Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[huth]

As far as we've seen, the Twisting Nether IS what characters in this setting understand space to be. Whenever someone leaves a planet in canon they're described as "going to the twisting nether," traveling "through the twisting nether" might as well be traveling at warp speed, etc.

Not saying this is the correct interpretation but they have been deliberately vague about it over the years. Especially when out of habit its taken them a decade to establish crucial information like a set timeline.

Because they typically use portals, not spaceships, and Legion ships do use the Twisting Nether as a sort of Warp (á la Warhammer 40k, not Star Trek).

The Twisting Nether is very clearly distinct from the Great Dark, which behaves mostly like our space. Which means it is effing big and mostly empty, among other things.

Nobody in-universe is confused as to what the difference between the two is. Only you because you didn't pay attention.

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Mistweaver is easily replaceable, brings nothing special to the raid and they're not a mandatory healer (which I was referring to when I exaggerated "not mandatory" with the phrase mostly useless).

That's not an exaggeration, that's a completely different statement. There's a rather big gulf between "not strictly necessary" and "do not bring under most circumstances".

[Revamp Man]

The class is mostly useless and is never considered a mandatory part of a raid <- that's what I said

Mistweaver is easily replaceable, brings nothing special to the raid and they're not a mandatory healer (which I was referring to when I exaggerated "not mandatory" with the phrase mostly useless).

There are some healing specs that are mandatory and are present in basically each and every raid encounter. And then there are healing specs that are not. Mistweaver is one of the latter - and that's my point. But Nymrohd is right, a Monk BR wouldn't change this in a raid anyway.

Monks are the mom healers
If an orb hit halondrus or you miss an interrupt on council they have the mass dispel.
They make the first anduin shield disappear in literal seconds
They provide the physical damage debuff when you don't have the other specs

A res on a monk would serve the same purpose as it will on a pally but Monks are the least played class so it serves more to go to paladin and makes sense because of the past.

[Auxis]

As far as we've seen, the Twisting Nether IS what characters in this setting understand space to be. Whenever someone leaves a planet in canon they're described as "going to the twisting nether," traveling "through the twisting nether" might as well be traveling at warp speed, etc.

Not saying this is the correct interpretation but they have been deliberately vague about it over the years. Especially when out of habit its taken them a decade to establish crucial information like a set timeline.

I'm under the impression that the Great Dark Beyond is the "space" of the Warcraft universe, while the Twisting Nether is a magic plane between planets, kind of like a hyperspace.
We see that Legion ships warp/jump between places to get there quickly (see; the Kil'jaedan fight in ToS, where the ship is in warp-drive to somewhere), and using the Twisting Nether to teleport would make sense: the Great Dark Beyond and the Twisting Nether are said to be parallels/counterparts made during the Light/Void clash, and while the Dark Beyond is empty and physical in a sense where celestial bodies freely float in accordance with Laws of Physics, the Nether is magical and immaterial in a way so teleporting between places in a literal sea of energy would be cakewalk depending on the size of the vessel (see; Legion ships vs Sargeras' physical body).

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Twisting_Nether
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Great_Dark_Beyond

[huth]

I'm under the impression that the Great Dark Beyond is the "space" of the Warcraft universe, while the Twisting Nether is a magic plane between planets, kind of like a hyperspace.

Twisting Nether is to Disorder what the Shadowlands are to Death. It is a magic plane associated with one of the cosmic forces. There's probably a Zereth there somewhere, though i wouldn't be surprised if it is basically impossible to reach from there.

[micwini]

Out of all healers, Mistweaver is usually considered the most replacable. The lack of mandatory utility offered by the class is one of the reasons, that's why giving them a battle rezz would make way more sense than handing it to Paladins which are and almost always have been one of the mandatory healing classes.

Both classes have more than just their healing spec. When you take into account all 3, paladin is way worse off utility wise. Yes HPal is good most of the time, but that is because of tuning, not utility. Monks already have plenty. They have the 5% damage taken increase (this raid buff alone disqualifies them imo), ring of peace, aoe stun, etc. Paladins make the most sense for the next BR class, balance wise and thematically.

[Makabreska]

Both classes have more than just their healing spec. When you take into account all 3, paladin is way worse off utility wise. Yes HPal is good most of the time, but that is because of tuning, not utility. Monks already have plenty. They have the 5% damage taken increase (this raid buff alone disqualifies them imo), ring of peace, aoe stun, etc. Paladins make the most sense for the next BR class, balance wise and thematically.

Is Hpala really worse, with it's auras, BoPs, bubble, Beacon, BoSacrifice, Lay on Hands, CC removal? Not to mention, hpala did ridiculous dmg this expansion.

[micwini]

Is Hpala really worse, with it's auras, BoPs, bubble, Beacon, BoSacrifice, Lay on Hands, CC removal? Not to mention, hpala did ridiculous dmg this expansion.

As I said: Tuning. Most of the stuff you mentioned is not enough to pala. Other healers have the exact same tools. And again: It is not just the healing spec, but rather the entire classes that should be taken into account.

[Makabreska]

As I said: Tuning. Most of the stuff you mentioned is not enough to pala. Other healers have the exact same tools. And again: It is not just the healing spec, but rather the entire classes that should be taken into account.

Uh, no dude. Other healers do not have exact same tools. Healing classes would be homogenized af if that was true and hpala would not be a utility powerhouse it is know till this day.

[Nymrohd]

Is Hpala really worse, with it's auras, BoPs, bubble, Beacon, BoSacrifice, Lay on Hands, CC removal? Not to mention, hpala did ridiculous dmg this expansion.

Ashen Hallow is going away and completely distorted both Holy and Prot for this expac, giving us a spot when Prot was rather mediocre. Holy is great for raids and will most likely remain great for raids simply because of Beacon and Defensive Aura. Without Ashen Hallow though, Holy is mediocre for M+.
Prot was carried by Hallow in raids; it has consistently been among the weakest tanks in mitigation for years (which will forever be weird to older players who remember Tankadins having the smoothest damage intake) and carried by damage and utility. In DF they are moving back to making full time of Active Mitigation for Tankadins impossible; if it ends up like Legion when we would simply get gimped outside AM and had to plan cooldowns for every break in uptime the spec will suffer.

[UndedoKoleda]

Out of all healers, Mistweaver is usually considered the most replacable. The lack of mandatory utility offered by the class is one of the reasons, that's why giving them a battle rezz would make way more sense than handing it to Paladins which are and almost always have been one of the mandatory healing classes.

Don't know about Paladins getting a battle rezz. They are already a healer that everybody wants to have and that has a lot of utility. What about Monks, maybe for once? The class is mostly useless and is never considered a mandatory part of a raid. Same goes for Evoker getting Heroism / Bloodlust, why? Evoker has already TONS of utility, they really don't need this.

Dragonflight launching end of November sounds plausible now and it's... okay? I like November releases, it feels more natural than the August expansion launches for Legion and BfA.

The discussion started about Mistweavers' place in raids, and I think that these two comments are absolutely spot on.

I only raided the first tier(CoN) this expansion, though, but from what I remember, everyone preferred bringing Resto Shaman(Spirit Link), Holy Pala(Aura Mastery + Ashen Hallow), or Disc Priest(Spirit Shell) and there was absolutely no reason to take Holy Priest, Resto Druid or MW Monk, over the first three, if both were available(with the exception of the Kael fight, I guess).
Almost every raid having BM as one of the tanks, sorted the problem with Mystic Touch. At least I don't recall anyone bringing a MW to a raid in order to get this debuff.

[Kiivar86]

Question since I've seen this used here and elsewhere - where did CR come about as a term? I've only ever seen BR for Battle Rez before but in the last 24 hours I see CR (combat rez I'm guessing) all over the place, as though it was the agreed upon term since forever.

Was it used frequently in many places or something before and I just missed it? It strikes me as odd.

[Izalla]

Question since I've seen this used here and elsewhere - where did CR come about as a term? I've only ever seen BR for Battle Rez before but in the last 24 hours I see CR (combat rez I'm guessing) all over the place, as though it was the agreed upon term since forever.

Was it used frequently in many places or something before and I just missed it? It strikes me as odd.

Oh my god thank you, I thought I was having a stroke reading CR and going "...combat rez I guess? I really haven't raided in a while because I forgot what to call it."

I did forget what to call it but the fact combat rez didn't sound familiar was tripping me up.

Battle rez.

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I just went to read what they called in on the Ion interview summary in case that was the culprit but MMOC called it "battle resurrection". Too lazy to watch the full interview to hear what Ion himself called it.

[Kiivar86]

Oh my god thank you, I thought I was having a stroke reading CR and going "...combat rez I guess? I really haven't raided in a while because I forgot what to call it."

I did forget what to call it but the fact combat rez didn't sound familiar was tripping me up.

Battle rez.

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I just went to read what they called in on the Ion interview summary in case that was the culprit but MMOC called it "battle resurrection". Too lazy to watch the full interview to hear what Ion himself called it.

Glad I'm not alone! It left me scratching my head. I don't raid seriously so maybe its used there but I figure such would filter down to LFR and the like, but its all brez there instead.

[Fahrad Wagner]

Glad I'm not alone! It left me scratching my head. I don't raid seriously so maybe its used there but I figure such would filter down to LFR and the like, but its all brez there instead.

Same here pal

[Rageonit]

and there was absolutely no reason to take Holy Priest, Resto Druid or MW Monk, over the first three

Oh the irony, conisdering those were the three most powerful (hps wise, but not only) specs in s3 and saw A LOT of play.
Players gonna moan, that's what players do, but in reality, everyone has their time to shine - and outside of the very top, you can play whatever you want anyway. When you read discussions like this, you always start to wonder how much those people who complain the most play the actual game.

[Ersula]

Twisting Nether is to Disorder what the Shadowlands are to Death. It is a magic plane associated with one of the cosmic forces. There's probably a Zereth there somewhere, though i wouldn't be surprised if it is basically impossible to reach from there.

Again I point out how much of this is a matter of interpretation, as nothing of the sort has been concretely explained: The Twisting Nether and Disorder are not depicted anything like how Death & the Shadowlands are on the cosmology chart (the shadowlands & death regions are touching: the twisting nether isn't on the chart at all) As well as I don't think the canon has mentioned "the great dark beyond" for over a decade. Who's to say they aren't different in-universe cultures' names for the same thing.

That being said: Remember when I insisted it didn't make sense that there would be a Zereth for all 6 of the cosmic forces? We've gotten confirmation that I was wrong, but it still doesn't make any sense: If the Automa were creating the basis for all living things in Zereth Mortis, the question remains what the hell would they be doing in Zereth Vitae? That's the life one, then why is life being created at Zereth Mortis?

As much as I want to give Danuser some slack I don't think he likes thinking through any of these things.

[huth]

Again I point out how much of this is a matter of interpretation, as nothing of the sort has been concretely explained:

Except you're wrong and it has. Your "evidence" to the contrary on the other hand is meaningless, as the location on the chart doesn't actually mean anything. It's made to look pretty, not to clarify relationships.

[8bithamster]

Oh my god thank you, I thought I was having a stroke reading CR and going "...combat rez I guess? I really haven't raided in a while because I forgot what to call it."

I did forget what to call it but the fact combat rez didn't sound familiar was tripping me up.

Battle rez.

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I just went to read what they called in on the Ion interview summary in case that was the culprit but MMOC called it "battle resurrection". Too lazy to watch the full interview to hear what Ion himself called it.

Haha. And I'm exactly the other way around. I only know it as a CR.

[Nymrohd]

Maybe it'a an EU vs US region thing? I remember calling it CR (in Combat Resurrection vs out of Combat Resurrection) since I remember the ability existing but I have seen it called battle rez as well online.

[Ersula]

Except you're wrong and it has. Your "evidence" to the contrary on the other hand is meaningless, as the location on the chart doesn't actually mean anything. It's made to look pretty, not to clarify relationships.

It's literally called "the cosmology chart." Its as if you just said "Maps are just made to look pretty, not to clarify spatial relationships" if these things are allegedly settled in canon, post some published receipts.