1. #66621
    I mean, the dragon isles were just isolated for over 10,000 years... it's possible they're in a magical climate.
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  2. #66622
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    There is a problem atm. Shadow has literally too many buttons from the talents. I think some trimming would be required.
    How so? I assume you dont get everything. Idk hardly something i am worrying about atm. Just nice to see some past abillities return.

  3. #66623
    The Lightbringer Lady Atia's Avatar
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    There is a bug going on with the beta not showing up on your launcher - the solution is to simply reset your password on bnet and re-log - just got beta on my launcher this way (for some weird reason I never get blizzard emails lol).

  4. #66624
    Pandaren Monk AngerFork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    Still, some explanation is in order.
    I mean when other laws of physics suddenly stop working like i.e. gravity, well it's either very poor immersion or my client is spacing out due to connection issue or something.

    I mean it could easily be explained by earthlike climate systems if they give the slightest hint, i mean all of Europe is more northern than mainland US yet it is significantly warmer / more temperate in Europe due to the gulf streams (obviously comparing the temperate zones here). Hell the southernmost tip of Great Britain has a mediterranean climate due to the warm waters.

    I'm not saying "Hey Blizzard tell us the exact climatological model your world uses!" mind you, but maybe more than "It's magic i don't have to think of an explanation.".
    Really, is there a proper middle ground here? If Blizz were to talk about a gulf stream or two coming from certain areas, it sort of forces a bit of a closure of their map. If that stream is coming from Pandaria for instance, that narrows down the amount of space between Pandaria & the Dragon Isles. If we get some sort of a hint that certain fronts are traveling to Kalimdor while going through the Eastern Kingdoms first, that narrows the range that a future "Other Side of Azeroth" expansion could have without causing a climate retcon, which would almost certainly be brought up at a future Q&A.

    IMO, it's simpler to just give the proper pieces of lore for the story being told so long as they don't adversely affect other bits of lore already being told.

  5. #66625
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    There is a bug going on with the beta not showing up on your launcher - the solution is to simply reset your password on bnet and re-log - just got beta on my launcher this way (for some weird reason I never get blizzard emails lol).
    You can also check your battle.net account online, if it's there, you'll have beta.
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  6. #66626
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    And as always No beta invite for me.....

  7. #66627
    Quote Originally Posted by AngerFork View Post
    Really, is there a proper middle ground here? If Blizz were to talk about a gulf stream or two coming from certain areas, it sort of forces a bit of a closure of their map. If that stream is coming from Pandaria for instance, that narrows down the amount of space between Pandaria & the Dragon Isles. If we get some sort of a hint that certain fronts are traveling to Kalimdor while going through the Eastern Kingdoms first, that narrows the range that a future "Other Side of Azeroth" expansion could have without causing a climate retcon, which would almost certainly be brought up at a future Q&A.

    IMO, it's simpler to just give the proper pieces of lore for the story being told so long as they don't adversely affect other bits of lore already being told.
    Well yes, i do think there is a proper middle ground between random varied island with no explanation and a complete climatological model (which you accurately identify as potentially limiting future options).

    I would go for just mentioning warm water flowing to the isles, making it make sense "locally"; one side is cold because the island splits the stream of warm water.
    You can let it in the dark where that stream comes from; maybe there is an ancient fire-water battlegrlund nearby, maybe N'zoth's disembodied asshole's farts warm up the water, maybe the pandarian gulfstream warms it up.
    In-universe it's likely only neptulon might know, so you can just keep it to local observations which might imply any number of things.
    But anything is better than leaving such an oddity unexplained, it's like with the black humans and elves; no foul in wanting the option, but maybe mention where they might suddenly come from? Descendants of Kul Tiran sailors that took home some exotic lovers? Blood elves themselves are mutants, perhaps it's an adaptation to being away from the sunwell too long, or from being near it too long?

    Etcetera; Those things that stand out need explanations, they needn't be overcomplex or outstanding, but leaving such things unexplained is like if Anduin suddenly rode around on a flying rat from the in-game store and people are like "Yo Anduin what's that?" and he's like "A smoothie.".

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  8. #66628
    I feel like hyperfocusing on stuff like climate is one of those things that people do to willfully ruin the setting for themselves when they've decided they hate it or want to hate it, especially when they prove themselves more than capable of rationalizing their own solutions to their own petty trifles in their own heads in the same breath they're critiquing the setting for not doing it for them where it's necessary, which is allegedly always. I agree with the notion that fictional fantasy settings need to explain themselves when they branch off from our understanding of the real, where it's relevant to the story being told. I don't think it's necessary or well-advised for the fantasy setting to explain itself any more than it must.
    Last edited by CalamityHeart; 2022-09-02 at 04:25 PM.

  9. #66629
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AngerFork View Post
    Really, is there a proper middle ground here? If Blizz were to talk about a gulf stream or two coming from certain areas, it sort of forces a bit of a closure of their map. If that stream is coming from Pandaria for instance, that narrows down the amount of space between Pandaria & the Dragon Isles. If we get some sort of a hint that certain fronts are traveling to Kalimdor while going through the Eastern Kingdoms first, that narrows the range that a future "Other Side of Azeroth" expansion could have without causing a climate retcon, which would almost certainly be brought up at a future Q&A.

    IMO, it's simpler to just give the proper pieces of lore for the story being told so long as they don't adversely affect other bits of lore already being told.
    Fk sake! I only stated my surprise that DI is at the same latitude as Northrend. I didn't mean to start all of this!
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  10. #66630
    Quote Originally Posted by CalamityHeart View Post
    I feel like hyperfocusing on stuff like climate is one of those things that people do to willfully ruin the setting for themselves when they've decided they hate it or want to hate it, especially when they prove themselves more than capable of rationalizing their own solutions to their own petty trifles in their own heads in the same breath they're critiquing the setting for not doing it for them where it's necessary, which is allegedly always. I agree with the notion that fictional fantasy settings need to explain themselves when they branch off from our understanding of the real, where it's relevant to the story being told. I don't think it's necessary or well-advised for the fantasy setting to explain itself any more than it must.
    Not all of us fail to notice lightning during clear skies, so to speak. Unexpected elephants in a room are also a thing you might expect people to "hyperfocus" on if there is no proper explanation.

    It's not exactly a trivial shortcoming in a roleplaying game.
    I criticised their poor handling of such environmental cohesion during Cataclysm as well, and indeed it proved to be as annoying as expected in everything. And that was with a plausible magic explanation in the form of the breached elemental planes.

    People rarely verbalise it well, but the complaint that it does not feel like a world is not all too uncommon, it might mean that a bit more attention has to be paid to keeping matters consistent, rather than ending up as that joke:
    Last edited by loras; 2022-09-02 at 04:41 PM.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  11. #66631
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    There is a problem atm. Shadow has literally too many buttons from the talents. I think some trimming would be required.
    Then play a build that doesn't take all those buttons?
    That's the joy of having a talent tree.

  12. #66632
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    Not all of us fail to notice lightning during clear skies, so to speak.
    Except the skies aren't clear. The storm is there, but an explanation is being demanded of the clouds forming in the manner that they do, when the story would really rather be focusing on the storm and the heroes' struggles to endure it. So to speak.

    It was more understandable back in Cataclysm, when the world actually was in the midst of a global apocalypse that had a very present, very visible effect on Azeroth during the whole elemental planes breaching reality sort of thing. But even then, there comes a point where scrutinizing the realism of a volcano sprouting in the middle of Ashenvale gets a bit much. And WoW's story has not had such a heavy front-and-center focus on changes to the environment itself since then.

    I'm not saying these aren't things that WoW could theoretically be doing 'better', I just think that there is such a thing as giving too many shits. And derisively comparing the unexplained geology, climate, and ocean/weather patterns of an island rife with magic that hasn't seen the rest of the world in ten thousand years, to a silly gag in a different instance of children's media, is probably a few shits too many. In my opinion, anyway.

  13. #66633
    It's one step before asking "Where do people go to shit"

  14. #66634
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    It's one step before asking "Where do people go to shit"
    I would go one further. Do the denizens of the Shadowlands shit? And if not, where has our characters done their business all this time?

    But yes, kinda pointless argument regardless. Especially when much if it could be handwaved by simply mentioning seasons and magic exists.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  15. #66635
    The Lightbringer Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Btw, they added the sources for the different tier colours with this build - blue is the hc tint *yay*








  16. #66636
    Quote Originally Posted by CalamityHeart View Post
    But even then, there comes a point where scrutinizing the realism of a volcano sprouting in the middle of Ashenvale gets a bit much. And WoW's story has not had such a heavy front-and-center focus on changes to the environment itself since then.
    See, this is exactly the example I was looking for. What was the point of that volcano? Seriously, why did they add it? They needed a few minutes more of questing time and added a jarring feature that makes no sense in a landscape that will probably not change for a decade or more. So yeah, I have an issue with that. Because it just feels lazy, it's a dev that sees the world as a sandbox for them to prop their work on instead of as the product itself. The world is not just packaging to be discarded.
    Yes it's a game but it's also a roleplaying game and some immersion works. It is not nitpicky to find zone transitions jarring. It's not nitpicky to not understand why military assets from both factions are not used or even mentioned when they are in total war. It's not weird to wonder why the creation site for the realms of death is so focused on creating life. If it fails to make sense it's not nitpicking, it's them doing a poor job. They CAN have jarring transitions if they naturally explain it like they do with Sholazar.

  17. #66637
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    See, this is exactly the example I was looking for. What was the point of that volcano? Seriously, why did they add it? They needed a few minutes more of questing time and added a jarring feature that makes no sense in a landscape that will probably not change for a decade or more. So yeah, I have an issue with that. Because it just feels lazy, it's a dev that sees the world as a sandbox for them to prop their work on instead of as the product itself. The world is not just packaging to be discarded.
    Yes it's a game but it's also a roleplaying game and some immersion works. It is not nitpicky to find zone transitions jarring. It's not nitpicky to not understand why military assets from both factions are not used or even mentioned when they are in total war. It's not weird to wonder why the creation site for the realms of death is so focused on creating life. If it fails to make sense it's not nitpicking, it's them doing a poor job. They CAN have jarring transitions if they naturally explain it like they do with Sholazar.
    You mean the one that was made by fire elementals that are sitting right on top of it? Maybe pick another example. And do keep in mind the world is actually much bigger than we see with places that seem a few hundred yards apart actually being dozens or hundreds of miles away from one another. There certainly are climate issues with it, especially in the southern parts, but they aren't as big as you make them out.

  18. #66638
    Quote Originally Posted by unbrained View Post
    And as always No beta invite for me.....
    Ditto bub, I give up I spend an absolute fortune on WoW but im never good enough for their Beta's xD

  19. #66639
    Nice druid changes to the spec trees. The description definitely nails the fantasy of feral. Imo the biggest issue though is the class tree. Hope they have something for that as well.

  20. #66640
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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