1. #66561
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    It's literally called "the cosmology chart." Its as if you just said "Maps are just made to look pretty, not to clarify spatial relationships" if these things are allegedly settled in canon, post some published receipts.
    The Chronicle specifically calls out the difference between the Great Dark Beyond and the Twisting Nether in like the first ten pages. As huth said, you clearly don't know. Which is not a first.

  2. #66562
    The Insane Raetary's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Base Camp
    Posts
    19,003
    Chronicle vol. 1, p. 12

    Quote Originally Posted by Realms of Existence
    The Great Dark Beyond
    The Great Dark Beyond represents the physical universe. It is an infinite living realm composed of innumerable stars, worlds, and mortal civilizations.
    Azeroth - the world of Warcraft - is merely one of the countless worlds drifting through the vast reaches of the Great Dark Beyond.

    The Twisting Nether
    The Twisting Nether is an astral dimension that lies in parallel with the Great Dark Beyond. The forces of Light and Void bleed together at the boundaries of the Twisting Nether, engulfing this realm in perpetual strife. At times, the volatile magics that pervade the Twisting Nether intrude upon the physical universe, warping reality beyond measure.
    Oh my, it seems like the 2 are established as 2 individual planes of reality.
    Who'd have thought.


    Formerly known as Arafal

  3. #66563
    Y'all do realize this can still be true about the Nether yet expanded upon yeah? I mean the true Nether is still kinda unknown outside of some glimpses of it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    It's literally called "the cosmology chart." Its as if you just said "Maps are just made to look pretty, not to clarify spatial relationships" if these things are allegedly settled in canon, post some published receipts.
    There are 2 charts. One of which is of Orders perspective of the Cosmic Forces based off the Progenitors' design regarding their influences and how they're placed, and the other is of Deaths PoV. Both are which are limited, but one looks clearly more targeted towards Azeroth and the things we're currently aware of.

    Lots of Cosmic things are still unknown, and apparently there is a Realm and Workshop of Order we've yet to see. So it's possible that whatever much of the Nether we're currently aware of is a rather limited PoV off Order's perspective. Reminder they did this same thing regarding the Dream and the Shadowlands, both of which ended up being VERY VERY downplayed versions of what they actually are lol

  4. #66564
    The Insane Raetary's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Base Camp
    Posts
    19,003
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    Y'all do realize this can still be true about the Nether yet expanded upon yeah? I mean the true Nether is still kinda unknown outside of some glimpses of it.

    They HAVE expanded upon the cosmology.
    And all they did was just reaffirm the 6 forces - 6 planes - 6 Zereths division.

    That is canon.
    That's how canon works.
    You can't disregard current canon just because the writers might change it in the future.
    The Twisting Nether IS the plane of Disorder, just like the Shadowlands are the plane of Death.


    Formerly known as Arafal

  5. #66565
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    The Chronicle specifically calls out the difference between the Great Dark Beyond and the Twisting Nether in like the first ten pages. As huth said, you clearly don't know. Which is not a first.
    Yes, but the Chronicle also makes descriptions about the Dream and the Shadowlands, which feels vague and downright ignorant at best.

    Especially when you consider that the Dream and the Shadowlands are not yin and yang realms. That's just the Dream and Ardenweald, and at best, the "Shadowlands" may just be in regards tk the Veil, as anything past it is almost never mentioned outside of Odyns peek into it, which costed him an eye in the process.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    They HAVE expanded upon the cosmology.
    And all they did was just reaffirm the 6 forces - 6 planes division.

    That is canon.
    That's how canon works.
    You can't disregard current canon just because the writers might change it in the future.
    The Twisting Nether IS the plane of Disorder, just like the Shadowlands are the plane of Death.
    You do realize you're saying all of this while also essentially saying nothing, yeah? I am well aware of all of this.

    I am also aware that the Titans can also just not be fully aware of different realms and have limited perspectives of them as a result. Hell, the Chronicle is limited based on the fact that it's mostly grounded to Reality's origin only, and different realms that "bleed" into it/"mirror" it in the eyes of Order.

    Is it wrong? No. No one is saying that. But it's limited

    - - - Updated - - -

    If anything, I think I'm on your side tbh. Cause I am saying there's much more to the Cosmos than Chronicle, and that the Chronicle should not be considered as the end all be all book of info, regardless of it being "right" or not

  6. #66566
    The Insane Raetary's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Base Camp
    Posts
    19,003
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    I am also aware that the Titans can also just not be fully aware of different realms and have limited perspectives of them as a result.
    You keep repeating the perspective stick when it doesn't matter, what matters is the structure as established by the writers.
    Which is incredibly clear cut and simple.

    The intricacies of each individual plane are irrelevant, and not even what is being discussed.


    Formerly known as Arafal

  7. #66567
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    Yes, but the Chronicle also makes descriptions about the Dream and the Shadowlands, which feels vague and downright ignorant at best.

    Especially when you consider that the Dream and the Shadowlands are not yin and yang realms. That's just the Dream and Ardenweald, and at best, the "Shadowlands" may just be in regards tk the Veil, as anything past it is almost never mentioned outside of Odyns peek into it, which costed him an eye in the process.
    None of this changes the fact the these are separate and distinct realms. You can argue their origin may be evolved but they are distinct.

  8. #66568
    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    You keep repeating the perspective stick when it doesn't matter, what matters is the structure as established by the writers.
    Which is incredibly clear cut and simple.

    The intricacies of each individual plane are irrelevant, and not even what is being discussed.
    Except in universe, this is clearly a matter of perspective, regardless of "authors purpose" which is at best unreliable.

    The structure of the writing is also self contradictory, knowing the Dream and the Shadowlands are not opposing realms, and that the Dream and ARDENWEALD are opposing realms, also Freya did not really "make" the Dream, and that the Dream was always there, and the fact that it's not a "blueprint for Azeroth" like we originally thought and it was just Freya being experimental with the Dream, and blah blah blah"

    Also the Nether being a chaotic mirror of Reality contradicts it being the Realm of Disorder. Unless that was like a veil in a way, fuck no, it's a perspective issue.

    And why is it irrelevant? What is the topic then?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    None of this changes the fact the these are separate and distinct realms. You can argue their origin may be evolved but they are distinct.
    Why does this matter? Did something try to argue they were anything else than that? Besides, the Dream and the Shadowlands have some connection to Azeroth, so Order making these connections makes sense ig...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Again I point out how much of this is a matter of interpretation, as nothing of the sort has been concretely explained: The Twisting Nether and Disorder are not depicted anything like how Death & the Shadowlands are on the cosmology chart (the shadowlands & death regions are touching: the twisting nether isn't on the chart at all) As well as I don't think the canon has mentioned "the great dark beyond" for over a decade. Who's to say they aren't different in-universe cultures' names for the same thing.

    That being said: Remember when I insisted it didn't make sense that there would be a Zereth for all 6 of the cosmic forces? We've gotten confirmation that I was wrong, but it still doesn't make any sense: If the Automa were creating the basis for all living things in Zereth Mortis, the question remains what the hell would they be doing in Zereth Vitae? That's the life one, then why is life being created at Zereth Mortis?

    As much as I want to give Danuser some slack I don't think he likes thinking through any of these things.
    Wtf are you talking about???

  9. #66569
    The Insane Raetary's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Base Camp
    Posts
    19,003
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    What is the topic then?.
    The topic is about whether or not the Twisting Nether is its own plane of existence or not.
    Which Ersula considers not to be the case because they, once again, ignore established lore for their own weird headcanon takes.


    Formerly known as Arafal

  10. #66570
    If the Automa were creating the basis for all living things in Zereth Mortis" They make Prototypes for all different things across different workshops. Not just "death things alone in a death workshop". They are their own magic and place, so it makes sense for them to have prototypes, shapes, etc are different stuff. Hell, the Automa make prototype Pantheons and whatnot and laws for the Shadowlands, but the workshop overall serves as an overall. They just mainly focus on Death and its laws and realms

    Light is also a BIG part there, as both it and Darkness share many biblical and spiritual connections. Especially with the First Ones stuff namely being akin to God and his "grand design".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    The topic is about whether or not the Twisting Nether is its own plane of existence or not.
    Which Ersula considers not to be the case because they, once again, ignore established lore for their own weird headcanon takes.
    Just read that. That makes literally no sense why they say that. Pretty sure fucking TBC has it as being its own plane outside the Great Dark.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The Nether was inspired by Warhammer 40k and the Warp ffs...

    It not being its own realm of existence would be weird tbh.

    - - - Updated - - -

    "As well as I don't think the canon has mentioned "the great dark beyond" for over a decade." Illidan literally mentions how your name scares the Legion throughout the Dark Beyond. Try again.

    Also, the Dark Beyond is Reality. Everytime Reality is mentioned, that is the Dark Beyond.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The Great Dark Beyond is just what Azerothians in WoW call Space. It's the name of the Physical Universe, of Reality.

  11. #66571
    The Lightbringer Lady Atia's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    The Rumour Tower
    Posts
    3,278
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Again I point out how much of this is a matter of interpretation, as nothing of the sort has been concretely explained: The Twisting Nether and Disorder are not depicted anything like how Death & the Shadowlands are on the cosmology chart (the shadowlands & death regions are touching: the twisting nether isn't on the chart at all) As well as I don't think the canon has mentioned "the great dark beyond" for over a decade. Who's to say they aren't different in-universe cultures' names for the same thing.

    That being said: Remember when I insisted it didn't make sense that there would be a Zereth for all 6 of the cosmic forces? We've gotten confirmation that I was wrong, but it still doesn't make any sense: If the Automa were creating the basis for all living things in Zereth Mortis, the question remains what the hell would they be doing in Zereth Vitae? That's the life one, then why is life being created at Zereth Mortis?

    As much as I want to give Danuser some slack I don't think he likes thinking through any of these things.
    The automa at Zereth Mortis were creating the afterlifes, not all living things. Zereth Vitae would prolly spawn stuff in the gardens of life, wild gods, etc., while for example Zereth Tumult would create new Daemons and new parts of the Twisting Nether, if they all have a similiar purpose. One could also argue that Mortis might be the oldest of the Zereths, as it makes sense that you would create the Afterlife first before mortal souls start to go there.

    #TEAMGIRAFFE

  12. #66572
    I am Murloc! KOUNTERPARTS's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    (͠≖ ͜ʖ͠≖)
    Posts
    5,537
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    Except in universe, this is clearly a matter of perspective, regardless of "authors purpose" which is at best unreliable.

    This is wrong because we, posters on MMO-Champion, do not exist within the Warcraft universe. We can discuss the truth and facts of this fictional universe as expanded on by the official authors of the universe with absolute clarity as it's provided to us... because it has been provided to us and has been expanded on.


    We aren't fucking philosophers sitting around a campfire in Stormwind pondering our existence and the reality of Azeroth.

  13. #66573
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Streets Strange by Moonlight
    Posts
    8,295
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  14. #66574
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Again I point out how much of this is a matter of interpretation, as nothing of the sort has been concretely explained: The Twisting Nether and Disorder are not depicted anything like how Death & the Shadowlands are on the cosmology chart (the shadowlands & death regions are touching: the twisting nether isn't on the chart at all) As well as I don't think the canon has mentioned "the great dark beyond" for over a decade. Who's to say they aren't different in-universe cultures' names for the same thing.

    That being said: Remember when I insisted it didn't make sense that there would be a Zereth for all 6 of the cosmic forces? We've gotten confirmation that I was wrong, but it still doesn't make any sense: If the Automa were creating the basis for all living things in Zereth Mortis, the question remains what the hell would they be doing in Zereth Vitae? That's the life one, then why is life being created at Zereth Mortis?

    As much as I want to give Danuser some slack I don't think he likes thinking through any of these things.
    Well while living things are being made in mortis its possible the things allowing those to live are in vitae

  15. #66575
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    #FrostLivesMatter

  16. #66576
    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    This is wrong because we, posters on MMO-Champion, do not exist within the Warcraft universe. We can discuss the truth and facts of this fictional universe as expanded on by the official authors of the universe with absolute clarity as it's provided to us... because it has been provided to us and has been expanded on.


    We aren't fucking philosophers sitting around a campfire in Stormwind pondering our existence and the reality of Azeroth.
    Except you have to see it as is from in-universe. That's why these books exist.

    Also I did not say it wasn't expanded upon. That's not my argument whatsoever. Y'all do realize I agree with you, yeah? I'm not at all on Ersula's side here

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Man View Post
    Well while living things are being made in mortis its possible the things allowing those to live are in vitae
    Or...the workshops just make different prototypes of things regardless and we shouldn't JUST see them as workshops of the different forces alone? They're clearly making prototypes and shit on a fundamental level for other forces and whatnot, but have different sanctums and forges that pertain to a different power.

  17. #66577
    Happy Saturday!

    I would like to propose a fun conversation to get us out of this “Twisting Nether/Great Beyond” debate.

    How do you see Dragonflight ending (lore wise)? Will we get an Infinite Dragonflight (Murozond) shattering the timeways expansion? Life expansion? Titan expansion? Let’s talk it out!

  18. #66578
    Quote Originally Posted by Catastrophy349 View Post
    Happy Saturday!

    I would like to propose a fun conversation to get us out of this “Twisting Nether/Great Beyond” debate.

    How do you see Dragonflight ending (lore wise)? Will we get an Infinite Dragonflight (Murozond) shattering the timeways expansion? Life expansion? Titan expansion? Let’s talk it out!
    Here's how I see it.

    The Primalists are going to bring about the rise of Galakrond again, and he'll be our "Lei'shen" of the expansion. Murozond will rise afterwards, and he'll try to break the time ways, resulting in us having to slay him at the final boss of the expac.

    As for 11.0, I have 3 potential options:

    1. We explore the Multiverse AKA alternate Azeroth or summ like that to try and save time itself from collapsing. Imo this is risky asf and I don't think it'll happen, unless Blizzard really REALLY wants us to see like WoTA or Warcraft 1 Azeroth in an AU setting. Time is fucked and I'd rather they spend their resources elsewhere.

    2. Realms of Life expac, due to the Ohn'ahran plains plotline and Elune, and the fact that it mirrors the Realms of Death stuff, and we could see someone like An'she or have some Nathrezim plots as a result. We could see massive trees, and all that crazy life biome shit, and even deal with Decay in more pure forms lol. Zereth Vitae would be fun to see also.

    And 3, this being my personal expectation: We explore the Realms of Order, protect time itself from collapsing on it, and maybe stop either Sargeras or someone else within Zereth Ordos. There we'll see floating Titan island realms, massive structures, etc.

    Or it could be Light/Shadow, tho I think we won't see that for awhile. A full on Nether expac would be cool, but again, maybe not for a lil bit. And we also have an idea for a potential Civil War expac or something like that on Azeroth, tho I think well explore another Cosmic Realm before we get to that and see shit like the Plunder Isle or the Undermine or whatever tf lol.

    An underground expac and a backside of Azeroth expac also could exist, but again, prolly not for a lil bit.

  19. #66579
    Quote Originally Posted by Catastrophy349 View Post
    Happy Saturday!

    I would like to propose a fun conversation to get us out of this “Twisting Nether/Great Beyond” debate.

    How do you see Dragonflight ending (lore wise)? Will we get an Infinite Dragonflight (Murozond) shattering the timeways expansion? Life expansion? Titan expansion? Let’s talk it out!
    I would say the final boss of Dragonflight will almost certainly be either Murozond or Galakrond, which one is up in the air, though I would lean slightly towards Galakrond.

    The setting I would imagine is time travel. The ultimate plot by the Infinite Dragonflight by attempting to stop the Aspects killing Galakrond.

    My guess would be that we see Nozdormu turn into Murozond sometime during DF, after which we will have the usual "find the macguffin" plotline for 10.2 that tends to be the way to go for the midpoint of an expansion, with the final patch being heavily time travel themed.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  20. #66580
    Final Boss: Galakrond.

    Nozdormu's fate: we kill him as a 10.2 raid boss or he lives and leads us to the next expansion.

    Next expansion: world revamp from scratch as they did with Draenor in WoD. Current world accessible from CoT or something similar. Circumstances of the revamp undetermined, potential options:

    - Nozdormu / Murozond does some magic shit and makes our world go back to the past or move forward to the future an undetermined amount of years.

    - Nozdormu / Murozond does some magic shit and we end up on a new version of Azeroth in another universe.

    - World revamp caused by the regular past of time, showing all the calamities that we have lived through the years and renovating threats and characters, with the inclusion of many plotlines, highliting the presence of the Void (represented by Xal'atath) and the Light (represented by Yrel).

    As you can see my money is on world revamp. 10th expansion, 20 years anniversary of WoW, 30 years anniversary of Warcraft, plus a need for renovation and simplification of systems to attract a much needed new generation of players that has already started with DF. I do not discard a release on consoles with this "new" version of Warcraft.
    Last edited by Darkarath; 2022-08-27 at 03:24 PM.
    Do not take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive.


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •