1. #66241
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Yes, it's what I said.

    What you wrote after is just a long and convoluted version of "Stormwind with the full Alliance backing can't be taken so Sylvanas needed to make the Alliance fall first".
    If by "long and convoluted" you mean accurate and with the appropriate attention to detail, then yes. Sylvanas' strategy outlined in A Good War wouldn't necessarily make the Alliance fall, it would simply prevent it from functioning correctly and was reliant on the status quo post-Legion to function. Those are significant details that shouldn't be omitted, otherwise, it gives the wrong impression of both the Horde's and the Alliance's respective military might.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    The Horde will never be the faction with the advantage since they are the "underdog" faction. It was like that in Vanilla, it was like that in post-MoP, and it will be like that again in the future.

    That's why the Horde always resorts to backstabbing the Alliance and nuking them.
    That's an appeal to tradition fallacy - just because the Horde has always been the underdog doesn't require or even imply that it will remain so. The same is true of the Alliance being a passive entity that only responds to attacks and is seldom proactive.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  2. #66242
    Dreadlord Berkilak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    That's an appeal to tradition fallacy
    I don't necessarily disagree... but is this truly a fallacy with Blizzard? They do tend to make quite a few decisions backed by tradition alone.

  3. #66243
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkilak View Post
    I don't necessarily disagree... but is this truly a fallacy with Blizzard? They do tend to make quite a few decisions backed by tradition alone.
    I think it would be fine to crouch such a statement in likelihood - to say it's likely the Horde will always be the underdog, but I'd say it's wrongheaded to telescope that into the assumption it will always be the case and assume superiority due to it. Doubly so in light that the Horde has recently radically restructured itself in light of the Fourth War, and we now have a lengthy time-skip in which the status quo of the Horde could've been quite altered. We also assumed the Horde would be led by an autocrat in the form of a Warchief, as it has always been, but that too didn't end up being the case, either.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  4. #66244
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    If by "long and convoluted" you mean accurate and with the appropriate attention to detail, then yes. Sylvanas' strategy outlined in A Good War wouldn't necessarily make the Alliance fall, it would simply prevent it from functioning correctly and was reliant on the status quo post-Legion to function. Those are significant details that shouldn't be omitted, otherwise, it gives the wrong impression of both the Horde's and the Alliance's respective military might.



    That's an appeal to tradition fallacy - just because the Horde has always been the underdog doesn't require or even imply that it will remain so. The same is true of the Alliance being a passive entity that only responds to attacks and is seldom proactive.
    Yes, Yes, thanks for the geopolitical dissertation on Warchief Sylvanas I Windrunner's war strategy. Much appreciated.

  5. #66245
    Quote Originally Posted by Berkilak View Post
    I don't necessarily disagree... but is this truly a fallacy with Blizzard? They do tend to make quite a few decisions backed by tradition alone.
    Do we know what patch happen tomorrow?

  6. #66246
    Quote Originally Posted by DrIvoRobotnik View Post
    Hey, I don't mean this as a dig, but are people excited for this expansion? Everyone from forums and streamers seem to be pretty ho-hum whether it's negative or positive. I keep looking around for the hype or rage, but the largest controversy I've seen is something about Ret pallys upset about losing a few inches on their arms and them making the Soar racial useless.
    It doesn't have any controversy as you mentioned, nothing like the azerite or covenant power stuff.
    I guess people are skeptical, yet excited.

  7. #66247
    What's missing from Alpha currently beside DHs? All dungeons & professions are in? I see they already test max level world content, so Beta can't be far off. Maybe even PTR, SL PTR was 2 months before pre-patch - and it was intended, cause pre-patch release wasn't affected by delay.

  8. #66248
    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    So like the Scourge invasions of SL and Wrath. My point still stands, the average Azerothian doesn't experience too many things unless they are really big like the scourge or the burning legion. Or Deathwing.
    I'd strongly disagree.

    Wrath had its scourge invasion as well as plague event.

    Cata, the very next expansion, had deathwing and elementals

    MoP had garrosh trying to conquer the world and splitting the horde. Maybe the average horde person experienced this more than the alliance.

    WoD is a lucky hiatus (lol greatest threat ever promotions)

    Legion had demon invasion

    BFA was effectively a world war where capitols were raised, and an old god was on the loose corrupting various parts of the world. There was also the side effects of the sword and azerite.

    SL had the scourge invasions again.

    Since Wrath the only real peace time the average joe has had was in WoD.

  9. #66249
    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    Since Wrath the only real peace time the average joe has had was in WoD.
    Except the poor bastards stationed in the blasted lands prior to the portal reopening.

  10. #66250
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    What's missing from Alpha currently beside DHs? All dungeons & professions are in? I see they already test max level world content, so Beta can't be far off. Maybe even PTR, SL PTR was 2 months before pre-patch - and it was intended, cause pre-patch release wasn't affected by delay.
    DH talents, two dungeons: Halls of Infusion with Taz'algeth Academy and a raid, of the top of my head.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  11. #66251
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    DH talents, two dungeons: Halls of Infusion with Taz'algeth Academy and a raid, of the top of my head.
    So maybe 2 dungeons and DH this week to conclude Alpha. I expect raid and M+ testing in Beta anyway.

  12. #66252
    Quote Originally Posted by Manu9 View Post
    Blizzard's history makes this very worrying, we used to say this and go without any changes for full expansions, that's not acceptable.
    I mean his excuse is being told each and every expansion, just in different variations. "It's just alpha, it's just beta, the expansion has barely started..." bla.

    It's concerning how much official feedback a few select classes (Hunter *wink wink*) get while other classes are completely ignored. It looks really bad for their communication, too, because they have to realize how negative of a picture it paints when their Hunter devs are constantly talking about changes on a weekly basis (or even more often) and other devs have not lost one word about a specific class. It's communication mismanagement. Either have something to tell about every class or nothing. At least you should not have weekly update posts for one single class because it makes all the other devs look lazy or all the other classes like being neglected / ignored.

    It would be way better if they just had weekly update posts for every class. Some could be longer than others, but every class should get a weekly update.
    Last edited by Nyel; 2022-08-22 at 01:26 PM.
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  13. #66253
    Quote Originally Posted by Gurkan View Post
    Except the poor bastards stationed in the blasted lands prior to the portal reopening.
    Well yes. But one zone thats entirely a military based in the middle of a barren wasteland being destroyed isnt something the average populace would experience.

    The Alliance running out of forces and needing to bring in conscripts in BFA is.

  14. #66254
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    you could make the same argument for Metzen. He's ptobably a good game director and narrative lead but his novel writing skills aren't so much. It's not a question of how long you've contributed that should define if you can write novels for the franchise
    Golden and metzen aren’t in the same league metzen was a world builder who knew novels weren’t his thing so he and golden worked Rise/lords which were good novels and set the foundations for a lot of wow.

    You could argue that Mabye she’s gotten worse without Metzen to work with but she’s absolutely qualified to write wow novels.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  15. #66255
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I know in D&D novels, many game devs who had no writing credits outside D&D rule and campaign books have written multiple novels. Some of them are imo hopeless as writers (Ed Greenwood, creator of Forgotten Realms; he can write an amazing book on world building but give him a story to follow in a novel and the result could be used to put manic people to sleep). When you are in a company that has the capacity to publish and you are sufficiently high ranking, getting a book does not seem that unlikely and for many people seeing their name on a published book is a lifelong dream so they will push for it to happen.

    Warcraft did not really do that. Maybe Metzen got something out but I think that's it. Danuser so far just has short stories.

    I mention D&D intentionally because both Knaak and Golden were noticed by Blizzard from their work in D&D franchise books (Knaak wrote some mediocre Dragonlance books, Golden some decent Ravenloft books). Golden is decently prolific but almost entirely writing within settings set by others; Knaak has some of his own work. I'd say of the writers we've seen in Warcraft Roux is the one who has extensively written in her own worlds instead of being a paid writer to just get a story a company needs published written (at the same time I think she is not a good fit at all with Warcraft).

    Personally I disilike the concept at large. I've read my share of companion novels meant to tell the story of a game, be it a video game, a game into movie adaptation into novel or even a TCG (Magic the Gathering comes with scores of horrible novels that I have inflicted upon myself). Your chances of finding a decent book in that pile are about the same as winning a lottery. They are just ready stories handed to professional writers who need a paycheck (likely cause they cannot get their own work to sell well enough or cannot get it published). Some of these writers are even good (again I don't consider Golden or Roux a poor writer; Knaak I do). But the entire concept is a cash grab for super fans of different franchises and nothing more than that.

    That said, I am not saying the job should be done completely in game. I absolutely agree that it's better to have a wedding in a short story (it could be done in game and be hilarious though but WoW is more likely to do toilet humor than proper camp). If they need to provide additional details on something, a short story is better. If something CAN be content, it should be in game though. Garrosh' trial could have been a scenario (we could have been sent to check on Anduin, fight some mobs like Left and Right then go upstairs and help fight the faction leader AU counterparts, getting to see Zaela rescuing Garrosh in the end; all the assets for this were available; it could even have been a mini raid!). The meeting at Arathi could have been a questline were we could get to know the families about to be reunited with Alliance seeing Calia rez'd while the Horde being pulled in Sylvanas' inner circle and seeding the loyalist/rebel questline right there. Again all assets were available. And Stormrage plus the Me'dan comic could have been an entire expansion (Emerald Nightmare raid, Ahn'qiraj raid were Cho'gall escapes? Pacify Goldshire dungeon???)
    At least your post was a good read. Even if I'm in the opposite boat concerning knaak. I've liked shadow rising even if the whole alliance story was slow and uninteresting for the most part. I would be very happy to see more short stories published that could explore a bit more some current expansion side stories that won't get explored more in the game like you've described with the wedding.

    Let's see where it goes

  16. #66256
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Golden and metzen aren’t in the same league metzen was a world builder who knew novels weren’t his thing so he and golden worked Rise/lords which were good novels and set the foundations for a lot of wow.

    You could argue that Mabye she’s gotten worse without Metzen to work with but she’s absolutely qualified to write wow novels.
    People should really check Golden's bibliography. She has been trusted to write for a large number of franchises. She is very much a professional.

  17. #66257
    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    Or, maybe, Blizzard has a hard time coming up with relatively original narratives so they just stick to the themes that are popular.
    True, but there's also a thing as being too safe ya know?

    For example, I think the Ysera stuff is a bit...safe lol

  18. #66258
    The Insane Raetary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    True, but there's also a thing as being too safe ya know?

    For example, I think the Ysera stuff is a bit...safe lol
    Yes, i know, i was not defending them in that post.


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  19. #66259
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Big mage changes announced, one of the more harsher received class on ptr:

    https://www.wowhead.com/news/upcomin...nflight-328465
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  20. #66260
    Bloodsail Admiral Darkarath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    People should really check Golden's bibliography. She has been trusted to write for a large number of franchises. She is very much a professional.
    I have to say that I have enjoyed Golden's Warcraft books, cannot comment on the rest of her work, as I have not read a single thing. Knaak was plainly bad IMO, others like William King, Stackpole and Roux were okay.

    What worries me is that Golden has been working with Danuser for some years now (2017 I believe), and since that moment BfA and Shadowlands happened. The worst expansions story and narrative wise by far, especially Shadowlands, which is an atrocity against Warcraft's lore.

    So far DF seems interesting but I really hope that they do a good job story-wise, another mess and they will have to be fired immediately IMO.
    Do not take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive.


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