Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Nymrohd]

God I REALLY hope Azshara gets her own expansion. I don't care that she was a patch boss.

While Nazjatar was disappointing in scale Azshara was presented well. She had her own agenda, the voice acting was solid, she got to stay around. She is probably the best thing to come out of her expansion in the same way Denathrius escaping was the best part of Shadowlands.

[Revamp Man]

It will be interesting to see how it feels in practice.
In theory it should give a strong incentive to push forwards, but in practice it might end up feeling horrible if you get drops from the first boss while the rest of the group gets all the good items from the later bosses.
Even if its only a negligible difference in thorughout, it would still feel bad to get stuff from earlier in the raid where the weaker items are, especially if you primarily gear you through raids.

So like it is now but less impactful because the gap is smaller and there's more possible loot

[Skildar]

While Nazjatar was disappointing in scale Azshara was presented well. She had her own agenda, the voice acting was solid, she got to stay around. She is probably the best thing to come out of her expansion in the same way Denathrius escaping was the best part of Shadowlands.

BfA is a bastard child. There are a lot of good storylines and plot points. But they've been weaved together in a way that makes no sense and is quite horrible to follow.
A good example is Azshara and Nazjatar. Amongst this good setup lies Ashvane and noone knew why or how or more importantly what for.

This is something that they didn't improve on during Shadowlands and I really hope that for Dragonflight they will display better storytelling, get people on hook and provide some real cliffhangers (please no more Anduin pocket watch chapters...)

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Yeah no. So many plot lines in WoD were just cut off, the story was literally cut out by 1/3 in order to rush Legion out the door and so many plot points were just abandoned.

And them 'following up' for the allied race was literally 30 years later after the events of WoD all of those plot points obviously no longer existed? Abandoning half of your story's outcomes so you don't have to think of new ideas 10+ years later isn't the genius you seem to think it is.

Leaving things cut off with no clear direction to take them is abandoning. Picking up an abandoned storyline and running with it 10 years later doesn't change the fact that it was abandoned.

The storyline isn't abandoned, that implies they are never going to do something with it. Which is clearly not the case if they brought up the Mag'har. BFA wasn't that long ago so obviously they still know about it but aren't using it. By your logic, for a long time Azshara was "Abandoned for not using her for so long. Really thats just not true. They have to figure out how to put these characters in a place that fits. Same with some of these loose ends((Sargeras Sword, Azshara being out there. Knifu lady, whatever Zovaal was afraid of etc etc)).

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Every story line in question is dead and gone because of the time skip? Garrosh is old af now, all those wod plot points were like 30+ years ago they are long dead and gone what do you even mean? They buried them all with the time skip..

And somehow you can confidently claim its never going to be brought up again? Just like that?


I really doubt that.

[Nymrohd]

This is something that they didn't improve on during Shadowlands and I really hope that for Dragonflight they will display better storytelling, get people on hook and provide some real cliffhangers (please no more Anduin pocket watch chapters...)

I mean they can keep their soap opera crap as long as it is in addition to world building and character building. This is my main concern with WoW, nothing I've seen from the writing team indicates a shift from character-focused to world-focused when it comes to the main storyline. It's funny because in the Wrath Classic announcement they had it as one of the cornerstones of the setting. And the leveling experience absolutely still has those.

Βack then characters were used to tell the story of the world instead of the world being a disposable backdrop for writer pets to play their dramas. Think of a character like Drakuru; much of Grizzly Hills and the start of Zul'drak are his story but his story is used to guide us through and show us the world. And even more recently example Thalyssra and company; an entire arc built around a few characters but at every point making Suramar itself the protagonist. In Drustvar everything tells the history of the land. That's WoW Storytelling at its best.

[Luck4]

I mean, this desire is on par with "Argus xpac" and "Emerald Dream" expac. Blizz simply preferred to make them into patches instead. And I really don't mind, seeing how good DF looks like.

This approach really bugs me. I mean, instead of making expansions based on the available/known lore and exploring places such as Nya'lotha, Naz'jatar, Emerald Dream/Nightmare, Blizzard rushed this content as patches while developing a full fledge expansion based on a single cosmic plane with little to no lore.

I don't understand it, especially now that Shadowlands failed so badly in delivering something new and enjoyable.

[Zulggun]

Hence the Dragoflight. People wanted Dragon Isles for years.

[Foolicious]

What's wrong with mind spike? It works great with procs and Dark Ascension.

It just feels unintuitive. Weaving it into normal gameplay with only procs feels like a wasted talent point. Why wait for procs to be able to use mind spike if they could just increase the reset chance of mind blast? It also makes shadow very busy and cluttered with high haste levels.
A fully dotless playstyle with mindspike as your filler on the other hand also isn't supported since you basically waste half your talent points you have to spend on dot damage anyway and you want to use your insanity for plague. Dark ascension even generates a lot which makes capping and overgenerating insanity even more likely during that window.

It just needs a lot of finetuning to feel right for me personally. Maybe if it doesn't clear plague is enough to do so. Or maybe im just dissapointed because i hoped they would nail the flow of wod priest.

[Skildar]

I mean they can keep their soap opera crap as long as it is in addition to world building and character building. This is my main concern with WoW, nothing I've seen from the writing team indicates a shift from character-focused to world-focused when it comes to the main storyline. It's funny because in the Wrath Classic announcement they had it as one of the cornerstones of the setting. And the leveling experience absolutely still has those.

Βack then characters were used to tell the story of the world instead of the world being a disposable backdrop for writer pets to play their dramas. Think of a character like Drakuru; much of Grizzly Hills and the start of Zul'drak are his story but his story is used to guide us through and show us the world. And even more recently example Thalyssra and company; an entire arc built around a few characters but at every point making Suramar itself the protagonist. In Drustvar everything tells the history of the land. That's WoW Storytelling at its best.

You have this kind of storytelling through most of the shadowlands. But they've layed on top of this their soap opera of "main cast" characters that brings very little to the world (Bolvar, Thrall, Baine, etc.)
World building is still very strong each expansion, maybe at its strongest in MoP, WoD and Shadowlands than any other expac. But for BfA and Shadowlands the narrative is so weak it's confusing if they were expecting better tools to tell the story they wanted to tell or if they've changed it a couple of months before alpha because they couldn't land on the right way to do it.

Why write a whole expansion to end with a duel between saurfang and sylvanas and put so much emphasis on many world breaking events that do not pave the way to this finale?

Why choose Bolvar to lead if the character is given the opportunities or tools to do so? Why bring the four horsemen to just stand down every fight? Why can't they shine like they did during legion?

[Nymrohd]

You have this kind of storytelling through most of the shadowlands. But they've layed on top of this their soap opera of "main cast" characters that brings very little to the world (Bolvar, Thrall, Baine, etc.)
World building is still very strong each expansion, maybe at its strongest in MoP, WoD and Shadowlands than any other expac. But for BfA and Shadowlands the narrative is so weak it's confusing if they were expecting better tools to tell the story they wanted to tell or if they've changed it a couple of months before alpha because they couldn't land on the right way to do it.

Why write a whole expansion to end with a duel between saurfang and sylvanas and put so much emphasis on many world breaking events that do not pave the way to this finale?

Why choose Bolvar to lead if the character is given the opportunities or tools to do so? Why bring the four horsemen to just stand down every fight? Why can't they shine like they did during legion?

I honestly felt world building was very shallow in Shadowlands. First off, what is there out of the four planes? Presumably the afterlives for the vast majority of people are outside the places we got to see yet we don't get even a glimpse from them. What was Korthia meant to be? And from the four zones we spend the most time at, I felt quite a few plot lines were just left open. Look at Maldraxxus. Why is there no effort to show how Maldraxxus and the Scourge influenced each other? Is there any relation between the Aranakk and the Nerubians? Barely any effort to resolve the plot lines of Maldraxxus outside Draka when it comes to the Houses other than Vashj eventually making her own bid (and what till then? Are three houses effectively defunct?)

And yeah I fully expected Bolvar to be the Dadgar of the expac, narrating world quests left and right. He mostly just stood there so we could turn quests to him.

As for WoD, I felt depth in world building varied a lot probably because of the cut content. Draenei, Ogres, Arrakoa and some clans got solid world building. The short stories for ogres and arakkoa did a marvelous job showing their cultures. Other orc clans (Laughing Skull, Shattered Hand) barely got enough. But what was there was high quality.

[Skildar]

I honestly felt world building was very shallow in Shadowlands. First off, what is there out of the four planes? Presumably the afterlives for the vast majority of people are outside the places we got to see yet we don't get even a glimpse from them. What was Korthia meant to be? And from the four zones we spend the most time at, I felt quite a few plot lines were just left open. Look at Maldraxxus. Why is there no effort to show how Maldraxxus and the Scourge influenced each other? Is there any relation between the Aranakk and the Nerubians? Barely any effort to resolve the plot lines of Maldraxxus outside Draka when it comes to the Houses other than Vashj eventually making her own bid (and what till then? Are three houses effectively defunct?)

And yeah I fully expected Bolvar to be the Dadgar of the expac, narrating world quests left and right. He mostly just stood there so we could turn quests to him.

As for WoD, I felt depth in world building varied a lot probably because of the cut content. Draenei, Ogres, Arrakoa and some clans got solid world building. The short stories for ogres and arakkoa did a marvelous job showing their cultures. Other orc clans (Laughing Skull, Shattered Hand) barely got enough. But what was there was high quality.

yep maldraxxus is the biggest fail of the shadowlands... We could have learned much more about the wars fought by the shadowlands and all the examples you've pointed above. We know for a fact that the magrave of the house of rituals is a traitor and yet save her and put her back on her throne without much consideration... Well as a rule of thumb, all margrave don't deserve any attention and it's mostly garbage lore there. But for the three other main zones it's full of good little details that make your eye spark. The night fae has surprisingly a lot of various denizens that love to talk about their previous world and how the shadowlands are shaped.

For Korthia, I'm quite puzzled at the attempt made there. It felt like the secret place that the primus used as laboratory and storage facility.

But tazavesh and zereth mortis are both awesome and rich places. Nazjatar felt more like a Korthia than a zereth mortis for instance.

I guess that the lack of consistency from blizzard is the most worrying piece for now. You don't know what to expect and what "lesson" they've learned from previous expac. They got that people don't want cosmic stories like the shadowlands'. But there was some very good stuff in shadowlands that I want to be done right again ^^

P.S. : I almost forgot how much the maw is as bad as maldraxxus but I feel like it's more that it didn't feel like a torture place or a freightning place either. I wish we could have had more impactful mechanics.
A river of souls that get very active from time to time, or helya that pop out of nowhere and try and kill you, swarms of mawangels that descend from the sky to pulverise lost souls on their way or even escorts of lich creatures that transform lost souls into soldiers of the jailer. That's mainly gameplay mechanics but it would have felt more impactful on how dreadful the place is than having an eye that tells you that you're not spending your time right in the zone...

[Nymrohd]

P.S. : I almost forgot how much the maw is as bad as maldraxxus but I feel like it's more that it didn't feel like a torture place or a freightning place either. I wish we could have had more impactful mechanics.
A river of souls that get very active from time to time, or helya that pop out of nowhere and try and kill you, swarms of mawangels that descend from the sky to pulverise lost souls on their way or even escorts of lich creatures that transform lost souls into soldiers of the jailer. That's mainly gameplay mechanics but it would have felt more impactful on how dreadful the place is than having an eye that tells you that you're not spending your time right in the zone...

I'd have done the Maw like Nessus from D&D. We'd be playing in a system of massive canyons that intersect at Torghast, much of the zone would be inside the canyons; the entire place would be like Torghast (so chambers linked by bridges or chains across chasms). You could climb to the surface which would be an endless featureless plane with very strong sound effects (deafening wind and constant cries of the tortured) populated by elite death elementals; you wouldn't have a reason to be there.

Then I'd make Torghast different; it would have the usual torture chambers but it would also have entire floors that would be pieces of other realms of the Shadowlands ripped from the In-Between by the Jailer's chains just like Korthia was. That would allow them a much wider variety of environments and mobs. They could use the four zones we got but also Tazavesh and Korthia and maybe even a couple of areas that would not be familiar and would belong to the more peaceful afterlives that we don't even get to see or hear about.

[Skildar]

I'd have done the Maw like Nessus from D&D. We'd be playing in a system of massive canyons that intersect at Torghast, much of the zone would be inside the canyons; the entire place would be like Torghast (so chambers linked by bridges or chains across chasms). You could climb to the surface which would be an endless featureless plane with very strong sound effects (deafening wind and constant cries of the tortured) populated by elite death elementals; you wouldn't have a reason to be there.

Then I'd make Torghast different; it would have the usual torture chambers but it would also have entire floors that would be pieces of other realms of the Shadowlands ripped from the In-Between by the Jailer's chains just like Korthia was. That would allow them a much wider variety of environments and mobs. They could use the four zones we got but also Tazavesh and Korthia and maybe even a couple of areas that would not be familiar and would belong to the more peaceful afterlives that we don't even get to see or hear about.

That's very interesting to me both because I'm not at all familiar with DnD nessus and the fact they've kind of played the scenario in a foreign place in argus invasion and it's honestly worked on me.

The only good thing that I've taken from the spideman far from home movie is the scene where he's in a nightmare-ish scenario. And to me hell is this, loosing your marks, your senses, your feeling of being able as soon as a hope is rising. And there are thousands of ways of turning this into a gaming experience. But our thorghast and maw aren't. They kind of played the feeling of you're in a place where you shouldn't be but not for the right reasons ^^

With dragonflight it seems that for now we're on known terrain, no frightful place type of zone. But we might expect a time distorted place and I really hope they play it righ t

[Caiphon]

P.S. : I almost forgot how much the maw is as bad as maldraxxus but I feel like it's more that it didn't feel like a torture place or a freightning place either. I wish we could have had more impactful mechanics.
A river of souls that get very active from time to time, or helya that pop out of nowhere and try and kill you, swarms of mawangels that descend from the sky to pulverise lost souls on their way or even escorts of lich creatures that transform lost souls into soldiers of the jailer. That's mainly gameplay mechanics but it would have felt more impactful on how dreadful the place is than having an eye that tells you that you're not spending your time right in the zone...

Totally with you on this, for a domain of endless torture for only the most depraved and unrepentent souls in the entire universe the atmosphere is oddly... desolate. Peaceful even, depending on which part of it you're passing through. Looks and feels like Dante's depictions of purgatory if anything. I swear vanilla Duskwood or even BfA's Necropolis and Thros had a more sinister 'death-y' atmosphere than the maw.

Perhaps a slight restriction to vision might have helped? Catacomb-like areas in vanilla used to have this black haze sort of thing that obscures stuff close to the ceiling... didn't really impede gameplay but it sure did provide some gloom.

[Berkilak]

What a bunch of bullshit. "The Horus Heresy", one of the best narratives based on "myths" of it's setting proves that you can explore worldbuilding and use it as the core narrative since you will always have new "stuff that's kept vague and waiting to be explored". And there is nothing wrong with having stuff being in your face .... not everything needs to be "pieced together by background details".

At the end of the day, you just seem to dislike stuff based on "myths" because you pictured them better in your head, which is fine, but well ... doesn't mean the story is bad per se.

Again, why are you using denigrating language? And you continue to tell me what I think, which is a bad habit.

That being said, a more equitable comparison would be exploring the fates of the 2nd and 11th Legions. No matter what the canon explanation is, the allure of the mystery inherently contributes more to shoring up the strength of the world-building than any actual explanation would, no matter how detailed.

And you seem to be arguing a point that I never made. Where did I say that I dislike myths? I love myths. I love exploring myths. I love seeing the "reality" behind myths. A myth is different from a mystery, although you can have a mythological mystery. When you set up a mystery that exists to imply a broader mythos and deeper world than the one you have actually constructed, however, exploring that mystery is always going to be destructive to the setting. As Shadowlands so aptly demonstrated, with the implicit mysteries of death as a concept being laid bare. Again, it was a sophomoric, cynical, and pretentious set up. One that didn't really tell a story, let alone something I could judge the quality of.

I'm willing to bet that there's a fantastic story for Shadowlands sitting in a drawer over in Irvine - it just never actually made it into the game. We got the "big moments" shown to us, but none of the actual character work leading to those moments. In its place, we got world building that only served to shrink the scope of the setting. Whether or not I "liked" the narrative is immaterial - the actual implementation and delivery of the narrative was so shoddy that it is difficult to form a fair opinion on the content.

[Sondrelk]

The biggest mistake of Shadowlands to me, beyond Sylvanas that is, was actually having all the zones in the Shadowlands.

The expansion should have been a Northrend revamp with the Maw as the only Shadowlands zone we visit in regular gameplay. Maybe Oribos as well.

All the Shadowlands denizens would have instead come to us. Most of the Shadowlands stuff would be left up to your imagination, beyond the fact that there is more to it than just the Maw.
Stuff like the Kyrians would not be explained much beyond them existing, and the Mawsworn being Kyrians who have allied with the Jailer.

While we would lose out on a few cool visuals like Revendreth, we would also not have to see the Shadowlands overexplained and would instead have the mystery of how the Shadowlands actually functions left to the imagination.

Pretty much all the relevant plotlines could be brought over wholesale as well if that is an issue. You would just not be able to do zone specific stories. But the return of Kel'thuzad as a leader of Maldraxxi traitors, the defection of Kyrians, permanent death of wild gods, and reveal of the Dreadlords, are all plotlines that could be done just as well outside the Shadowlands.

[8bithamster]

What a bunch of bullshit. "The Horus Heresy", one of the best narratives based on "myths" of it's setting proves that you can explore worldbuilding and use it as the core narrative since you will always have new "stuff that's kept vague and waiting to be explored". And there is nothing wrong with having stuff being in your face .... not everything needs to be "pieced together by background details".

At the end of the day, you just seem to dislike stuff based on "myths" because you pictured them better in your head, which is fine, but well ... doesn't mean the story is bad per se.

Horud heresy best.. Hahaha.. 40k is filled with narrative potholes that make no sense at all.

Space wolves? Every inquisitor that goes there disappears. And they have a mutation that makes em near khorne. But the lore? Neh. Doesn't care.

We have novels of singular space Marines taking on daemon princes. (Ragnar, gaunt etc).

Taking any 40k lore as good writing is a yikes. Even though I love 40k

[huth]

Again, why are you using denigrating language? And you continue to tell me what I think, which is a bad habit.

Where? I'm only seeing a comment on outward appearance ("seem to dislike") and no denigrating language at all.

[Nymrohd]

Where? I'm only seeing a comment on outward appearance ("seem to dislike") and no denigrating language at all.

Calling someone's opinion a bunch of bullshit is not problematic to you? Well I guess not.

- - - Updated - - -

The biggest mistake of Shadowlands to me, beyond Sylvanas that is, was actually having all the zones in the Shadowlands.

The expansion should have been a Northrend revamp with the Maw as the only Shadowlands zone we visit in regular gameplay. Maybe Oribos as well.

All the Shadowlands denizens would have instead come to us. Most of the Shadowlands stuff would be left up to your imagination, beyond the fact that there is more to it than just the Maw.
Stuff like the Kyrians would not be explained much beyond them existing, and the Mawsworn being Kyrians who have allied with the Jailer.

While we would lose out on a few cool visuals like Revendreth, we would also not have to see the Shadowlands overexplained and would instead have the mystery of how the Shadowlands actually functions left to the imagination.

Pretty much all the relevant plotlines could be brought over wholesale as well if that is an issue. You would just not be able to do zone specific stories. But the return of Kel'thuzad as a leader of Maldraxxi traitors, the defection of Kyrians, permanent death of wild gods, and reveal of the Dreadlords, are all plotlines that could be done just as well outside the Shadowlands.

Imo I would have made the Shadowlands NOT be a separate realm. Death itself, like every other force in its pure form, would be unknowable. However I'd have the Shadowlands be a transitive plane; a shadow of reality. In short, I'd have it be where we literally go in game when we die. Combine this with a Northrend Revamp and have the different places of the Shadowlands essentially be places were reality and the realm beyond the Veil are different. Think Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver or Legends of Zelda: A Link to the Past. Dying in this revamped version of Northrend would not disable your abilities, it would be how you'd travel between two different versions of the same zone (utilized to create all manner of interesting puzzles for solo exploration). Covenant abilities or whatever would have been about traveling back and forth between the two realms.