Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Darkarath]

I hate seeing posts like this, because ultimately I think that Shadowlands is terrible, but it has to be said that it doesn't make death meaningless.
An afterlife has ALWAYS been around in WoW. It's also always been something people can interact with.

That we get some very basic insight into core realms does not change that. Death and the Shadowlands does not change how resurrection works in most cases. It doesn't change how people interact with spirits and talking with them in most cases.

There has always been an afterlife in WoW. This is explicit and always has been. That we see part of it does not invalidate death.

If the rift between ICC and Shadowlands has been repaired, and travel is now extremely difficult, it's just back to what has always existed in WoW lore.

There is an afterlive in probably every fantasy universe that usually is not meddled too much with because potentially you can do enormous damage to your lore. Shadowlands is a perfect example of that.

Basic insight into core realms? If someone close to us die we just have to talk to our pal Pelagos and ask him to point us in which direction we have to go to take a nice cup of tea with our friend who died yesterday.

Travel to the Shadowlands is, according to the last time that Danuser spoke about it, extremely easy, we just have to cross a portal. I think that he even mentioned as an example a baker visiting his lost ones.

Death is meaningless in WoW until Shadowlands is properly dealt with. Again, we can just go there, grab our pal, and bring him back to the realms of life. Is just that easy. The possibility is there, and if Pelagos do not allow it we only have to use brute force to achieve our objective. One would have expected more mistery or more difficulties, but no, just with brute force, we can bring anyone, probably with his body an all, not an ethereal shape of what he / she was.

Its pathetic.

[Raetary]

If the rift between ICC and Shadowlands has been repaired, and travel is now extremely difficult,

This isn't true, it never even was with how travel has been established.
We just didn't know it was a place we can get to in the first place.

The Brokers, Necros, Kyrians, etc. travel between the Veil without a single problem and we have established portal links directly to Oribos in our capitals.

That we get some very basic insight into core realms does not change that

Very basic insight.
You call learning everything there is to know about them, joining them and climbing their ranks to become one of the highest ranking members of their covenants "very basic insight"?

Hell, we are even buddy-buddy with the Arbiter.
We HELPED him become the Arbiter in the first place.

[Makabreska]

Ion kinda confirming we will have more classes added in the future:

"This is something we talk about a lot. Evoker not having a tank spec, I think, is more a reflection on the fantasy of what being a draconic being is and how you would expect it to act. A breath weapon and wings and mobility and all that felt like it lent itself more to a ranged-based class, a caster. And caster abilities don’t always work well with tanking, so we didn’t go in that direction with that fantasy. Future classes may have tank specs."

[Nyel]

You should keep your info updated. The top two guilds in Sepulcher used two holy priests. MW was also used. The healer neither of the top two guilds used was Resto shaman. Also if you just take 30 seconds to look at the healer leaderboards for mythic+ it is mostly holy priests at the top. Your post is like a time capsule from Sanctum days a year ago that somehow just got slowly posted now.

Your statement makes not much sense as your and my time frames are entirely different. You look at the recent tier when I am speaking of a 10 year span since Monks have been introduced. Yes, there were / are a few tiers were Monks and even Holy Priests are "top tier", but again, that's not the point I made. Who cares about Sepulcher parsings in 4-5 months? Nobody. That's why they really don't matter here. It doesn't matter though, let's just pretend Monks don't exist and nobody would care anyway.

[Makabreska]

Your statement makes not much sense as your and my time frames are entirely different. You look at the recent tier when I am speaking of a 10 year span since Monks have been introduced. Yes, there were / are a few tiers were Monks and even Holy Priests are "top tier", but again, that's not the point I made. Who cares about Sepulcher parsings in 4-5 months? Nobody. That's why they really don't matter here. It doesn't matter though, let's just pretend Monks don't exist and nobody would care anyway.

Uhhhhh, what is it even this logic? MW/HolyP do not matter now, because they didn't matter enough in the past, while being actually good in CURRENT content? You judge entire spec performance with how good and relevant they were in the past, not the present? Again, what is this logic? I remind you this is a conversation, which spec should get CR, based on it's current/DF utility.

[Nyel]

Uhhhhh, what is it even this logic? MW/HolyP do not matter now, because they didn't matter enough in the past, while being actually good in CURRENT content? You judge entire spec performance with how good and relevant they were in the past, not the present? Again, what is this logic?

This logic is the same you applied in your statement above that Ion is confirming future classes (when future classes were never in doubt anyway).

On a serious note: there is a reason why Monks are by far the least played class. What do you think is it? That players just don't like how they play? Or that they, for the most time since their introduction, were a class that was neither mandatory nor generally strong enough to attract enough players to be at least as popular as the second least popular class? If you'd remove Monks from the game right now, nobody would complain, because the general audience doesn't even recognize the class. Bold statement, I know.

[Makabreska]

This logic is the same you applied in your statement above that Ion is confirming future classes.

The one where the lead dev says future classes may have tank specs, low key confirming new classes in the future? Eh, no. You are extremely confused right now and your logic is totally backwards. Address please why you judge spec based on it's past performance, while disregarding the present.

[Lady Atia]

This logic is the same you applied in your statement above that Ion is confirming future classes (when future classes were never in doubt anyway).

On a serious note: there is a reason why Monks are by far the least played class. What do you think is it? That players just don't like how they play? Or that they, for the most time since their introduction, were a class that was neither mandatory nor generally strong enough to attract enough players to be at least as popular as the second least popular class? If you'd remove Monks from the game right now, nobody would complain, because the general audience doesn't even recognize the class. Bold statement, I know.

You take that back! Monk got by far the best looking tier set with Sepulcher. And I would miss my little alt

[unfunnymeme]

This logic is the same you applied in your statement above that Ion is confirming future classes (when future classes were never in doubt anyway).

On a serious note: there is a reason why Monks are by far the least played class. What do you think is it? That players just don't like how they play? Or that they, for the most time since their introduction, were a class that was neither mandatory nor generally strong enough to attract enough players to be at least as popular as the second least popular class? If you'd remove Monks from the game right now, nobody would complain, because the general audience doesn't even recognize the class. Bold statement, I know.

I would absolutely say it's because most people just don't like the theme and style of the class.
Being a karate guy just doesn't appeal to most people. The class is also entirely shrouded in Pandaren aesthetic and culture. Maybe if they made it a little more racially neutral, it'd attract more people.

[Nyel]

You take that back! Monk got by far the best looking tier set with Sepulcher. And I would miss my little alt

Oh I love Monks since the day they were introduced, I've always loved Mistweaver and the "mist" aesthetic. Unfortunately the class had so many down phases and so little love put into it that it's just as unpopular as it was back during MoP when it got introduced to the game. Monk is most likely my diehard favorite class, it just makes me sad to see it's waning.

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I would absolutely say it's because most people just don't like the theme and style of the class.
Being a karate guy just doesn't appeal to most people. The class is also entirely shrouded in Pandaren aesthetic and culture. Maybe if they made it a little more racially neutral, it'd attract more people.

Or just make it... special? Don't know. 10 years and Blizzard has failed to deliver anything in that regard. Monk will always be seen as a step child class that really never was meant to be part of the game if MoP did not happen.

[Lady Atia]

I would absolutely say it's because most people just don't like the theme and style of the class.
Being a karate guy just doesn't appeal to most people. The class is also entirely shrouded in Pandaren aesthetic and culture. Maybe if they made it a little more racially neutral, it'd attract more people.

Monk aren't Pandaren themed only - you can easily blend them into Draenei, Humans, Orcs (to represent blademasters), Dwarfes (Brewmasters!) and Forsaken.

[Darkarath]

"And bring him back to the Realms of Life"

The Dark Beyond is not the Plane of Life. Are we going to ignore the established lore in SL now? Is this gonna be a common thing? Cause I'll fact check y'all hard.

Oh c'mon, you get what I mean. To Azeroth, bring him back to Azeroth, so he can live again.

[Khaza-R]

You take that back! Monk got by far the best looking tier set with Sepulcher. And I would miss my little alt

If only they would explore those distinctions in game I think I would like the class better. But for the most part the only non-Panderan monks in the game were the ones in SM. Everyone else is basically an adherent to Panderan teachings.

[huth]

Oh c'mon, you get what I mean. To Azeroth, bring him back to Azeroth, so he can live again.

You didn't pay a whole lot of attention in Shadowlands, did you? It's not that easy. Recently dead souls can't really do much, even if you somehow get them to the mortal plane.

And that it is easy for the living to go to the Shadowlands doesn't automatically mean the dead can just as easily leave.

[Raetary]

And that it is easy for the living to go to the Shadowlands doesn't automatically mean the dead can just as easily leave.

There is not a single established piece of lore, that in any way shape or form states that souls have any limitation as to whether or not they can leave if they have the telemantic means to it.
In fact, the whole expansion establishes the exact opposite.

Literally every covenant has a private means of leaving and entering and traversing the Shadowlands.
Drakas Afterlive short has her spy on a legion world.
Brokers just go on casual treasure hunting trips whenever they feel like it.
We have ourselves opened portals to our very own capitals the very minute we entered Oribos.

When someone dies, there is absolutely nothing stopping us or anyone else to just ask Pelagos for directions and then drag them out of there.
There is nothing stopping a soul from just saving up a bunch of anima and paying their nearest Broker to port them back to their planet.

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That too. You're also bound to that realm no?

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There's a reason why the Ysera stuff requires "great sacrifice"

You are not.
Ysera is not an example either.

Ysera is the only soul that had any sort of bond to their designated realm, a bond only created because her pod was damaged and the Winter Queen had to push the emergency button.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Oh I love Monks since the day they were introduced, I've always loved Mistweaver and the "mist" aesthetic. Unfortunately the class had so many down phases and so little love put into it that it's just as unpopular as it was back during MoP when it got introduced to the game. Monk is most likely my diehard favorite class, it just makes me sad to see it's waning.

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Or just make it... special? Don't know. 10 years and Blizzard has failed to deliver anything in that regard. Monk will always be seen as a step child class that really never was meant to be part of the game if MoP did not happen.

What statistics are you referring to? WW Monks are currently in the middle of total normal/heroic/mythic parses for CN (the only raid that has been up twice so far). WW and BM are among the most popular m+ specs (looking at parse numbers) and the subcreation historical graph shows that WW and BM monks are among the best consistent m+ classes in the game for 6 years running.

Unless you are specifically talking about MW only, then yeah, it's the worst healing spec no doubt Monks kind of have the opposite problem of paladin, whose DPS spec is usually bad but whose healing spec is nearly always considered part of the core raiding healer trinity because aura mastery is so powerful.

[Nyel]

What statistics are you referring to? WW Monks are currently in the middle of total normal/heroic/mythic parses for CN (the only raid that has been up twice so far). WW and BM are among the most popular m+ specs (looking at parse numbers) and the subcreation historical graph shows that WW and BM monks are among the best consistent m+ classes in the game for 6 years running.

Unless you are specifically talking about MW only, then yeah, it's the worst healing spec no doubt Monks kind of have the opposite problem of paladin, whose DPS spec is usually bad but whose healing spec is nearly always considered part of the core raiding healer trinity because aura mastery is so powerful.

Yeah, mostly talking through the Mistweaver lense as that's my main Monk spec and the one I'm playing 95% of the time in any type of content.

[Darkarath]

There is not a single established piece of lore, that in any way shape or form states that souls have any limitation as to whether or not they can leave if they have the telemantic means to it.
In fact, the whole expansion establishes the exact opposite.

Literally every covenant has a private means of leaving and entering and traversing the Shadowlands.
Drakas Afterlive short has her spy on a legion world.
Brokers just go on casual treasure hunting trips whenever they feel like it.
We have ourselves opened portals to our very own capitals the very minute we entered Oribos.

When someone dies, there is absolutely nothing stopping us or anyone else to just ask Pelagos for directions and then drag them out of there.
There is nothing stopping a soul from just saving up a bunch of anima and paying their nearest Broker to port them back to their planet.

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You are not.
Ysera is not an example either.

Ysera is the only soul that had any sort of bond to their designated realm, a bond only created because her pod was damaged and the Winter Queen had to push the emergency button.

Could not have answered better myself. Thanks, Arafal.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

That's...true. shiet my bad

Regardless, I would imagine their souls are still bound to the Realms of Death regardless.

Brokers aren't necessarily dead mortals or anything like that though. Draka being in a military organization would have special priveleges compared to anyone else and such. The fact we won't see so many formerly alive individuals tells you that in some way you can't just walk back to the living.

[huth]

There is not a single established piece of lore, that in any way shape or form states that souls have any limitation as to whether or not they can leave if they have the telemantic means to it.
In fact, the whole expansion establishes the exact opposite.

Literally every covenant has a private means of leaving and entering and traversing the Shadowlands.
Drakas Afterlive short has her spy on a legion world.

Hold it. Yes, of the four major Covenants that we saw, two do have means to leave and enter the Shadowlands... because that's a required feature for them to do their job. It also isn't available to every member. Neither the Venthyr nor Nightfae are shown to have this capability, however. We don't know what it is like for lesser Covenants, either.
It also isn't available to every member. Only ascended Kyrians can do so, and it doesn't seem like rank and file Maldraxxians may just leave whenever they feel like it.

Similarly, i'm not getting the sense that every Broker can just randomly open portals wherever, nor do they seem to be particularly willing to share that particular advantage freely.

And none of this applies to the souls of the recently dead who haven't yet achieved any meaningful standing in their Covenant. The ones that can leave are not technically mortal souls anymore, or, like in the case of the Brokers, may well never have been.