Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Lady Atia]

Yep. It's great when it's used for background world-building. When it takes center stage, as it did with Legion, it should still be mostly unknowable with the actual main narrative thread starring, as it did with Legion. We got character moments with Alleria, Illidan, Velen, and more. We didn't get diatribes on the true nature of chaos and its essential nature as a cog in the cosmic machine and tripe like that. Character moments are interesting - revealing the mechanics of the mystery completely robs those mysterious elements of their potency as there is simply no way that WarCraft-grade writing (even at its best) can ever measure up to the potency of mystery.

Nope. Mysteries are there to be explored. It was super cool to actually see the Shadowlands and get to know how they work, you simply disliked it. That said, I think we need ~2 grounded expansions between the cosmic ones, aswell as maybe a breather patch that takes us back to Azeroth during the next Lifelands/Twisting Nether/Light&Void/Arcane Expansion.

While TBC lore was pretty bad, atleast the way patches played out and connected Outlands and the Legion to Azeroth should be used as a template rather than Shadowlands.

[Nebron]

The main thing I wanted to try out is the new UI. It's obviously VERY much a "work in progress", but needs a lot of tweaks, like individual scaling on things like the minimap. I scale my UI up quite a bit (bad eyes) and many elements simply don't scale at all, or are too large and unable to be scaled. A few initial views:

An option to show class power more like the new unitframe does with health/power:



If you hide the buffs, the arrow should recede to the minimap bar for less clutter:



You STILL can't move the chat box to the bottom edge of the screen. Minor but has always bugged me.



Need a way to fade/on mouseover these, like Bartender; just more visual clutter, especially the bags.

Looks good, though the default color values for the unit frames are a bit too saturated.

[Black Rider]

The main thing I wanted to try out is the new UI. It's obviously VERY much a "work in progress", but needs a lot of tweaks, like individual scaling on things like the minimap. I scale my UI up quite a bit (bad eyes) and many elements simply don't scale at all, or are too large and unable to be scaled. A few initial views:

An option to show class power more like the new unitframe does with health/power:



If you hide the buffs, the arrow should recede to the minimap bar for less clutter:



You STILL can't move the chat box to the bottom edge of the screen. Minor but has always bugged me.



Need a way to fade/on mouseover these, like Bartender; just more visual clutter, especially the bags.

Minimalist dosing of icons is not cool.

[Skildar]

Nope. Mysteries are there to be explored. It was super cool to actually see the Shadowlands and get to know how they work, you simply disliked it. That said, I think we need ~2 grounded expansions between the cosmic ones, aswell as maybe a breather patch that takes us back to Azeroth during the next Lifelands/Twisting Nether/Light&Void/Arcane Expansion.

While TBC lore was pretty bad, atleast the way patches played out and connected Outlands and the Legion to Azeroth should be used as a template rather than Shadowlands.

I fully agree that shadowlands was lacking a patch on Azeroth. Even if our only motor this expansion is that we know the Jailer's plan includes to reduce every being to a slave state, it never felt impending or dangerous.

They could have done many different things for this menace to get real like instead of Anduin, Jaina, Thrall, and Baine to get kidnapped in the intro video and us going directly into the shadowlands, we live this escalation in the first patch. Or midway we go to Quel'Thalas searching for domination magic traces and artefacts that the Primus could use to protect us from the jailer, as we investigate we could also fight off the scourge remnants in various scenari

[Kiria]

You'll almost certainly get better gear from the Pre-patch events. Usually it's at least LFR quality, if not NM quality. Not to mention easily gatherable.

I read somewhere (WoWhead I think) that pre patch gear will be 280, so you're right in there's no point in gearing rn.

[Berkilak]

Mysteries are there to be explored.

Explored? Sure. Explained? Not necessarily. Unless that mystery is the actual central driving force of your narrative. There's a reason we'll never go to Akavir or learn the true fate of the Dwemer in Elder Scrolls. The mystery is what gives those elements its appeal.

Having all these cosmic elements in the background of WoW lore, with little tidbits hinting at them here and there with characters like Brann - that is how you use these elements properly. Mete out answers, but ensure that those answers only create more questions. The second you define it all is the second you've lost the core appeal. And if you feel the need to detail the minutiae of the cosmic inner workings of your universe? You're probably doing so in lieu of an actual narrative. World building for world building's sake is not how you tell a story.

[Lady Atia]

Explored? Sure. Explained? Not necessarily. Unless that mystery is the actual central driving force of your narrative. There's a reason we'll never go to Akavir or learn the true fate of the Dwemer in Elder Scrolls. The mystery is what gives those elements its appeal.

Having all these cosmic elements in the background of WoW lore, with little tidbits hinting at them here and there with characters like Brann - that is how you use these elements properly. Mete out answers, but ensure that those answers only create more questions. The second you define it all is the second you've lost the core appeal. And if you feel the need to detail the minutiae of the cosmic inner workings of your universe? You're probably doing so in lieu of an actual narrative. World building for world building's sake is not how you tell a story.

Well you are just wrong imo. No need to discuss this even further, can we just agree to disagree?

(also, aren't the Dwemer in the newest upcoming ES game?)

[Berkilak]

Well you are just wrong imo. No need to discuss this even further, can we just agree to disagree?

(also, aren't the Dwemer in the newest upcoming ES game?)

We can agree to disagree if you actually make a statement along the lines of, "I prefer when all the mysteries of a setting are fully explained," or something similar to that. That's not how you've come at this discussion, though - you've simply been combative and patronizing. And we know nothing about the next Elder Scrolls - but even if a Dwemer or two are present, that doesn't necessarily mean that everything about them is going to be explained.

Even Tolkien places mysteries into his world, like Tom Bombadil, Ungoliant or other "nameless things" that go entirely unexplained, even within his own supplemental material. Why is this? Because the existence of these mysteries expand the bounds of a fictional universe far beyond what an author can establish themselves.

[Lady Atia]

We can agree to disagree if you actually make a statement along the lines of, "I prefer when all the mysteries of a setting are fully explained," or something similar to that. That's not how you've come at this discussion, though - you've simply been combative and patronizing. And we know nothing about the next Elder Scrolls - but even if a Dwemer or two are present, that doesn't necessarily mean that everything about them is going to be explained.

Even Tolkien places mysteries into his world, like Tom Bombadil, Ungoliant or other "nameless things" that go entirely unexplained, even within his own supplemental material. Why is this? Because the existence of these mysteries expand the bounds of a fictional universe far beyond what an author can establish themselves.

And they established exactly what you want with the First Ones just this Expansion.

[huth]

Minimalist dosing of icons is not cool.

Do remember the game retains the current addon options. You could theoretically even rebuild the old UI.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Explored? Sure. Explained? Not necessarily. Unless that mystery is the actual central driving force of your narrative. There's a reason we'll never go to Akavir or learn the true fate of the Dwemer in Elder Scrolls. The mystery is what gives those elements its appeal.

Having all these cosmic elements in the background of WoW lore, with little tidbits hinting at them here and there with characters like Brann - that is how you use these elements properly. Mete out answers, but ensure that those answers only create more questions. The second you define it all is the second you've lost the core appeal. And if you feel the need to detail the minutiae of the cosmic inner workings of your universe? You're probably doing so in lieu of an actual narrative. World building for world building's sake is not how you tell a story.

You need world building though so its needed and just ignoring the Dwemer in your reason is just lost potential. Eventually people will want to know so no. The fact we explored the Shadowlands isn't a bad thing

There's a reason we'll never go to Akavir or learn the true fate of the Dwemer in Elder Scrolls. The mystery is what gives those elements its appeal.

Yet, mysteries eventually have to be solved, its not just there just for "OOOOH wonder what it is." Whenever we discover it yes I'm going to be curious about what it is not hiding behind this weird keep it mysterious nonsense.

[Cheezits]

Someone pointed out that the ancient DRAKkari empire looks like both Northrend and Dragon Isles. Maybe they are the "primordial trolls" and that's why Ice is being built up as an elemental force and not water?

If Storm and Fire are the big elements at launch, and we're probably getting an Earth themed zone (Underground) then it could stand to reason we get an ice patch.

[Nymrohd]

Yet, mysteries eventually have to be solved, its not just there just for "OOOOH wonder what it is." Whenever we discover it yes I'm going to be curious about what it is not hiding behind this weird keep it mysterious nonsense.

I don't really agree that mysteries need to be solved. You can have plausible explanations given for mysteries, only for alternative interpretation to follow at a later point.

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Btw something separate, I wonder when these Primalists recruited? I guess the time skip allowed remnants of the Twilight Hammer to coalesce around this new goal? But who gathered them up and gave them the information about the Incarnates?

[Khaza-R]

And they established exactly what you want with the First Ones just this Expansion.

Which isn't interesting. Its literally just the titans lore bumped up an order of magnitude to adjust to a bigger cosmic scale. But with being more removed from the core story and lacking the more intricate interactions the titans had with Azeroth.

[Berkilak]

And they established exactly what you want with the First Ones just this Expansion.

You have a habit of telling people what they want and what their opinions are. Be cognizant of that.

And the First Ones are functionally no different from the role the Titans used to play. They replaced a mystery with the exact same mystery, which does credit to neither subject.

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You need world building though so its needed and just ignoring the Dwemer in your reason is just lost potential. Eventually people will want to know so no. The fact we explored the Shadowlands isn't a bad thing

World building is necessary, but it should never be a goal unto itself. It does best when it rewards the people that are paying the closest attention, piecing background details together to form a narrative. Most hardcore fans of the Elder Scrolls likely have a pretty good idea of what happened to the Dwemer - that doesn't mean that it's not a mystery, though. And it doesn't mean that narrative needs to take center stage.

[Lady Atia]

You have a habit of telling people what they want and what their opinions are. Be cognizant of that.

And the First Ones are functionally no different from the role the Titans used to play. They replaced a mystery with the exact same mystery, which does credit to neither subject.

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World building is necessary, but it should never be a goal unto itself. It does best when it rewards the people that are paying the closest attention, piecing background details together to form a narrative. Most hardcore fans of the Elder Scrolls likely have a pretty good idea of what happened to the Dwemer - that doesn't mean that it's not a mystery, though. And it doesn't mean that narrative needs to take center stage.

What a bunch of bullshit. "The Horus Heresy", one of the best narratives based on "myths" of it's setting proves that you can explore worldbuilding and use it as the core narrative since you will always have new "stuff that's kept vague and waiting to be explored". And there is nothing wrong with having stuff being in your face .... not everything needs to be "pieced together by background details".

At the end of the day, you just seem to dislike stuff based on "myths" because you pictured them better in your head, which is fine, but well ... doesn't mean the story is bad per se.

[Nymrohd]

So on Gear Progression in Dragonflight.

Seems that the raid doesn't have a set ilvl for most bosses. Rather there is a large range of ilvls from the first to the final boss. E.g. Mythic Eranog is 424, Mythic Terros (the next one) is 427, Mythic Dathea is 431 and Diurna is 434. I have no idea how that is supposed to make sense. It effectively makes earlier bosses irrelevant faster. And this is a small raid to being with.

As for professions, there seems to be a bit of timegating with Spark of Ingenuity coming from the Tyrhold area from a quest (that seems to not be repeatable so weekly? Daily?)
My question is where does Primal Chaos drop? Does it drop just in instances or also from Elites in Elite areas or from World Quests? If you are up for a lot of grinding, primal chaos gives you Primal Infusion which is used to craft mid Heroic Ilvl gear (414 so the ilvl of the 2nd-4th Vault bosses). Given people can exchange Primal Chaos to buy potions from the new cauldrons, I somehow doubt it will be a very limited resource.

[Lady Atia]

So on Gear Progression in Dragonflight.

Seems that the raid doesn't have a set ilvl for most bosses. Rather there is a large range of ilvls from the first to the final boss. E.g. Mythic Eranog is 424, Mythic Terros (the next one) is 427, Mythic Dathea is 431 and Diurna is 434. I have no idea how that is supposed to make sense. It effectively makes earlier bosses irrelevant faster. And this is a small raid to being with.

As for professions, there seems to be a bit of timegating with Spark of Ingenuity coming from the Tyrhold area from a quest (that seems to not be repeatable so weekly? Daily?)
My question is where does Primal Chaos drop? Does it drop just in instances or also from Elites in Elite areas or from World Quests? If you are up for a lot of grinding, primal chaos gives you Primal Infusion which is used to craft mid Heroic Ilvl gear (414 so the ilvl of the 2nd-4th Vault bosses). Given people can exchange Primal Chaos to buy potions from the new cauldrons, I somehow doubt it will be a very limited resource.

I'll check out the raid ilvl's in a second, but my first thought was that this may be how they intend to nerf the raid? Basically giving you better and better loot the farther you go, while the entire thing may be tuned to be doable with the lowest tier of ilvl?

[Nymrohd]

I'll check out the raid ilvl's in a second, but my first thought was that this may be how they intend to nerf the raid? Basically giving you better and better loot the farther you go, while the entire thing may be tuned to be doable with the lowest tier of ilvl?

Well for any guild that progresses reasonably slow, this just means early bosses are pointless. I did not check but the last two bosses better drop weapons for everyone . . . I think they tried this experiment before and people loathed it and it never went live?

[Lady Atia]

Well for any guild that progresses reasonably slow, this just means early bosses are pointless. I did not check but the last two bosses better drop weapons for everyone . . . I think they tried this experiment before and people loathed it and it never went live?

So I just went on Beta and it surely feels a bit weird - most tier pieces are as low as the loot from the first boss for example. Last two bosses seem to drop enough weapons for everyone though from what I see at a glance.

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Also, why are earlier bosses pointless? Goal of a raid is to kill bosses, loot is just what enables you to do that.