Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Nymrohd]

So, hold on... Are the Val'kyr dead Vrykul that went to the Shadowlands and became Kyrian Watchers and then Odyn took them or did Odyn take their souls before they even went there?

I don't think they were even dead. He killed Helya to create a proto-Eyir; someone that can transform worthy female Vrykul into Valkyr. We see living Vrykul get transformed by Eyir during Legion (Hyrja). We don't know if Eyir sacrificed herself first to gain that power or if by that point Odyn knew how to empower an existing Valkyr to convert other mortals into one. Or maybe she was just another Titanic Watcher that was transformed just like Helya and the difference between them and other Val'kyr is the origin. Don't even know how he powers the entire process; it's not anima so is it Arcane? Is it Holy (Tyr used Holy magic after all)?
The Valarjar however ARE created from the dead with Odyn's Valkyr circumventing Kyrian Watchers (and Spirit Healers) to judge souls AND bear them to the Halls of Valor where Odyn Ascends them.

[Makorus]

So, hold on... Are the Val'kyr dead Vrykul that went to the Shadowlands and became Kyrian Watchers and then Odyn took them or did Odyn take their souls before they even went there?

The first batch of Val'kyr were unwilling Vrykul that were transformed by Odyn, through Helya, against their will, so they could bolster Odyns numbers.

The second (and current, I guess) are trained Vrykul who are chosen by Eyir to ascend. They also kinda skip the whole "being judged" thing and take dead warriors straight to the Halls of Valor.

The Scourge ones are entirely different, they are Vrykul twisted by the Lich King into being Val'kyr... somehow? They never really expanded upon that.

[Sondrelk]

The first batch of Val'kyr were unwilling Vrykul that were transformed by Odyn, through Helya, against their will, so they could bolster Odyns numbers.

The second (and current, I guess) are trained Vrykul who are chosen by Eyir to ascend. They also kinda skip the whole "being judged" thing and take dead warriors straight to the Halls of Valor.

The Scourge ones are entirely different, they are Vrykul twisted by the Lich King into being Val'kyr... somehow? They never really expanded upon that.

Some of the Val'kyr are presumably early rogue Kyrians. Specifically the Nine that helped Sylvanas, going by how they are dressed in Mawsworn attire and use Kyrian themed weapons.

[Raetary]

So, hold on... Are the Val'kyr dead Vrykul that went to the Shadowlands and became Kyrian Watchers and then Odyn took them or did Odyn take their souls before they even went there?

The latter.

Odyn got the knowledge on how to create his own version of ascended by peering past the veil and making a deal with Mueh'zala.

[Xilurm]

Alright, thanks guys. I'm less confused now.

[Makorus]

Some of the Val'kyr are presumably early rogue Kyrians. Specifically the Nine that helped Sylvanas, going by how they are dressed in Mawsworn attire and use Kyrian themed weapons.

Dunno.

All but two of them get resurrected as Mawsworns because they died prior, so I thought it had something to do with that.

[Kiria]

Shadowlands lore has seriously fudged up alot of the standing lore... I hate it.

[Sondrelk]

Dunno.

All but two of them get resurrected as Mawsworns because they died prior, so I thought it had something to do with that.

That is definitely a likely reason. Though it still begs the question of why they were in the employ of the Jailer from at least right after the Lich King died.
In the end I guess it doesn't matter at all, but still interesting hat they use Kyrian weapons rather than Mawsworn ones.

[Revamp Man]

Some of the Val'kyr are presumably early rogue Kyrians. Specifically the Nine that helped Sylvanas, going by how they are dressed in Mawsworn attire and use Kyrian themed weapons.

no
odyn saw the kyrian and jacked their style for his new homeboys

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Shadowlands lore has seriously fudged up alot of the standing lore... I hate it.

but the lore is so rich and amazing
dreadlords arent demons they are beings from the shadowlands hence why they revived in argus...like a demon...
well the jailer sent the legion to azeroth by giving them the helm and blade of domination to...get a servant on a planet he already had servants on
the eternal ones united to stop him and when the drought happened...fought each other because...drought??
but sylvanas would never serve the jailer and hated arthas so she...became arthas and served the jailer

[huth]

but the lore is so rich and amazing
dreadlords arent demons they are beings from the shadowlands hence why they revived in argus...like a demon...
well the jailer sent the legion to azeroth by giving them the helm and blade of domination to...get a servant on a planet he already had servants on
the eternal ones united to stop him and when the drought happened...fought each other because...drought??
but sylvanas would never serve the jailer and hated arthas so she...became arthas and served the jailer

Sounds like you never bothered to even check what the lore is, so you're hardly qualified to comment on it.

[Lady Atia]

Anyone else stuck at lvl 68 on the Beta?^^ Guess I have to do quite a few side quests now?

[Gurahk]

no
odyn saw the kyrian and jacked their style for his new homeboys

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but the lore is so rich and amazing
dreadlords arent demons they are beings from the shadowlands hence why they revived in argus...like a demon...
well the jailer sent the legion to azeroth by giving them the helm and blade of domination to...get a servant on a planet he already had servants on
the eternal ones united to stop him and when the drought happened...fought each other because...drought??
but sylvanas would never serve the jailer and hated arthas so she...became arthas and served the jailer

It's long been established that most demons turned INTO demons, they weren't simply made demons. Dreadlords are demons because they accepted the fel, but they weren't demons prior to that.

[Nymrohd]

It's long been established that most demons turned INTO demons, they weren't simply made demons. Dreadlords are demons because they accepted the fel, but they weren't demons prior to that.

It is weird that Sargeras who was specialized in dealing with demons and the Fel did not realize those were not demons yet (since at that point they were conferring with the Void, not Fel). Also weird how the Eredar, most gifted magic users in the universe, never realized what the nathrezim were doing to Argus' soul.

[Gurahk]

It is weird that Sargeras who was specialized in dealing with demons and the Fel did not realize those were not demons yet (since at that point they were conferring with the Void, not Fel). Also weird how the Eredar, most gifted magic users in the universe, never realized what the nathrezim were doing to Argus' soul.

As long as the Nathrezim used the soul to make the demons regenerate faster in the nether, I doubt the Eredar would care.

[Nymrohd]

As long as the Nathrezim used the soul to make the demons regenerate faster in the nether, I doubt the Eredar would care.

You think Kil'jaeden would not at least be curious about what they were doing?

[Gurahk]

You think Kil'jaeden would not at least be curious about what they were doing?

I think they were pretty clear with what they were doing, they were using his soul to speed up the process of regeneration.

[huth]

It is weird that Sargeras who was specialized in dealing with demons and the Fel did not realize those were not demons yet (since at that point they were conferring with the Void, not Fel). Also weird how the Eredar, most gifted magic users in the universe, never realized what the nathrezim were doing to Argus' soul.

Remember what Magni says when you get there? They likely had no idea the Nathrezim were doing anything with it.

[tristannarutofan]

You think Kil'jaeden would not at least be curious about what they were doing?

There is no lore that says he didnt. We barely know anything about the inner workings and drama of the legion.

Far as we know sargeras and archi and killyj knew everything about thr nathrezim and so long as they got what THEY wanted it didnt matter. If u find out you have a double agent one option is keep em around and use that to your advantage.

And then there is the fact that the nathrezim seem UNIQUELY gifted in magical subterfuge. The books suggest the lightnound one might be a traitor to the army of light.

So its really silly to have a blatant example of how a nathrezim can be magically transmuted into a being from a different magical aspect and then suggest its counter to the lore that sargy didnt know they werent demons.

You might as well say "well he doesnt LOOK like an orc , so maybe that changeling isnt him". Their entire scticht is disguise. If that guy can become a light elemental version of himself and work with them for a thousand years then surely some demonic looking creaturs that are masters of shadowmagic can pretend to be fel. In fact the legion ones probably are. Elf biology is extremely suseptible to elemental changes, why not a race specifically crafted to be?

[Super Dickmann]

It is weird that Sargeras who was specialized in dealing with demons and the Fel did not realize those were not demons yet (since at that point they were conferring with the Void, not Fel). Also weird how the Eredar, most gifted magic users in the universe, never realized what the nathrezim were doing to Argus' soul.

We don't actually know whether the Nathrezim were demons at that point or when they set up on what would become Nathreza. Even if they weren't it's not like it makes a difference, converting races he fancies into demons is the Legion's gimmick. Notwithstanding how many'd actually have access to Argus's soul in the first place and that the Dreadlords are the Legion's go-to necromancers, considering it was done to speed up the regeneration of his armies and it did accomplish that, Sargeras'd have no reason to stop them even if he knew they originally worked for the Bald Man. Why would he?

If Sargeras wins and swordfucks the planet, the Bald Man can't put her soul in his machine and his convoluted plan can't go forward. The MO of the Legion in turning souls to fuel for fel means that the Legion ontologicaly can't help the Bald Man and the last time the Dreadlords struck out on their own in the Legion's absence in TFT, they got foiled by 1 (one) banshee, the zombies she had on hand and fucking Garithos. He can take advantage of the Dreadlords working for him consequence-free no matter whether he thinks they're on the level or not. For the time being they're pulling their weight in helping him.

[Nymrohd]

We don't actually know whether the Nathrezim were demons at that point or when they set up on what would become Nathreza. Even if they weren't it's not like it makes a difference, converting races he fancies into demons is the Legion's gimmick. Notwithstanding how many'd actually have access to Argus's soul in the first place and that the Dreadlords are the Legion's go-to necromancers, considering it was done to speed up the regeneration of his armies and it did accomplish that, Sargeras'd have no reason to stop them even if he knew they originally worked for the Bald Man. Why would he?

If Sargeras wins and swordfucks the planet, the Bald Man can't put her soul in his machine and his convoluted plan can't go forward. The MO of the Legion in turning souls to fuel for fel means that the Legion ontologicaly can't help the Bald Man and the last time the Dreadlords struck out on their own in the Legion's absence in TFT, they got foiled by 1 (one) banshee, the zombies she had on hand and fucking Garithos. He can take advantage of the Dreadlords working for him consequence-free no matter whether he thinks they're on the level or not. For the time being they're pulling their weight in helping him.

I just find it weird that a genius like Kil'jaeden would not know he had an entire race of double/triple agents working for them and would not have researched what they were doing. It's not like the Eredar are not accomplished necromancers (Auchenai necromancy certainly seems far more advanced than what Scourge necromancers do tbh)

Of course they could have known and like you say, not cared. Their plans were just not incompatible.

And yeah always felt that if anything, the Legion was the worst thing that could have happened for the realms of Death. Death must have starved for anima compared to each peak gains long before the Arbiter got BSOD because the Legion was destroying souls (and thus potential anima) at a massive scale and Death barely did anything against them.

But hey Zovaal is probably peak failing upwards vibes.