1. #67161
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    Yeah this argument totally wasn't used to write off sl's mistakes either...

    How about we address gameplay issues and you stick to table tops?
    Just play something else if you don't like MMO's it is that easy. Or just don't do the quest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Btw, it's super cool how they integrate BfA races and Shadowland customizations into the new world without it feeling forced. Can't wait to see how an old world revamp would look now <3

    Cant wait how 80% of the npc will be black, just like the guards in Ironforge. Any form of diversity is forced since they actively have to decide it while making NPC's and putting them in. The way characters look in their environment needs to make sense 100% of the time, which isnt really the case anymore since SL.
    I will not reply to posts that are non-constructive or contain flaming and/or trolling.

  2. #67162
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by micwini View Post
    Cant wait how 80% of the npc will be black, just like the guards in Ironforge. Any form of diversity is forced since they actively have to decide it while making NPC's and putting them in. The way characters look in their environment needs to make sense 100% of the time, which isnt really the case anymore since SL.
    Very nice and healthy reaction to AR's being implemented as NPCs.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  3. #67163
    Quote Originally Posted by micwini View Post
    Just play something else if you don't like MMO's it is that easy. Or just don't do the quest.

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    Cant wait how 80% of the npc will be black, just like the guards in Ironforge. Any form of diversity is forced since they actively have to decide it while making NPC's and putting them in. The way characters look in their environment needs to make sense 100% of the time, which isnt really the case anymore since SL.
    Not racist btw

  4. #67164
    The Lightbringer Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by micwini View Post
    Just play something else if you don't like MMO's it is that easy. Or just don't do the quest.

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    Cant wait how 80% of the npc will be black, just like the guards in Ironforge. Any form of diversity is forced since they actively have to decide it while making NPC's and putting them in. The way characters look in their environment needs to make sense 100% of the time, which isnt really the case anymore since SL.
    If you don't like what you see maybe the game isn't for you anymore? I really can't understand how someone can still be racist in 2022 and think it's cool.

    #TEAMGIRAFFE

  5. #67165
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Very nice and healthy reaction to AR's being implemented as NPCs.
    That's a true gamer right there...

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    I am pretty sure the whole black SW guards was just a case of small sample size, wasn't it? The guards pull from all the character customization from what I remember, or at least a large pool of premade characters. The guards are just as likely, if not more likely to be white rather than black.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  6. #67166
    The Lightbringer Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    That's a true gamer right there...

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    I am pretty sure the whole black SW guards was just a case of small sample size, wasn't it? The guards pull from all the character customization from what I remember, or at least a large pool of premade characters. The guards are just as likely, if not more likely to be white rather than black.
    Iirc guards are just randomized when they spawn, yes.

    #TEAMGIRAFFE

  7. #67167
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    Not racist btw
    Sometimes I just want to spam "Free your mind" to these people.

    Humans and dwarves are descended from metallic creatures. When metallic translates to skin, it could very much be any color. The Vrykul themselves had significant variety in skin color from pale blue to deep tan within a very narrow climate band. I mean changing people to give some variety in skin color; now that would be a retcon that actually has a reason behind it (and is it a retcon? Did their skin color in any way matter in a world were there is no evidence of human discrimination (negative or positive) on skin color?

    Does it matter that elves, a race that just gets close to any magic and immediately adapts to it, can have different skin colors?

  8. #67168
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    Not racist btw
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    If you don't like what you see maybe the game isn't for you anymore? I really can't understand how someone can still be racist in 2022 and think it's cool.
    It's not racist at all. I just pointed out that they are forcing in diversity. The way characters look needs to make sense. Stop getting offended so easily and read the post for what it is: An observation, and thus a fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    That's a true gamer right there...

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    I am pretty sure the whole black SW guards was just a case of small sample size, wasn't it? The guards pull from all the character customization from what I remember, or at least a large pool of premade characters. The guards are just as likely, if not more likely to be white rather than black.
    Ironforge, not SW. I picked a very specific example. You can check it out ingame. It makes ZERO sense the way the guards looks after they changed it.
    I will not reply to posts that are non-constructive or contain flaming and/or trolling.

  9. #67169
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    You gain a more interesting and coherent world?

    If you are not allowed to change stuff just because there is an offhand comment about something from 10 years ago, then you are incredibly limited about what you do with the world.

    We knew nothing about Spirit Healers. Even them being Valkyr was never stated, just that the Valkyr went to the Shadowlands after Odyn was imprisoned.

    Spirit Healers were boring. The only thing interesting about them was them looking cool. They had no lore associated with them, they had nothing interesting about them.

    We had an Afterlive Expansion and it makes complete sense to expand on them, even if it means rattling the old lore (it's not like the connection between Valkyr and Spirit Healers wasn't expanded upon, considering Valkyr are literally based on Kyrians).
    They had lore though. They were Val'kyr. That lore was reinforced. We know Odyn traded an eye to learn how create them, we fought that eye for several months while farming SoD. They brought him and his Val'kyr back, it was part of 9.1 questing. And there is a difference between Kyrian Watchers, souls that have lost all memory and may come from any corner of the universe and rogue Val'kyr made by Odyn who are former female Vrykul chosen for this task that specifically chose to follow neither side between Odyn and Helya. And yes there was a questline that chose to delve on that. You dismiss it as a joke questline; Chen was dismissed as a joke character and an entire continent sprang from him. There IS lore there and you can expand upon it. Why is lore that is grounded in the history of Azeroth less important and less useful to the setting than lore from the Shadowlands? We've spent far more time with Vrykul across multiple settings than we will with the Kyrian of Bastion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by micwini View Post
    Ironforge, not SW. I picked a very specific example. You can check it out ingame. It makes ZERO sense the way the guards looks after they changed it.
    Why does it make zero sense? When was dwarven skin color limited to pale white? When was dwarven skin color central to the story?

  10. #67170
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    They had lore though. They were Val'kyr. That lore was reinforced. We know Odyn traded an eye to learn how create them, we fought that eye for several months while farming SoD. They brought him and his Val'kyr back, it was part of 9.1 questing. And there is a difference between Kyrian Watchers, souls that have lost all memory and may come from any corner of the universe and rogue Val'kyr made by Odyn who are former female Vrykul chosen for this task that specifically chose to follow neither side between Odyn and Helya. And yes there was a questline that chose to delve on that. You dismiss it as a joke questline; Chen was dismissed as a joke character and an entire continent sprang from him. There IS lore there and you can expand upon it. Why is lore that is grounded in the history of Azeroth less important and less useful to the setting than lore from the Shadowlands? We've spent far more time with Vrykul across multiple settings than we will with the Kyrian of Bastion.

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    Why does it make zero sense? When was dwarven skin color limited to pale white? When was dwarven skin color central to the story?
    It doesnt make sense with their environment as I said. Evolutionwise. It is very immersionbreaking when characters don't fit their environment. Of course there are exceptions, but they should always come with a backstory or some other way to infer why they are at a certain place at a certain moment in time. Giving characters a certain skin color just because, is inherently racist. Especially if you change it from a position where it actually made sense in the past.
    I will not reply to posts that are non-constructive or contain flaming and/or trolling.

  11. #67171
    Quote Originally Posted by micwini View Post
    It's not racist at all. I just pointed out that they are forcing in diversity. The way characters look needs to make sense. Stop getting offended so easily and read the post for what it is: An observation, and thus a fact.

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    Ironforge, not SW. I picked a very specific example. You can check it out ingame. It makes ZERO sense the way the guards looks after they changed it.
    lmao do we know anything about skin colour at all in Warcraft. How do you know that there can't be black dwarves? "Evolution-wise" LMFAO, this is not earth, once again.

    What a stupid argument. You care because the characters are black. If they added a pink skin tone, you wouldn't give a shit or cry about "forced diversity". Anything that is not white is forced diversity. Stop acting like you take the moral highground here.
    Last edited by Makorus; 2022-09-04 at 10:46 AM.

  12. #67172
    The Insane Raetary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by micwini View Post
    It doesnt make sense with their environment as I said. Evolutionwise.
    ????
    What evolution?

    Dwarves didn't evolve from anything, they were stone and metal robots that got magically transformed into flesh-y mortals by a curse.


    Formerly known as Arafal

  13. #67173
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    lmao do we know anything about skin colour at all in Warcraft.

    What a stupid argument. You care because the characters are black. If they added a pink skin tone, you wouldn't give a shit or cry about "forced diversity". Anything that is not white is forced diversity. Stop acting like you take the moral highground here.
    Strawman. Assuming my viewpoint. It is fine if you don't agree. Just present a proper argument. The color of the skin doesn't matter to me, it would just be as stupid if they were made green, blue, yellow or purple for no reason at all. The fact is they changed it for no other reason than to be racist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    ????
    What evolution?

    Dwarves didn't evolve from anything, they were stone and metal robots that got magically transformed into flesh-y mortals by a curse.
    They live mostly inside mountains surrounded by snowy regions. You can do the rest of the reasoning yourself (at least I hope so)
    I will not reply to posts that are non-constructive or contain flaming and/or trolling.

  14. #67174
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    lmao do we know anything about skin colour at all in Warcraft. How do you know that there can't be black dwarves? "Evolution-wise" LMFAO, this is not earth, once again.

    What a stupid argument. You care because the characters are black. If they added a pink skin tone, you wouldn't give a shit or cry about "forced diversity". Anything that is not white is forced diversity. Stop acting like you take the moral highground here.
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  15. #67175
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    --- snip ---
    4Chan quotes are starting to pop up. Looks like it is time to stop discussing. MMO-champion at its peak as always. Quite weird the racists here haven't been infracted yet.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2022-09-04 at 11:26 AM.
    I will not reply to posts that are non-constructive or contain flaming and/or trolling.

  16. #67176
    I just wanna know why dwarves can't be black.

    You are applying real world science to a fantasy world.

  17. #67177
    Quote Originally Posted by micwini View Post
    It doesnt make sense with their environment as I said. Evolutionwise. It is very immersionbreaking when characters don't fit their environment. Of course there are exceptions, but they should always come with a backstory or some other way to infer why they are at a certain place at a certain moment in time. Giving characters a certain skin color just because, is inherently racist. Especially if you change it from a position where it actually made sense in the past.
    I mean this is racism. You think people should have a certain color depending on their environment. It is immersion breaking to you if someone is tan in a winter area. They all changed to flesh randomly from a metallic forebearer and they have at most 100 generations since that happened. Humans change phenotype over 1000+ generations. The Dwarves emerged from Uldaman something like 2000 years ago.

  18. #67178
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I meant it in the way that they do keep rezing us It's more of an observation. It's not really their job but they seem to think we need to stick around.
    Actually, if you paid attention to Kyrians, it is their job to keep those around whose time hasn't come yet. Like that Lich that keeps getting rejected because he can't get rid of his phylactery.

    You're overly quick at stating the Chronicles say Spirit Healers were rogue Val'kyr, though. Yes, there's some hints that some might have come back as Spirit Healers. But there's nothing in there that precludes said Val'kyr from having become Kyrians in-between.
    Last edited by huth; 2022-09-04 at 11:02 AM.

  19. #67179
    Quote Originally Posted by micwini View Post
    They live mostly inside mountains surrounded by snowy regions. You can do the rest of the reasoning yourself (at least I hope so)
    I mean snowy regions by human standards could mean they should be deep tan colors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Actually, if you paid attention to Kyrians, it is their job to keep those around whose time hasn't come yet. Like that Lich that keeps getting rejected because he can't get rid of his phylactery.
    Oh come on you can see the difference. The Kyrian Watcher choose based on a set of rules (is the soul bound to a different force or somehow bound to the mortal plane? Is someone interfering?). The Spirit Healers are not bound by that set of rules. If anything they probably save us because we are heroic and they were raised in a culture that believed in heroism.

  20. #67180
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Oh come on you can see the difference. The Kyrian Watcher choose based on a set of rules (is the soul bound to a different force or somehow bound to the mortal plane? Is someone interfering?). The Spirit Healers are not bound by that set of rules. If anything they probably save us because we are heroic and they were raised in a culture that believed in heroism.
    Given that they're one and the same, yes they are. You even get specificially sent to Azeroth and see a Watcher doing service there in the Kyrian Covenant campaign.

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