1. #67841
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    Seems you did not understand me as well. I never said "best gear being in mythic is gatekeeping". I talk about giving gearing progression in premade groups only (that only part is the most interesting part) is gatekeeping. I would not care a shit about what gear mythic raids drop as long i had my own gearing progression in my gameplay.
    ZM had gear progression for solo players
    Could even get gear

    But you said the rewards weren't good enough

  2. #67842
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Sorry that the community has been collectively telling them it was bad & they should remove it for ten whole years.
    Collectively is not the right statement. There are a lot of people and a lot of big names that thought keeping it or introducing it "blizzlike" with icc would be better for the game.

    I don't mind it being removed, but i think its stupid to remove it and then introduce a worse system to replace it.

  3. #67843
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    Well, i do not shit on the game
    You barely do anything else. You seem to be under the rather strong delusion you have some sort of point, when all you do is piss and moan about made up issues and contradicting your own claims.

  4. #67844
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I've been very interested in Dragonriding and the perks that come along with it. Nice to hear that it's fun to use.
    ive legit just had a couple hours here and there every week where i just say fuck it and fly around for a couple hours mining.
    Not cause i need minerals, but because it is fun to fly around and look for unique mineral nodes.

  5. #67845
    Legendary! Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    Well, you are welcome to counter my points with arguments rather than general ad hominem statements.
    You got countered plenty in this thread in the past, but all you did was ignore it with made up statistics and asinine arguments. So I don't think anyone cares about convincing you any more. You joined a prestigious group of people who keep shitting on the game while thinking they stand for something, but all they do is annoy everyone else. Congratz.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  6. #67846
    Legendary! Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    Well, counter the statistics. Show they are made up. You did nothing of that.
    Because as I said, it was already done. And you ignored it. So no one gonna bother repeating it to a guy living in denial. Keep crusading and searching for "moral rot" in WoW game design.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  7. #67847
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    You got countered plenty in this thread in the past, but all you did was ignore it with made up statistics and asinine arguments. So I don't think anyone cares about convincing you any more. You joined a prestigious group of people who keep shitting on the game while thinking they stand for something, but all they do is annoy everyone else. Congratz.
    It is cantrip, don't bother.

  8. #67848
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    The problem here is Blizzard's "all or nothing" approach. There is no middle ground for them. Overdose of daily quests - no daily quests. Overdose of borrowed power / AP grind - no borrowed power / AP grind. Overdose of features - no / barely any features.

    If they would, after all these years, find a middle ground in their game design, people would definitely complain less. But they seem incapable of doing that and I don't know why.
    While I agree to some extent, I'm completely against Borrowed Power with daily grind attached to it, like Artifact Weapons/Azerite, a weekly locked system like Renown without covenants, soulbinds, and conduits, I can live with.

    Borrowed Power such as we had in Legion/Battle for Azeroth/Shadowlands did more harm than good to this game, and hope they never bring it back.
    Back to Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms!

  9. #67849
    Immortal Shadochi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luck4 View Post
    While I agree to some extent, I'm completely against Borrowed Power with daily grind attached to it, like Artifact Weapons/Azerite, a weekly locked system like Renown without covenants, soulbinds, and conduits, I can live with.

    Borrowed Power such as we had in Legion/Battle for Azeroth/Shadowlands did more harm than good to this game, and hope they never bring it back.
    IMO it doesn't matter if the Borrowed Power is attached to a grind like in those expansions. I am fine with borrowed power in terms of items sets, legendary, trinket and such, which is expected to be replaced, but the systems those expansions had could never be lasting and are more of a class ability testing ground that wont last probably, and on top of that 2 out of 3 had really bad endless grinds attached to them (SL being the one that didn't)3

    I don't want any form of BP except the stuff I mentioned which has been part of the game since the start.

    Wonder if they will keep the systems for gearing from SL season 3 (Create tier pieces) and season 4 (Dinar system). I suspect that while creating tier might carry over, the coin to purchase pieces wont because it was probably added because of a weekly rotation of raids.

  10. #67850
    The fact is, we already have plenty of content on this game if you do enjoy most of them like me:

    • Pet Battle alone is a huge time sink if taken seriously;
    • Mythic Plus alone can take all your free time;
    • Mythic Raiding Prep. and Progress another huge time sink;
    • PVP activities Arena/RBGs;
    • World Content for completionists trying to get every Transmog, Pet, Mount, or Toy, from Rares/Quests/Events;
    • Old Content for Former and New players: Transmogs and Mounts from older raids/dungeons;
    • Achievements;

    Literally, any activity that I listed above can take nearly all your free time if taken seriously, and unlike EVERY SINGLE ACTIVITY listed above, Borrowed Power adds nothing of value to your character since it's straight-up removed once the expansion end.

    Borrowed Power philosophy applied to other activities in-game would be the same as removing your mounts, CE/AOTC, achievements, pets, toys, and transmogs, that you got from a given expansion once it ends. Borrowed Power is not bad, it's TERRIBLE!
    Last edited by Luck4; 2022-09-20 at 07:24 PM.
    Back to Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms!

  11. #67851
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadochi View Post
    IMO it doesn't matter if the Borrowed Power is attached to a grind like in those expansions. I am fine with borrowed power in terms of items sets, legendary, trinket and such, which is expected to be replaced, but the systems those expansions had could never be lasting and are more of a class ability testing ground that wont last probably, and on top of that 2 out of 3 had really bad endless grinds attached to them (SL being the one that didn't)3

    I don't want any form of BP except the stuff I mentioned which has been part of the game since the start.

    Wonder if they will keep the systems for gearing from SL season 3 (Create tier pieces) and season 4 (Dinar system). I suspect that while creating tier might carry over, the coin to purchase pieces wont because it was probably added because of a weekly rotation of raids.
    Honestly I think borrowed power can work just fine as long as

    a) It's one system per expansion, not two or three
    b) There is no infinite grind

    Covenants were not problematic in Shadowlands because they were borrowed power, they were problematic because they were a hard choice. Like imagine a scenario where Legion had ONLY artifacts or BfA had ONLY essences. AP was still there but it has a weekly cap which rolled on to the next week and kept the catch up mechanics so you effectively never fell behind as long as you played a bit (a bit, not did multiple Maw runs per day). Or you could switch Covenants on day one in Shadowlands (which would have been such an interesting system since you'd actually have to work on Renown a bit to keep them all even instead of being done every Wednesday after 30mins of gametime).

  12. #67852
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    The problem here is Blizzard's "all or nothing" approach. There is no middle ground for them. Overdose of daily quests - no daily quests. Overdose of borrowed power / AP grind - no borrowed power / AP grind. Overdose of features - no / barely any features.

    If they would, after all these years, find a middle ground in their game design, people would definitely complain less. But they seem incapable of doing that and I don't know why.
    Nah the only problem here is you.
    The only good borrowed power is NO borrowed power.

  13. #67853
    People hating on borrowed power, yet praising and asking for tier set bonuses.

    Oh, the irony.

    MMO-C discussions can really get dumb so often.

  14. #67854
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Honestly I think borrowed power can work just fine as long as

    a) It's one system per expansion, not two or three
    b) There is no infinite grind
    The problem is that every Borrowed Power is designed around either endless or huge DAILY time sink, Shadowlands made us do Korthia and Maw every day for months to get conduits and sockets, leaving alone Torghast farm to craft legos, raising Renown for other covenants, and upgrading shards in 9.1. You just need a couple of minutes to remember a bit more about 9.0/9.1 and the borrowed power stuff rapidly stacks up.

    I'm a Mythic raider, and I remember back in 9.0/9.1 that I wanted to do plenty of optional activities, but I couldn't because I needed to waste 2 f-ing hours every single day doing maw/korthia.
    Back to Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms!

  15. #67855
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Nah the only problem here is you.
    The only good borrowed power is NO borrowed power.
    Tier sets are borrowed power. Strong trinkets or other items with specials are borrowed power. Heck all power is borrowed cause it will get reset next xpac when all your stats will be devalued after 5-6 new levels.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Luck4 View Post
    The problem is that every Borrowed Power is designed around either endless or huge DAILY time sink, Shadowlands made us do Korthia and Maw every day for months to get conduits and sockets, leaving alone Torghast farm to craft legos, raising Renown for other covenants, and upgrading shards in 9.1. You just need a couple of minutes to remember a bit more about 9.0/9.1 and the borrowed power stuff rapidly stacks up.

    I'm a Mythic raider, and I remember back in 9.0/9.1 that I wanted to do plenty of optional activities, but I couldn't because I needed to waste 2 f-ing hours every single day doing maw/korthia.
    Yup, pretty much. I have no idea why they thought that was a good design. You want to give players a reason to play your game but not repeat things so much that they burn out. I am not saying there should be no rewards for playing a lot but make them horizontal like e.g. doing 8+ M+ dungeons for the Vault giving you a third slot of loot. And that was the problem with the other xpacs. Legion had the grind very much be infinite and fairly rewarding for every rank. BfA just kept adding new systems you had to work with as did SL.

  16. #67856
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Tier sets are borrowed power. Strong trinkets or other items with specials are borrowed power. Heck all power is borrowed cause it will get reset next xpac when all your stats will be devalued after 5-6 new levels.
    Borrowed power isn't a problem in itself, the problem is more that these is a complete absence of non-borrowed power. The proper balance is giving players new exciting abilities every expansion & taking away the underused ones.

    Bringing back a ton of nostalgic abilities in Shadowlands was a bad idea. Right now it seems they're in the opposite mindset, we've already seen a ton of completely new dragonflight abilities disappear before it even comes out. Priest had a ton of new active abilities revealed & they're already gone. Just to bring back Shadow Covenant? Boo.

  17. #67857
    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    People hating on borrowed power, yet praising and asking for tier set bonuses.

    Oh, the irony.

    MMO-C discussions can really get dumb so often.
    It's not ironic. I don't need to level up a tier set every day, nor do I need to raise something else for it to work, I just need to drop it and it's over, something that other players can help you achieve if you're unlucky.

    Please don't compare tier sets to this garbage stuff that's been added since Legion, like seriously.
    Back to Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms!

  18. #67858
    Quote Originally Posted by Luck4 View Post
    It's not ironic. I don't need to level up a tier set every day, nor do I need to raise something else for it to work, I just need to drop it and it's over, something that other players can help you achieve if you're unlucky.

    Please don't compare tier sets to this garbage stuff that's been added since Legion, like seriously.
    Not only is that argument ironic, it's also laughable.

  19. #67859
    Herald of the Titans Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luck4 View Post
    It's not ironic. I don't need to level up a tier set every day, nor do I need to raise something else for it to work, I just need to drop it and it's over, something that other players can help you achieve if you're unlucky.

    Please don't compare tier sets to this garbage stuff that's been added since Legion, like seriously.
    Also tier sets still have a transmog that you keep even if they disable the set bonus.

  20. #67860
    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    Not only is that argument ironic, it's also laughable.
    Sure mate, come back once you get something better to say.

    Tier sets nowadays even have catch-up mechanics, so people don't even need to drop it after a couple of weeks, just an item to convert to a tier piece.

    Seriously, get better material.
    Back to Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms!

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