Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Makabreska]

As I said: Tuning. Most of the stuff you mentioned is not enough to pala. Other healers have the exact same tools. And again: It is not just the healing spec, but rather the entire classes that should be taken into account.

Uh, no dude. Other healers do not have exact same tools. Healing classes would be homogenized af if that was true and hpala would not be a utility powerhouse it is know till this day.

[Nymrohd]

Is Hpala really worse, with it's auras, BoPs, bubble, Beacon, BoSacrifice, Lay on Hands, CC removal? Not to mention, hpala did ridiculous dmg this expansion.

Ashen Hallow is going away and completely distorted both Holy and Prot for this expac, giving us a spot when Prot was rather mediocre. Holy is great for raids and will most likely remain great for raids simply because of Beacon and Defensive Aura. Without Ashen Hallow though, Holy is mediocre for M+.
Prot was carried by Hallow in raids; it has consistently been among the weakest tanks in mitigation for years (which will forever be weird to older players who remember Tankadins having the smoothest damage intake) and carried by damage and utility. In DF they are moving back to making full time of Active Mitigation for Tankadins impossible; if it ends up like Legion when we would simply get gimped outside AM and had to plan cooldowns for every break in uptime the spec will suffer.

[UndedoKoleda]

Out of all healers, Mistweaver is usually considered the most replacable. The lack of mandatory utility offered by the class is one of the reasons, that's why giving them a battle rezz would make way more sense than handing it to Paladins which are and almost always have been one of the mandatory healing classes.

Don't know about Paladins getting a battle rezz. They are already a healer that everybody wants to have and that has a lot of utility. What about Monks, maybe for once? The class is mostly useless and is never considered a mandatory part of a raid. Same goes for Evoker getting Heroism / Bloodlust, why? Evoker has already TONS of utility, they really don't need this.

Dragonflight launching end of November sounds plausible now and it's... okay? I like November releases, it feels more natural than the August expansion launches for Legion and BfA.

The discussion started about Mistweavers' place in raids, and I think that these two comments are absolutely spot on.

I only raided the first tier(CoN) this expansion, though, but from what I remember, everyone preferred bringing Resto Shaman(Spirit Link), Holy Pala(Aura Mastery + Ashen Hallow), or Disc Priest(Spirit Shell) and there was absolutely no reason to take Holy Priest, Resto Druid or MW Monk, over the first three, if both were available(with the exception of the Kael fight, I guess).
Almost every raid having BM as one of the tanks, sorted the problem with Mystic Touch. At least I don't recall anyone bringing a MW to a raid in order to get this debuff.

[Kiivar86]

Question since I've seen this used here and elsewhere - where did CR come about as a term? I've only ever seen BR for Battle Rez before but in the last 24 hours I see CR (combat rez I'm guessing) all over the place, as though it was the agreed upon term since forever.

Was it used frequently in many places or something before and I just missed it? It strikes me as odd.

[Izalla]

Question since I've seen this used here and elsewhere - where did CR come about as a term? I've only ever seen BR for Battle Rez before but in the last 24 hours I see CR (combat rez I'm guessing) all over the place, as though it was the agreed upon term since forever.

Was it used frequently in many places or something before and I just missed it? It strikes me as odd.

Oh my god thank you, I thought I was having a stroke reading CR and going "...combat rez I guess? I really haven't raided in a while because I forgot what to call it."

I did forget what to call it but the fact combat rez didn't sound familiar was tripping me up.

Battle rez.

- - - Updated - - -

I just went to read what they called in on the Ion interview summary in case that was the culprit but MMOC called it "battle resurrection". Too lazy to watch the full interview to hear what Ion himself called it.

[Kiivar86]

Oh my god thank you, I thought I was having a stroke reading CR and going "...combat rez I guess? I really haven't raided in a while because I forgot what to call it."

I did forget what to call it but the fact combat rez didn't sound familiar was tripping me up.

Battle rez.

- - - Updated - - -

I just went to read what they called in on the Ion interview summary in case that was the culprit but MMOC called it "battle resurrection". Too lazy to watch the full interview to hear what Ion himself called it.

Glad I'm not alone! It left me scratching my head. I don't raid seriously so maybe its used there but I figure such would filter down to LFR and the like, but its all brez there instead.

[Fahrad Wagner]

Glad I'm not alone! It left me scratching my head. I don't raid seriously so maybe its used there but I figure such would filter down to LFR and the like, but its all brez there instead.

Same here pal

[Rageonit]

and there was absolutely no reason to take Holy Priest, Resto Druid or MW Monk, over the first three

Oh the irony, conisdering those were the three most powerful (hps wise, but not only) specs in s3 and saw A LOT of play.
Players gonna moan, that's what players do, but in reality, everyone has their time to shine - and outside of the very top, you can play whatever you want anyway. When you read discussions like this, you always start to wonder how much those people who complain the most play the actual game.

[Ersula]

Twisting Nether is to Disorder what the Shadowlands are to Death. It is a magic plane associated with one of the cosmic forces. There's probably a Zereth there somewhere, though i wouldn't be surprised if it is basically impossible to reach from there.

Again I point out how much of this is a matter of interpretation, as nothing of the sort has been concretely explained: The Twisting Nether and Disorder are not depicted anything like how Death & the Shadowlands are on the cosmology chart (the shadowlands & death regions are touching: the twisting nether isn't on the chart at all) As well as I don't think the canon has mentioned "the great dark beyond" for over a decade. Who's to say they aren't different in-universe cultures' names for the same thing.

That being said: Remember when I insisted it didn't make sense that there would be a Zereth for all 6 of the cosmic forces? We've gotten confirmation that I was wrong, but it still doesn't make any sense: If the Automa were creating the basis for all living things in Zereth Mortis, the question remains what the hell would they be doing in Zereth Vitae? That's the life one, then why is life being created at Zereth Mortis?

As much as I want to give Danuser some slack I don't think he likes thinking through any of these things.

[huth]

Again I point out how much of this is a matter of interpretation, as nothing of the sort has been concretely explained:

Except you're wrong and it has. Your "evidence" to the contrary on the other hand is meaningless, as the location on the chart doesn't actually mean anything. It's made to look pretty, not to clarify relationships.

[8bithamster]

Oh my god thank you, I thought I was having a stroke reading CR and going "...combat rez I guess? I really haven't raided in a while because I forgot what to call it."

I did forget what to call it but the fact combat rez didn't sound familiar was tripping me up.

Battle rez.

- - - Updated - - -

I just went to read what they called in on the Ion interview summary in case that was the culprit but MMOC called it "battle resurrection". Too lazy to watch the full interview to hear what Ion himself called it.

Haha. And I'm exactly the other way around. I only know it as a CR.

[Nymrohd]

Maybe it'a an EU vs US region thing? I remember calling it CR (in Combat Resurrection vs out of Combat Resurrection) since I remember the ability existing but I have seen it called battle rez as well online.

[Ersula]

Except you're wrong and it has. Your "evidence" to the contrary on the other hand is meaningless, as the location on the chart doesn't actually mean anything. It's made to look pretty, not to clarify relationships.

It's literally called "the cosmology chart." Its as if you just said "Maps are just made to look pretty, not to clarify spatial relationships" if these things are allegedly settled in canon, post some published receipts.

[Nymrohd]

It's literally called "the cosmology chart." Its as if you just said "Maps are just made to look pretty, not to clarify spatial relationships" if these things are allegedly settled in canon, post some published receipts.

The Chronicle specifically calls out the difference between the Great Dark Beyond and the Twisting Nether in like the first ten pages. As huth said, you clearly don't know. Which is not a first.

[Raetary]

Chronicle vol. 1, p. 12

The Great Dark Beyond
The Great Dark Beyond represents the physical universe. It is an infinite living realm composed of innumerable stars, worlds, and mortal civilizations.
Azeroth - the world of Warcraft - is merely one of the countless worlds drifting through the vast reaches of the Great Dark Beyond.

The Twisting Nether
The Twisting Nether is an astral dimension that lies in parallel with the Great Dark Beyond. The forces of Light and Void bleed together at the boundaries of the Twisting Nether, engulfing this realm in perpetual strife. At times, the volatile magics that pervade the Twisting Nether intrude upon the physical universe, warping reality beyond measure.

Oh my, it seems like the 2 are established as 2 individual planes of reality.
Who'd have thought.

[Raetary]

Y'all do realize this can still be true about the Nether yet expanded upon yeah? I mean the true Nether is still kinda unknown outside of some glimpses of it.

They HAVE expanded upon the cosmology.
And all they did was just reaffirm the 6 forces - 6 planes - 6 Zereths division.

That is canon.
That's how canon works.
You can't disregard current canon just because the writers might change it in the future.
The Twisting Nether IS the plane of Disorder, just like the Shadowlands are the plane of Death.

[Raetary]

I am also aware that the Titans can also just not be fully aware of different realms and have limited perspectives of them as a result.

You keep repeating the perspective stick when it doesn't matter, what matters is the structure as established by the writers.
Which is incredibly clear cut and simple.

The intricacies of each individual plane are irrelevant, and not even what is being discussed.

[Nymrohd]

Yes, but the Chronicle also makes descriptions about the Dream and the Shadowlands, which feels vague and downright ignorant at best.

Especially when you consider that the Dream and the Shadowlands are not yin and yang realms. That's just the Dream and Ardenweald, and at best, the "Shadowlands" may just be in regards tk the Veil, as anything past it is almost never mentioned outside of Odyns peek into it, which costed him an eye in the process.

None of this changes the fact the these are separate and distinct realms. You can argue their origin may be evolved but they are distinct.

[Raetary]

What is the topic then?.

The topic is about whether or not the Twisting Nether is its own plane of existence or not.
Which Ersula considers not to be the case because they, once again, ignore established lore for their own weird headcanon takes.

[Lady Atia]

Again I point out how much of this is a matter of interpretation, as nothing of the sort has been concretely explained: The Twisting Nether and Disorder are not depicted anything like how Death & the Shadowlands are on the cosmology chart (the shadowlands & death regions are touching: the twisting nether isn't on the chart at all) As well as I don't think the canon has mentioned "the great dark beyond" for over a decade. Who's to say they aren't different in-universe cultures' names for the same thing.

That being said: Remember when I insisted it didn't make sense that there would be a Zereth for all 6 of the cosmic forces? We've gotten confirmation that I was wrong, but it still doesn't make any sense: If the Automa were creating the basis for all living things in Zereth Mortis, the question remains what the hell would they be doing in Zereth Vitae? That's the life one, then why is life being created at Zereth Mortis?

As much as I want to give Danuser some slack I don't think he likes thinking through any of these things.

The automa at Zereth Mortis were creating the afterlifes, not all living things. Zereth Vitae would prolly spawn stuff in the gardens of life, wild gods, etc., while for example Zereth Tumult would create new Daemons and new parts of the Twisting Nether, if they all have a similiar purpose. One could also argue that Mortis might be the oldest of the Zereths, as it makes sense that you would create the Afterlife first before mortal souls start to go there.