If the Alliance couldn't strike as one without bringing harm to one of its protectorates and thus giving the appearance of either inaction or negligence, it would fracture them. And even if they didn't fracture, they still couldn't bring their full might to bear. Either way, according to Sylvanas and Saurfang's original strategy, the goal was a Horde victory through attrition. Whether weakened in number or weakened in might, a Stormwind handicapped wouldn't stand.
    At least, that's what they believed to be the case. We never found out if they're right since Sylvanas derailed the plan and the following war turned rather poorly for the Horde. Though given what we saw from the Void Elves and the Horde's inability to hold Darkshore, it might not actually have worked all that well.

  20. #65860
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    At least, that's what they believed to be the case. We never found out if they're right since Sylvanas derailed the plan and the following war turned rather poorly for the Horde. Though given what we saw from the Void Elves and the Horde's inability to hold Darkshore, it might not actually have worked all that well.
    No, and it's an open question as to whether Sylvanas actually believed it or simply used that chain or logic to get Saurfang's buy-in for her true goal - a whole lot of death in a minimal timeframe, feeding the Jailer by sending everyone involved directly to the Maw. Sylvanas and Saurfang were also ultimately wrong about Greymane and Anduin, as well; and they didn't know about the Night Warrior to factor into their calculus, either.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

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