Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Dracullus]

People are not a mass. Different people have different opinions. If after all these years Blizzard still doesn't have a competent feedback process that is on them, not on the community

They literally listen to feedback and put smaller changes in patches, bigger in expansions. I put long list just from memory what positive changes SL made, especially in 9.0. Aaaand everyone ignored it and get back to bitching how Blizzard doesn't listen.

And only tiny fraction of feedback is useful. There are people that bitch about borrowed power and removing AP like system on same breath, there are people that complains about things that were fixed years ago (or fixed and reverted cause feedback turned out to be wrong), there is completely random noise that has nothing to do with reality (once I saw quit video where dude argued that... he HAS to farm Anima).

[Arkura]

Because it is? It's the same Apple does with new iPhones and why people joke about 'em. There's nothing wrong with improving what you already have, but don't make that your "feature" and sell it as a new, fresh, innovative thing.

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I think using general game design (aka Blizzard "stealing" the questing and raiding from Everquest) and blatantly ripping off very distinctive and special features (like GW2 flying) is a difference.

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The problem here is Blizzard's "all or nothing" approach. There is no middle ground for them. Overdose of daily quests - no daily quests. Overdose of borrowed power / AP grind - no borrowed power / AP grind. Overdose of features - no / barely any features.

If they would, after all these years, find a middle ground in their game design, people would definitely complain less. But they seem incapable of doing that and I don't know why.

If you have a solution to that peoblem then by all means share it. Its not an easy task to undertake.

[Caiphon]

The problem here is Blizzard's "all or nothing" approach. There is no middle ground for them. Overdose of daily quests - no daily quests. Overdose of borrowed power / AP grind - no borrowed power / AP grind. Overdose of features - no / barely any features.

If they would, after all these years, find a middle ground in their game design, people would definitely complain less. But they seem incapable of doing that and I don't know why.

I'm sort of with you on daily quests but the other two? I don't want a middle ground I want them gone. Borrowed power grinds are basically leveling but without the factors that make leveling enjoyable (new zones, NPCs, lore). 'Features' have only added annyoance to the game since WoD (mission tables, Legiondaries, warfronts, Torghast) and I'd much rather they used the resources to adjust talent trees, design encounters, diversify PvP metas and generally polish the game up like a company that actually has standards.

[Dracullus]

Yep, because a "moderate amount of borrowed powers" is exactly what people wanted. Stupid Bluzzard, they never listen.

[huth]

Because it is? It's the same Apple does with new iPhones and why people joke about 'em. There's nothing wrong with improving what you already have, but don't make that your "feature" and sell it as a new, fresh, innovative thing.

No, it isn't. Apple releases a new phone each time. Blizzard releases an expansion to an existing game. In the former case, you'd expect something completely new. In the latter, more of the same is the entire point. EA is like Apple. Blizzard is not.

[Teriz]

People don't consider a new, unexplored continent as content?

[Lahis]

People don't consider a new, unexplored continent as content?

Only system grinds and battle passes count as content in this post-GaaS hellhole we live in.

[Super Dickmann]

We've reached the "DF will fail because there's no infinite grind or boutique bonus feature' stage. Congrats people. I give it six months before "Azerite Power was good actually" is the mainstream take.

[Dracullus]

We've reached the "DF will fail because there's no infinite grind or boutique bonus feature' stage. Congrats people. I give it six months before "Azerite Power was good actually" is the mainstream take.

Dunno, I thought same about removing titanforging, we had some (often valid) complains during 9.0, but Blizzard more or less figured out gear during this expansion (casual gear that doesn't affect rest like Nazjatar, PVP gearing, implementing tier sets in M+/solo content). Also I thought game will bounce back to grind era again, didn't happen yet.

In general we already don't play Legion/BfA structure. In SL Blizzard kept systems, but removed grind (in early expac replaced with timegating, nowadays you basically get everything for free). DF will just simplify everything to one window, gameplay will be more or less the same (minus Torghast and mandatory weekly quest). You still will do M+/raids/PVP for gear and world content for cosmetics/gold/casual gear. And I compare DF to 9.0/9.1, in 9.2 Torghast and fill the bar were already optional, no wonder, 8.3 gameplay loop was closer to SL than BfA as well.

[Sondrelk]

We've reached the "DF will fail because there's no infinite grind or boutique bonus feature' stage. Congrats people. I give it six months before "Azerite Power was good actually" is the mainstream take.

I think we first need to reach the "more talent tree options are bad" before we can get to the stone cold Azerite takes. We need a firm ground of Azerite abilities being good because they had little variety before we can see players willing to accept Azerite woons into their heart once more.

Of course, the one I am wondering though, is how long it will take before we get the one-two punch of Tier sets being bad because of borrowed power, coupled with covenant borrowed power being good because it lasted the entire expansion.

[ClownPrincess]

"Dragonflight has nothing"

It's got an open explorable continent with different world events, Dragonriding and whatnot

Tf you mean?

And it has it all! A forest area, a fiery area, an icy area. What's not to like?

Heck I'm pretty there's a desert somewhere there too, I'm not sure as my eyes kind of glazed over when I flew over the new continent in a sandbox.

[Jastall]

Mostly new features I guess? And not just making the base game better. For sure improving the base game and old features is a mandatory thing, but that should not replace new features, which it does in Dragonflight. I can already see how divisive Dragonflight will be just by how basic and ordinary it is for a new expansion.

Tier sets returned in Shadowlands already, so I'd hardly call that anything specific for Dragonflight. New content aka zones, dungeons etc. is for every expansion a given and nothing unsuspected. It's the bread that carries every expansion, so is improving the base game. But where's the butter? As I said, Evoker is it and if you like that - like me - you're lucky. If not, Dragonflight is like a piece of dry bread. It will satisfy your hunger, but it won't make you feel anything besides that.

It's literally Mists tier of new stuff- new race, new class, talent revamp, some other core system changes (professions for DF, cross-realm for Mists) and one signature feature (Dragonriding vs scenarios). And Mists is often cited as one of the game's standout expansions because what it did, it did splendidly.

Personally I'm all for an expansion that does what it wants to do and does it well rather than Blizzard's fifty shades of reinventing the wheel. It mostly worked in Legion but BfA and SL were other stories.

[Dracullus]

It's literally Mists tier of new stuff- new race, new class, talent revamp, some other core system changes (professions for DF, cross-realm for Mists) and one signature feature (Dragonriding vs scenarios). And Mists is often cited as one of the game's standout expansions because what it did, it did splendidly.

Personally I'm all for an expansion that does what it wants to do and does it well rather than Blizzard's fifty shades of reinventing the wheel. It mostly worked in Legion but BfA and SL were other stories.

Remember that Legion features that stood test of time (mythic+, world quests) were not new types of content like warfronts or torghast. It's same tier as raid structure, group finder, timewalking from WoD, war mode from BfA, leveling from SL or professions, talents from DF.

[ClownPrincess]

It's literally Mists tier of new stuff- new race, new class, talent revamp, some other core system changes (professions for DF, cross-realm for Mists) and one signature feature (Dragonriding vs scenarios). And Mists is often cited as one of the game's standout expansions because what it did, it did splendidly.

Personally I'm all for an expansion that does what it wants to do and does it well rather than Blizzard's fifty shades of reinventing the wheel. It mostly worked in Legion but BfA and SL were other stories.

I'm ok with all that and frankly I've long stopped caring about the contextualization of the game, but MoP was also the last time they really created something new, in terms of thematization. WoD was recycling outlands and the orc theme from burning crusade, Legion was recycling the demon invasion theme from Burning Crusade, BfA recycled the alliance versus horde theme of vanilla, Shadowlands recycled the undeath theme of WotLK, and Dragonflight is recycling the dragon theme from Cataclysm.

And frankly dragons are possibly the most trite fantasy theme in existence. But maybe it's wow playing on their strengths. They have to know by now that if someone wants to scratch the itch of playing a good story based mmo with interesting world building, they'll play FFXIV anyway, so they focus on the things they do better than ffxiv: deeper game systems and better pvp.

[Jastall]

Remember that Legion features that stood test of time (mythic+, world quests) were not new types of content like warfronts or torghast. It's same tier as raid structure, group finder, timewalking from WoD, war mode from BfA, leveling from SL or professions, talents from DF.

I still maintain to this day that Order Halls should have carried over as well, with evergreen features like cosmetics and such being gradually added to them. They're a great concept and I find it sad to see it go to bin after one expansion.

But still, Legion also added (or more accurately IMO greatly expanded upon) Titanforging and the infamous borrowed power system pileup that most people aren't sad to let go of, alongside the stuff that as you said stood the test of time.

As someone else said, this is a case of Blizzard never winning for some people. Either the new features are extraneous and they should just focus on the core gameplay, or them focusing on the core gameplay means there's literally no new content, aside of course from a continent as big as Northrend, boatload of new instances, professions, new class, new stories, etc.

[boyzma]

I don't and never will understand the constant Debbie downer, negative Nancy attitudes some people have year after year. If you see so much wrong, the stealing from other games (lol) the repetition, the bad story line, the horrible new races, ect.......then move on...go else where and be a negative downer there. This is a game....important word there, game.....made for your entertainment...it's not your 9-5, it's not a do or die....it's for fun, something to occupy your time. If you're to the point where you HAVE to be the biggest and the best or you're literally going to melt....I suggest you seek professional help.

[ClownPrincess]

I don't and never will understand the constant Debbie downer, negative Nancy attitudes some people have year after year. If you see so much wrong, the stealing from other games (lol) the repetition, the bad story line, the horrible new races, ect.......then move on...go else where and be a negative downer there. This is a game....important word there, game.....made for your entertainment...it's not your 9-5, it's not a do or die....it's for fun, something to occupy your time. If you're to the point where you HAVE to be the biggest and the best or you're literally going to melt....I suggest you seek professional help.

I interact with wow a couple months per expansion pack and I fully accept it for what it is: a largely mediocre game with some accidentally good gameplay drowning in the middle (pvp) that is worth checking out once in a while. I don't expect more than that and it more or less consistently delivers on it.

People like you seem to have a hard time accepting that other people don't put wow on a pedestal and dare to be critical of the game. Basically I think you are projecting here. Sorry that you need constant validation of how good the game is by other people.

[Jastall]

I'm ok with all that and frankly I've long stopped caring about the contextualization of the game, but MoP was also the last time they really created something new, in terms of thematization. WoD was recycling outlands and the orc theme from burning crusade, Legion was recycling the demon invasion theme from Burning Crusade, BfA recycled the alliance versus horde theme of vanilla, Shadowlands recycled the undeath theme of WotLK, and Dragonflight is recycling the dragon theme from Cataclysm.

And frankly dragons are possibly the most trite fantasy theme in existence. But maybe it's wow playing on their strengths. They have to know by now that if someone wants to scratch the itch of playing a good story based mmo with interesting world building, they'll play FFXIV anyway, so they focus on the things they do better than ffxiv: deeper game systems and better pvp.

I'd say Shadowlands was at least an attempt to create something new, issue is while they had some cool stuff like Revendreth, they also had stuff that was either very meh (Bastion, Oribos, Korthia) or so full of memberberry callbacks and cues so it didn't feel that new (Ardenweald = Emerald Dream/NEs, the Brokers = Ethereals, Maldraxxus = Scourge) and of course the Maw/Sylvanas/Jailer stuff which was mired in retcons and other nonsense trying to tie it to the larger setting but did so with all the subtlety of a sledgehammer because Jailer had to be the OG donut steel biggest bad responsible for everything and Sylvanas had to have her hamfisted redemption story.

Dragons are as safe a bet as any that has ever existed in fantasy, that is true, but if they execute it halfway correctly I'll still take it any day of the week over another faction war or time travelling Orcs with tanks. Even then my two favorite expansions are Wrath and Legion and I'll not act as if an evil big man in suit of spiky armor unleashing his minions on the world or a demonic invasion were groundbreaking concepts anyway.

[Sondrelk]

I'd say Shadowlands was at least an attempt to create something new, issue is while they had some cool stuff like Revendreth, they also had stuff that was either very meh (Bastion, Oribos, Korthia) or so full of memberberry callbacks and cues so it didn't feel that new (Ardenweald = Emerald Dream/NEs, the Brokers = Ethereals, Maldraxxus = Scourge) and of course the Maw/Sylvanas/Jailer stuff which was mired in retcons and other nonsense trying to tie it to the larger setting but did so with all the subtlety of a sledgehammer because Jailer had to be the OG donut steel biggest bad responsible for everything and Sylvanas had to have her hamfisted redemption story.

Dragons are as safe a bet as any that has ever existed in fantasy, that is true, but if they execute it halfway correctly I'll still take it any day of the week over another faction war or time travelling Orcs with tanks. Even then my two favorite expansions are Wrath and Legion and I'll not act as if an evil big man in suit of spiky armor unleashing his minions on the world or a demonic invasion were groundbreaking concepts anyway.

I'll happily take the Dragon Isles over the Shadowlands, solely on the basis that the landscape feels much more grounded and "real".
I never thought spending the entire expansion in the Shadowlands was a good idea, so maybe I am biased in that sense.

[Makabreska]

Spicy datamined Balance changes. Wild Mushroom appears in the files:

https://www.wowhead.com/news/datamin...of-wild-328907