Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Makabreska]

I just replied to another comment. That's all I did before y'all jumped on me and tried to downplay any criticism. By the way:

1. Dragonriding is stolen from Guild Wars 2 (fact).
2. Evokers aren't content, they're a feature (fact).

Must be nice to be so sure of facts, it really creates ground for discussion (also LOL at "stealing" DR). Your "criticism" is dishonestly disregarding every new feature DF has. Don't play a victim here.

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How often do I have to repeat myself? I am not discounting that. I'm just saying improving old stuff doesn't replace the need for new stuff. Improvement should always be part of the game, that's mandatory and expected for a dinosaur that still charges $13 a month. That's the least they could do.

I mean I said I am excited for DF because of Evoker and the setting. Yet I'm somehow a hater or whatever because I voice valid criticism regarding the features of the game and Blizzard's lazy "less is more" approach of game design.

Most of features from past expansions failed and annoyed people. So Blizz is going back to the roots to refine core mechanics, and I saw plenty players being glad with this approach. But apparently now it is a lazy game design.

[Shakzor]

Most of features from past expansions failed and annoyed people. So Blizz is going back to the roots to refine core mechanics, and I saw plenty players being glad with this approach. But apparently now it is a lazy game design.

I'm in the camp "thank god for no ap grinds", but they just cannot win.
They do stuff it's wrong and when they don't do something or change it, it's wrong aswell.
Look at mission tables. They were big in WoD and people didn't like it (and mostly offloaded it to addons) and then they became optional and people still bitched and moaned.
People complained about AP Grinds, now they do away and "omg, they lazy and no new content!" comes to light

[Nymrohd]

I'm in the camp "thank god for no ap grinds", but they just cannot win.
They do stuff it's wrong and when they don't do something or change it, it's wrong aswell.
Look at mission tables. They were big in WoD and people didn't like it (and mostly offloaded it to addons) and then they became optional and people still bitched and moaned.
People complained about AP Grinds, now they do away and "omg, they lazy and no new content!" comes to light

People are not a mass. Different people have different opinions. If after all these years Blizzard still doesn't have a competent feedback process that is on them, not on the community

[Caiphon]

I just replied to another comment. That's all I did before y'all jumped on me and tried to downplay any criticism. By the way:

1. Dragonriding is stolen from Guild Wars 2 (fact).
2. Evokers aren't content, they're a feature (fact).

Why not go all the way and claim classic WoW stole questing and raiding from Everquest and Dark Age of Camelot? There are many, many features that gaming companies 'borrow' off each other and that's completely legit as long as it's fun and doesn't infringe on copyright. League of Legends is completely based off a user-created mod of Warcraft 3, didn't stop it from becoming immensely popular.

And in a game where pretty much everyone has alts all over the place I'd say evokers do count as content. Also applies to pvp environments as you'll be fighting against them so it's kinda like a new mob or boss.

[Nyel]

But apparently now it is a lazy game design.

Because it is? It's the same Apple does with new iPhones and why people joke about 'em. There's nothing wrong with improving what you already have, but don't make that your "feature" and sell it as a new, fresh, innovative thing.

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Why not go all the way and claim classic WoW stole questing and raiding from Everquest and Dark Age of Camelot? There are many, many features that gaming companies 'borrow' off each other and that's completely legit as long as it's fun and doesn't infringe on copyright. League of Legends is completely based off a user-created mod of Warcraft 3, didn't stop it from becoming immensely popular.

And in a game where pretty much everyone has alts all over the place I'd say evokers do count as content. Also applies to pvp environments as you'll be fighting against them so it's kinda like a new mob or boss.

I think using general game design (aka Blizzard "stealing" the questing and raiding from Everquest) and blatantly ripping off very distinctive and special features (like GW2 flying) is a difference.

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I'm in the camp "thank god for no ap grinds", but they just cannot win.
They do stuff it's wrong and when they don't do something or change it, it's wrong aswell.
Look at mission tables. They were big in WoD and people didn't like it (and mostly offloaded it to addons) and then they became optional and people still bitched and moaned.
People complained about AP Grinds, now they do away and "omg, they lazy and no new content!" comes to light

The problem here is Blizzard's "all or nothing" approach. There is no middle ground for them. Overdose of daily quests - no daily quests. Overdose of borrowed power / AP grind - no borrowed power / AP grind. Overdose of features - no / barely any features.

If they would, after all these years, find a middle ground in their game design, people would definitely complain less. But they seem incapable of doing that and I don't know why.

[Dracullus]

People are not a mass. Different people have different opinions. If after all these years Blizzard still doesn't have a competent feedback process that is on them, not on the community

They literally listen to feedback and put smaller changes in patches, bigger in expansions. I put long list just from memory what positive changes SL made, especially in 9.0. Aaaand everyone ignored it and get back to bitching how Blizzard doesn't listen.

And only tiny fraction of feedback is useful. There are people that bitch about borrowed power and removing AP like system on same breath, there are people that complains about things that were fixed years ago (or fixed and reverted cause feedback turned out to be wrong), there is completely random noise that has nothing to do with reality (once I saw quit video where dude argued that... he HAS to farm Anima).

[Arkura]

Because it is? It's the same Apple does with new iPhones and why people joke about 'em. There's nothing wrong with improving what you already have, but don't make that your "feature" and sell it as a new, fresh, innovative thing.

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I think using general game design (aka Blizzard "stealing" the questing and raiding from Everquest) and blatantly ripping off very distinctive and special features (like GW2 flying) is a difference.

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The problem here is Blizzard's "all or nothing" approach. There is no middle ground for them. Overdose of daily quests - no daily quests. Overdose of borrowed power / AP grind - no borrowed power / AP grind. Overdose of features - no / barely any features.

If they would, after all these years, find a middle ground in their game design, people would definitely complain less. But they seem incapable of doing that and I don't know why.

If you have a solution to that peoblem then by all means share it. Its not an easy task to undertake.

[Caiphon]

The problem here is Blizzard's "all or nothing" approach. There is no middle ground for them. Overdose of daily quests - no daily quests. Overdose of borrowed power / AP grind - no borrowed power / AP grind. Overdose of features - no / barely any features.

If they would, after all these years, find a middle ground in their game design, people would definitely complain less. But they seem incapable of doing that and I don't know why.

I'm sort of with you on daily quests but the other two? I don't want a middle ground I want them gone. Borrowed power grinds are basically leveling but without the factors that make leveling enjoyable (new zones, NPCs, lore). 'Features' have only added annyoance to the game since WoD (mission tables, Legiondaries, warfronts, Torghast) and I'd much rather they used the resources to adjust talent trees, design encounters, diversify PvP metas and generally polish the game up like a company that actually has standards.

[Dracullus]

Yep, because a "moderate amount of borrowed powers" is exactly what people wanted. Stupid Bluzzard, they never listen.

[huth]

Because it is? It's the same Apple does with new iPhones and why people joke about 'em. There's nothing wrong with improving what you already have, but don't make that your "feature" and sell it as a new, fresh, innovative thing.

No, it isn't. Apple releases a new phone each time. Blizzard releases an expansion to an existing game. In the former case, you'd expect something completely new. In the latter, more of the same is the entire point. EA is like Apple. Blizzard is not.

[Teriz]

People don't consider a new, unexplored continent as content?

[Lahis]

People don't consider a new, unexplored continent as content?

Only system grinds and battle passes count as content in this post-GaaS hellhole we live in.

[Super Dickmann]

We've reached the "DF will fail because there's no infinite grind or boutique bonus feature' stage. Congrats people. I give it six months before "Azerite Power was good actually" is the mainstream take.

[Dracullus]

We've reached the "DF will fail because there's no infinite grind or boutique bonus feature' stage. Congrats people. I give it six months before "Azerite Power was good actually" is the mainstream take.

Dunno, I thought same about removing titanforging, we had some (often valid) complains during 9.0, but Blizzard more or less figured out gear during this expansion (casual gear that doesn't affect rest like Nazjatar, PVP gearing, implementing tier sets in M+/solo content). Also I thought game will bounce back to grind era again, didn't happen yet.

In general we already don't play Legion/BfA structure. In SL Blizzard kept systems, but removed grind (in early expac replaced with timegating, nowadays you basically get everything for free). DF will just simplify everything to one window, gameplay will be more or less the same (minus Torghast and mandatory weekly quest). You still will do M+/raids/PVP for gear and world content for cosmetics/gold/casual gear. And I compare DF to 9.0/9.1, in 9.2 Torghast and fill the bar were already optional, no wonder, 8.3 gameplay loop was closer to SL than BfA as well.

[Sondrelk]

We've reached the "DF will fail because there's no infinite grind or boutique bonus feature' stage. Congrats people. I give it six months before "Azerite Power was good actually" is the mainstream take.

I think we first need to reach the "more talent tree options are bad" before we can get to the stone cold Azerite takes. We need a firm ground of Azerite abilities being good because they had little variety before we can see players willing to accept Azerite woons into their heart once more.

Of course, the one I am wondering though, is how long it will take before we get the one-two punch of Tier sets being bad because of borrowed power, coupled with covenant borrowed power being good because it lasted the entire expansion.

[ClownPrincess]

"Dragonflight has nothing"

It's got an open explorable continent with different world events, Dragonriding and whatnot

Tf you mean?

And it has it all! A forest area, a fiery area, an icy area. What's not to like?

Heck I'm pretty there's a desert somewhere there too, I'm not sure as my eyes kind of glazed over when I flew over the new continent in a sandbox.

[Jastall]

Mostly new features I guess? And not just making the base game better. For sure improving the base game and old features is a mandatory thing, but that should not replace new features, which it does in Dragonflight. I can already see how divisive Dragonflight will be just by how basic and ordinary it is for a new expansion.

Tier sets returned in Shadowlands already, so I'd hardly call that anything specific for Dragonflight. New content aka zones, dungeons etc. is for every expansion a given and nothing unsuspected. It's the bread that carries every expansion, so is improving the base game. But where's the butter? As I said, Evoker is it and if you like that - like me - you're lucky. If not, Dragonflight is like a piece of dry bread. It will satisfy your hunger, but it won't make you feel anything besides that.

It's literally Mists tier of new stuff- new race, new class, talent revamp, some other core system changes (professions for DF, cross-realm for Mists) and one signature feature (Dragonriding vs scenarios). And Mists is often cited as one of the game's standout expansions because what it did, it did splendidly.

Personally I'm all for an expansion that does what it wants to do and does it well rather than Blizzard's fifty shades of reinventing the wheel. It mostly worked in Legion but BfA and SL were other stories.

[Dracullus]

It's literally Mists tier of new stuff- new race, new class, talent revamp, some other core system changes (professions for DF, cross-realm for Mists) and one signature feature (Dragonriding vs scenarios). And Mists is often cited as one of the game's standout expansions because what it did, it did splendidly.

Personally I'm all for an expansion that does what it wants to do and does it well rather than Blizzard's fifty shades of reinventing the wheel. It mostly worked in Legion but BfA and SL were other stories.

Remember that Legion features that stood test of time (mythic+, world quests) were not new types of content like warfronts or torghast. It's same tier as raid structure, group finder, timewalking from WoD, war mode from BfA, leveling from SL or professions, talents from DF.

[ClownPrincess]

It's literally Mists tier of new stuff- new race, new class, talent revamp, some other core system changes (professions for DF, cross-realm for Mists) and one signature feature (Dragonriding vs scenarios). And Mists is often cited as one of the game's standout expansions because what it did, it did splendidly.

Personally I'm all for an expansion that does what it wants to do and does it well rather than Blizzard's fifty shades of reinventing the wheel. It mostly worked in Legion but BfA and SL were other stories.

I'm ok with all that and frankly I've long stopped caring about the contextualization of the game, but MoP was also the last time they really created something new, in terms of thematization. WoD was recycling outlands and the orc theme from burning crusade, Legion was recycling the demon invasion theme from Burning Crusade, BfA recycled the alliance versus horde theme of vanilla, Shadowlands recycled the undeath theme of WotLK, and Dragonflight is recycling the dragon theme from Cataclysm.

And frankly dragons are possibly the most trite fantasy theme in existence. But maybe it's wow playing on their strengths. They have to know by now that if someone wants to scratch the itch of playing a good story based mmo with interesting world building, they'll play FFXIV anyway, so they focus on the things they do better than ffxiv: deeper game systems and better pvp.

[Jastall]

Remember that Legion features that stood test of time (mythic+, world quests) were not new types of content like warfronts or torghast. It's same tier as raid structure, group finder, timewalking from WoD, war mode from BfA, leveling from SL or professions, talents from DF.

I still maintain to this day that Order Halls should have carried over as well, with evergreen features like cosmetics and such being gradually added to them. They're a great concept and I find it sad to see it go to bin after one expansion.

But still, Legion also added (or more accurately IMO greatly expanded upon) Titanforging and the infamous borrowed power system pileup that most people aren't sad to let go of, alongside the stuff that as you said stood the test of time.

As someone else said, this is a case of Blizzard never winning for some people. Either the new features are extraneous and they should just focus on the core gameplay, or them focusing on the core gameplay means there's literally no new content, aside of course from a continent as big as Northrend, boatload of new instances, professions, new class, new stories, etc.