1. #66201
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    A Good War proves you wrong.
    As I said before, the War of Thorns did not go as planned due to Sylvanas' ulterior goals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Why did you not know this, Aucald? Did you not read A Good War? Why did you no read it?

    Regardless, as the above passage states, their strategy to defeat Stormwind was to cause the Alliance to fall apart from within and then pick off each individual kingdom, leaving Stormwind isolated and alone.
    That is basically what I was talking about, yes. Blunting the Alliance's ability to act, letting the Horde move with relative impunity and slowly bleed it out over time. But again, it's less about making the Alliance "fall apart" and more about preventing it from moving as one. If the Alliance couldn't strike as one without bringing harm to one of its protectorates and thus giving the appearance of either inaction or negligence, it would fracture them. And even if they didn't fracture, they still couldn't bring their full might to bear. Either way, according to Sylvanas and Saurfang's original strategy, the goal was a Horde victory through attrition. Whether weakened in number or weakened in might, a Stormwind handicapped wouldn't stand.

    As per A Good War with relevant emphasis:
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    “How would that happen? If we launch a sneak attack on the night elves’ home, the entire Alliance will seek vengeance.”

    At first, yes. They will be furious, united against our aggression,” she said. “But what will the night elves want more than anything? They will demand that the Alliance help retake their conquered home.”

    But the Alliance will not have the strength, not in Kalimdor, not with their fleets.

    Again. She had done it again. She had opened his mind to a new possibility, and the world shifted under his feet. The strategic implications spun out before him like the Maelstrom. “It will take years before they can even consider retaking Darnassus.

    “You understand, High Overlord,” Sylvanas said. “Think it through. What happens next?”

    “They might try to conquer the Undercity . . . but Darnassus becomes our hostage against that. The night elves will not allow your city to fall if they fear it means you will destroy theirs. The same goes for a strike against Silvermoon.” Saurfang’s thoughts raced. She’s right. This could work. (Source)
    Holding Teldrassil prevents the Alliance from moving forward unilaterally against the Horde, and they lack the naval power to directly take the fight to Teldrassil with the Horde in consolidated control of Kalimdor. Additionally, Sylvanas believes that if Anduin did indeed plan a strike on Kalimdor despite the Alliance's diminished navies, the Gilneans would be furious at Anduin's inaction in regard to their taken lands - but we know Sylvanas is wrong about that.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2022-08-21 at 08:44 PM.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  2. #66202
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    As I said before, the War of Thorns did not go as planned due to Sylvanas' ulterior goals.



    That is basically what I was talking about, yes. Blunting the Alliance's ability to act, letting the Horde move with relative impunity and slowly bleed it out over time. But again, it's less about making the Alliance "fall apart" and more about preventing it from moving as one. If the Alliance couldn't strike as one without bringing harm to one of its protectorates and thus giving the appearance of either inaction or negligence, it would fracture them. And even if they didn't fracture, they still couldn't bring their full might to bear. Either way, according to Sylvanas and Saurfang's original strategy, the goal was a Horde victory through attrition. Whether weakened in number or weakened in might, a Stormwind handicapped wouldn't stand.
    At least, that's what they believed to be the case. We never found out if they're right since Sylvanas derailed the plan and the following war turned rather poorly for the Horde. Though given what we saw from the Void Elves and the Horde's inability to hold Darkshore, it might not actually have worked all that well.

  3. #66203
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    At least, that's what they believed to be the case. We never found out if they're right since Sylvanas derailed the plan and the following war turned rather poorly for the Horde. Though given what we saw from the Void Elves and the Horde's inability to hold Darkshore, it might not actually have worked all that well.
    No, and it's an open question as to whether Sylvanas actually believed it or simply used that chain or logic to get Saurfang's buy-in for her true goal - a whole lot of death in a minimal timeframe, feeding the Jailer by sending everyone involved directly to the Maw. Sylvanas and Saurfang were also ultimately wrong about Greymane and Anduin, as well; and they didn't know about the Night Warrior to factor into their calculus, either.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  4. #66204
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    As I said before, the War of Thorns did not go as planned due to Sylvanas' ulterior goals.



    That is basically what I was talking about, yes. Blunting the Alliance's ability to act, letting the Horde move with relative impunity and slowly bleed it out over time. But again, it's less about making the Alliance "fall apart" and more about preventing it from moving as one. If the Alliance couldn't strike as one without bringing harm to one of its protectorates and thus giving the appearance of either inaction or negligence, it would fracture them. And even if they didn't fracture, they still couldn't bring their full might to bear. Either way, according to Sylvanas and Saurfang's original strategy, the goal was a Horde victory through attrition. Whether weakened in number or weakened in might, a Stormwind handicapped wouldn't stand.

    As per A Good War with relevant emphasis:
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    “How would that happen? If we launch a sneak attack on the night elves’ home, the entire Alliance will seek vengeance.”

    At first, yes. They will be furious, united against our aggression,” she said. “But what will the night elves want more than anything? They will demand that the Alliance help retake their conquered home.”

    But the Alliance will not have the strength, not in Kalimdor, not with their fleets.

    Again. She had done it again. She had opened his mind to a new possibility, and the world shifted under his feet. The strategic implications spun out before him like the Maelstrom. “It will take years before they can even consider retaking Darnassus.

    “You understand, High Overlord,” Sylvanas said. “Think it through. What happens next?”

    “They might try to conquer the Undercity . . . but Darnassus becomes our hostage against that. The night elves will not allow your city to fall if they fear it means you will destroy theirs. The same goes for a strike against Silvermoon.” Saurfang’s thoughts raced. She’s right. This could work. (Source)
    Holding Teldrassil prevents the Alliance from moving forward unilaterally against the Horde, and they lack the naval power to directly take the fight to Teldrassil with the Horde in consolidated control of Kalimdor. Additionally, Sylvanas believes that if Anduin did indeed plan a strike on Kalimdor despite the Alliance's diminished navies, the Gilneans would be furious at Anduin's inaction in regard to their taken lands - but we know Sylvanas is wrong about that.
    Literally what I'm saying.

    If the Alliance is united, then Night elves, Worgen, and the other races would come to the defense of Stormwind.

    If the Alliance falls apart, then no one would come to the defense of Stormwind. Just like during the First War, when the kingdom was isolated and alone.

    So, as I have been saying since morning (EU timezone), Stormwind cannot be taken if it is defended by a united Alliance, like the one that appears in-game. We have yet to see the Aliance fall apart, like the Horde did, and thus, as it stands now, Stormwind cannot fall.

    I never denied that the Kingdom of Stormwind individually, as a single nation would likely fall to a Horde invasion. But, in WoW, we see that the Kingdom of Stormwind is bolstered by an entire Alliance of like-minded races, ensuring its protection.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2022-08-21 at 09:29 PM.

  5. #66205
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    No, and it's an open question as to whether Sylvanas actually believed it or simply used that chain or logic to get Saurfang's buy-in for her true goal - a whole lot of death in a minimal timeframe, feeding the Jailer by sending everyone involved directly to the Maw. Sylvanas and Saurfang were also ultimately wrong about Greymane and Anduin, as well; and they didn't know about the Night Warrior to factor into their calculus, either.
    Heck perhaps her original plan DID involve an attack on Stormwind simply because its probably meant to be the densest population center in Warcraft (and thus getting a war there could score a lot of deaths for her).

  6. #66206
    The Insane Raetary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aydinx2 View Post
    Excitement for DF is literally 0 now that they keep updating Hunters and we get 0 news about Priests.
    Priests are gonna need to get the most insane changes ever for me to care again about the game.
    The dev responsible for both priests and druid apparently left the company, so we are stuck with what we got rn.

    i worry about holy, the spec finally got to shine this expansion and now we are probably stuck again healing at snails pace like before.


    Formerly known as Arafal

  7. #66207
    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    The dev responsible for both priests and druid apparently left the company, so we are stuck with what we got rn.

    i worry about holy, the spec finally got to shine this expansion and now we are probably stuck again healing at snails pace like before.
    I do want to see how much dps I can do with the current tree though. Like, there is a full on Holy dps spec there.

  8. #66208
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    The dev responsible for both priests and druid apparently left the company, so we are stuck with what we got rn.

    i worry about holy, the spec finally got to shine this expansion and now we are probably stuck again healing at snails pace like before.
    How do we know that?
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2022-08-21 at 09:45 PM.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  9. #66209
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    How do we know that?
    Probably not as bad as the person he is quoting is saying it is.
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance #TeamNoBlueHorde

    Warrior-Magi

  10. #66210
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Probably not as bad as the person he is quoting is saying it is.
    Because a class dev suddenly leaving during most crucial expansion cycle moment combined with massive talent overhaul is strange.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  11. #66211
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I doubt Legendaries will be deactivated. Seems more likely they will change them to have a max level, and also changed to generic "increase damage by X%" effects where applicable.
    You will also seemingly keep your covenant abilities going by how Dracthyr got some generic ones. They even get a Unity effect, so we know that at least that one will still work.
    Their covenant abilities and unity are generic enough to probably be used by all classes

    Legendaries getting changed to generic bonuses definitely makes sense and will likely get replaced by regular gear from s4

    I'm gonna start getting all my consumables ready
    Potions
    Flasks
    Speed tertiary stat gear
    The permanent rune maybe?? I have like 200
    Health potions
    Speed potions

    Idk if it's like SL where it forced you to finish a campaign or not

  12. #66212
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Literally what I'm saying.

    If the Alliance is united, then Night elves, Worgen, and the other races would come to the defense of Stormwind.

    If the Alliance falls apart, then no one would come to the defense of Stormwind. Just like during the First War, when the kingdom was isolated and alone.

    So, as I have been saying since morning (EU timezone), Stormwind cannot be taken if it is defended by a united Alliance, like the one that appears in-game. We have yet to see the Aliance fall apart, like the Horde did, and thus, as it stands now, Stormwind cannot fall.

    I never denied that the Kingdom of Stormwind individually, as a single nation would likely fall to a Horde invasion. But, in WoW, we see that the Kingdom of Stormwind is bolstered by an entire Alliance of like-minded races, ensuring its protection.
    Not really what you were saying before, no.

    The stratagem was to ensure Stormwind couldn't bring its full might to bear, specifically due to a lack of naval forces since Kalimdor would be fully secured by the Horde. And if Stormwind tried to fight on another front, say Gilneas, Lordaeron, or Silvermoon then the Horde would bleed the Kaldorei in response, blunting any forward momentum the Alliance might have as Tyrande and her allies wouldn't permit the innocents in Teldrassil to be harmed on their account. Additionally, Sylvanas thought Greymane might also abandon the Alliance if Anduin responded too rashly, as no one came directly to Gilneas' defense when the Forsaken attacked them (despite them having left the Alliance at the time) - a position we know she was mistaken in believing, regardless.

    Like Sylvanas directly says, the Alliance would be united, to begin with, but they'd have nowhere to direct their energies due to Horde holding Teldrassil as its hostage. Eventually, their unity would indeed crumble as either inaction or attrition forced their hand, and in seeing their High King stymied Sylvanas thought (probably correctly) that the other Alliance leaders would see to their homelands' own security, leaving the Alliance again unable to fully muster itself if the Horde were to attack on a different front.

    All of the above is predicated on the state of both the Alliance and Horde post-Legion, though; with both their navies in tatters and unable to coordinate a swift movement of troops should the need arise. This context has changed post-BfA and now post-Shadowlands, and with the time-skip added to Dragonflight we have no real way of knowing what Stormwind or Ogrimmar's relative strength is now that they've had time to restock and repair their navies and armies. The calculus of Sylvanas' Before the Storm stratagem is entirely different now, and even though the Horde and Alliance are currently in a state of armistice, we don't know which superpower has military superiority, or if they remain at a rough statement and detente.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Heck perhaps her original plan DID involve an attack on Stormwind simply because its probably meant to be the densest population center in Warcraft (and thus getting a war there could score a lot of deaths for her).
    She certainly had Stormwind in her sights starting out, that much is for certain. Despite her talking about patience and attrition, her conversations with Nathanos definitely made Stormwind sound like the jewel of her end goals.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  13. #66213
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    Her merit was to write a book about Arthas, that is it. I understand that a lot of writers want to seize these opportunities but If blizzard could do better screenings when choosing their contractors-partners, everyone would win in it. And the chances of players picking up a book from the game's universe would be higher and they wouldn't say they feel forced reading it when it is an enjoyable experience.
    Golden wrote Lord of the Clans and rise of the horde she's been a pretty core contributor to Warcraft's story before wow even came out and has had a hand in writing some of the most fundament parts of wow, if she wouldn't pass screenings for contractor partner/worker literally no writer would.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  14. #66214
    Quote Originally Posted by Aydinx2 View Post
    Excitement for DF is literally 0 now that they keep updating Hunters and we get 0 news about Priests.
    Priests are gonna need to get the most insane changes ever for me to care again about the game.
    The priest devs is on break
    I think they get back Monday

  15. #66215
    Bloodsail Admiral DrIvoRobotnik's Avatar
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    Hey, I don't mean this as a dig, but are people excited for this expansion? Everyone from forums and streamers seem to be pretty ho-hum whether it's negative or positive. I keep looking around for the hype or rage, but the largest controversy I've seen is something about Ret pallys upset about losing a few inches on their arms and them making the Soar racial useless.

  16. #66216
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    A Good War proves you wrong.



    Why did you not know this, Aucald? Did you not read A Good War? Why did you no read it?

    Regardless, as the above passage states, their strategy to defeat Stormwind was to cause the Alliance to fall apart from within and then pick off each individual kingdom, leaving Stormwind isolated and alone.
    It is you who did not read it.

    That is what the PLAN was
    but that is not what would happen, because sylvanas does not understand the alliance, she saw something like that as something that would fracture the alliance, when really it strengthened it.

    Sylvanas's plan was to take teldrassil and the alliance would fracture, especially since the gilneans would obviously still wish to focus on taking back gilneas.

    but aucald is right, that is not what happened, the gilneans promised to help the night elves reclaim their land, and this strengthened them.
    The plan was not reality
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

  17. #66217
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Golden wrote Lord of the Clans and rise of the horde she's been a pretty core contributor to Warcraft's story before wow even came out and has had a hand in writing some of the most fundament parts of wow, if she wouldn't pass screenings for contractor partner/worker literally no writer would.
    you could make the same argument for Metzen. He's ptobably a good game director and narrative lead but his novel writing skills aren't so much. It's not a question of how long you've contributed that should define if you can write novels for the franchise

  18. #66218
    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    you could make the same argument for Metzen. He's ptobably a good game director and narrative lead but his novel writing skills aren't so much. It's not a question of how long you've contributed that should define if you can write novels for the franchise
    I know in D&D novels, many game devs who had no writing credits outside D&D rule and campaign books have written multiple novels. Some of them are imo hopeless as writers (Ed Greenwood, creator of Forgotten Realms; he can write an amazing book on world building but give him a story to follow in a novel and the result could be used to put manic people to sleep). When you are in a company that has the capacity to publish and you are sufficiently high ranking, getting a book does not seem that unlikely and for many people seeing their name on a published book is a lifelong dream so they will push for it to happen.

    Warcraft did not really do that. Maybe Metzen got something out but I think that's it. Danuser so far just has short stories.

    I mention D&D intentionally because both Knaak and Golden were noticed by Blizzard from their work in D&D franchise books (Knaak wrote some mediocre Dragonlance books, Golden some decent Ravenloft books). Golden is decently prolific but almost entirely writing within settings set by others; Knaak has some of his own work. I'd say of the writers we've seen in Warcraft Roux is the one who has extensively written in her own worlds instead of being a paid writer to just get a story a company needs published written (at the same time I think she is not a good fit at all with Warcraft).

    Personally I disilike the concept at large. I've read my share of companion novels meant to tell the story of a game, be it a video game, a game into movie adaptation into novel or even a TCG (Magic the Gathering comes with scores of horrible novels that I have inflicted upon myself). Your chances of finding a decent book in that pile are about the same as winning a lottery. They are just ready stories handed to professional writers who need a paycheck (likely cause they cannot get their own work to sell well enough or cannot get it published). Some of these writers are even good (again I don't consider Golden or Roux a poor writer; Knaak I do). But the entire concept is a cash grab for super fans of different franchises and nothing more than that.

    That said, I am not saying the job should be done completely in game. I absolutely agree that it's better to have a wedding in a short story (it could be done in game and be hilarious though but WoW is more likely to do toilet humor than proper camp). If they need to provide additional details on something, a short story is better. If something CAN be content, it should be in game though. Garrosh' trial could have been a scenario (we could have been sent to check on Anduin, fight some mobs like Left and Right then go upstairs and help fight the faction leader AU counterparts, getting to see Zaela rescuing Garrosh in the end; all the assets for this were available; it could even have been a mini raid!). The meeting at Arathi could have been a questline were we could get to know the families about to be reunited with Alliance seeing Calia rez'd while the Horde being pulled in Sylvanas' inner circle and seeding the loyalist/rebel questline right there. Again all assets were available. And Stormrage plus the Me'dan comic could have been an entire expansion (Emerald Nightmare raid, Ahn'qiraj raid were Cho'gall escapes? Pacify Goldshire dungeon???)

  19. #66219
    The Insane Raetary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Probably not as bad as the person he is quoting is saying it is.
    God forbid i worry about the capabilities of my main class since mop, which hasn't received any updates for a whole month now.


    Formerly known as Arafal

  20. #66220
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    God forbid i worry about the capabilities of my main class since mop, which hasn't received any updates for a whole month now.
    So again, why do we think the dev left? Just because of no updates?

    Because now we got this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Man View Post
    The priest devs is on break
    I think they get back Monday
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

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