1. #67841
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    No sure what are you going at. If people complain about borrowed powers, they always mean post WoD features that require you to grind and grind on every character every patch. Yes, tier sets are also borrowed power, but no one considered them problematic here.
    Except none of them actually did. People mistook the possibility of continually working further on it for doing so being mandatory when the gains were marginal at best.

    If you were grinding any of them, you were just wasting your time.

  2. #67842
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Nah the only problem here is you.
    The only good borrowed power is NO borrowed power.
    I'm definitely not the problem here. If they would have done artifact weapons right, they could have been Dragonflight's talent trees. But they didn't. Artifact weapons were right there to be a great system carrying over into future expansion. Azerite and Covenants definitely not, but artifacts for sure.
    @Luck4 I think it really depends on implementation. See above.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  3. #67843
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Except none of them actually did. People mistook the possibility of continually working further on it for doing so being mandatory when the gains were marginal at best.

    If you were grinding any of them, you were just wasting your time.
    So like, when you got a fresh character in 8.3, getting proper Azerite armor, farming Essences and Corruption gear, all that was for marginal gains?
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  4. #67844
    Are we getting a build today?

  5. #67845
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    So like, when you got a fresh character in 8.3, getting proper Azerite armor, farming Essences and Corruption gear, all that was for marginal gains?
    No, but it also wasn't a huge grind nor in any way comparable to the scenario you laid out previously. In fact, that you could do so already disproves the claim that the grind was necessary, as otherwise you'd be stuck hopelessly behind. In reality, it took little more effort than gearing up in any other expansion.

  6. #67846
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    No, but it also wasn't a huge grind nor in any way comparable to the scenario you laid out previously. In fact, that you could do so already disproves the claim that the grind was necessary, as otherwise you'd be stuck hopelessly behind. In reality, it took little more effort than gearing up in any other expansion.
    Blood of the Enemy rank 3 hugely disagrees with that. BiS Essence for so many specs hidden behind 40k honour farm and with a huge power spike @ rank 3. Not to mention other Essences or Corruption gear RNG/waiting for a proper week to buy it (provided you got the currency you had to farm).
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2022-09-20 at 08:32 PM.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  7. #67847
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    I'm definitely not the problem here. If they would have done artifact weapons right, they could have been Dragonflight's talent trees. But they didn't. Artifact weapons were right there to be a great system carrying over into future expansion. Azerite and Covenants definitely not, but artifacts for sure.
    @Luck4 I think it really depends on implementation. See above.
    Artifacts were pretty shit as far as trees go.

    Sure you’d pick your way through them early on but after a couple weeks you just had the full thing filled out and there was no choice or change in play style at all other then relics which did next to nothing.

    Visually they were cool but as far as function goes they were worthless.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  8. #67848
    Quote Originally Posted by Catastrophy349 View Post
    I stopped commenting a long time ago. It's more fun just reading through all of these.
    Honestly it's making the wait for a release date or the pre-patch date more bearable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Greyscale View Post
    But then again, in the story, we're pretty brutal murder machines and not really "strategical assets". Just send us in and we'll murder everything in our way!
    So I guess the solution here is simple - we'll murder everyone.

  9. #67849
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Blood of the Enemy rank 3 hugely disagrees with that. BiS Essence for so many specs hidden behind 40k honour farm and with a huge power spike @ rank 3. Not to mention other Essences or Corruption gear RNG/waiting for a proper week to buy it (provided you got the currency you had to farm).
    For a few specs. Not exactly all that useful for ranged. And this is still for the most part not a big grind.

  10. #67850
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Artifacts were pretty shit as far as trees go.

    Sure you’d pick your way through them early on but after a couple weeks you just had the full thing filled out and there was no choice or change in play style at all other then relics which did next to nothing.

    Visually they were cool but as far as function goes they were worthless.
    Worthless? They altered the playstyle as much as the new talent trees do, if not more lol. And as I said, if they would have done them right, they could have been a thing to stay for years, an alternative progression system. Addind a few nodes each content patch and adding a complete new region or layout with each expansion.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  11. #67851
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Musta View Post
    Are we getting a build today?
    wednesday.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

  12. #67852
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Worthless? They altered the playstyle as much as the new talent trees do, if not more lol. And as I said, if they would have done them right, they could have been a thing to stay for years, an alternative progression system. Addind a few nodes each content patch and adding a complete new region or layout with each expansion.
    They didn't really "alter" playstyles since they were the same for every user of the spec. Expanded may work, but playstyles didn't vary between users of a spec much.

    The new talent trees at least theoretically allow for actual variation since you can never have all talents. In practice, the vast majority will likely use pre-built setups, switching by situation if they have half a clue.

  13. #67853
    Remember that new talents are not only for endgame, but leveling as well. Even if some lower talents are 'mandatory' because you must spend points on them at some point, they still exist to bring back this feeling of geting new point to spend every level.

  14. #67854
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Worthless? They altered the playstyle as much as the new talent trees do, if not more lol. And as I said, if they would have done them right, they could have been a thing to stay for years, an alternative progression system. Addind a few nodes each content patch and adding a complete new region or layout with each expansion.
    No, they did not alter play style more than DF talents. Most of the talents were flat dmg increase and every spec at the end of Season 1 had all talents taken, so there was zero variety. Meanwhile, new talents have choices AND combine powers from 3 + expansions in a way we never had before. Not sure what's your fascination with Artifacts here, when it was a literally "fill it up and forget" thing.
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2022-09-20 at 09:18 PM.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  15. #67855
    Because it feels nice to fill stuff up.

    A lot of people will stop playing the game because they think they hated filling stuff up, but secretly, that was the only reason they played the game.

  16. #67856
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Worthless? They altered the playstyle as much as the new talent trees do, if not more lol. And as I said, if they would have done them right, they could have been a thing to stay for years, an alternative progression system. Addind a few nodes each content patch and adding a complete new region or layout with each expansion.
    They didn't alter the playstyle at all they were the core playstyle and there was no variation in them once you filled out the tree, they were functionally no different then you just getting a couple of ability's or passives while lvling like in wod but instead you had to grind for a week or two at max.

    and just adding a couple of crappy nodes that you need to grind for like they did in legion patches is awful design.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  17. #67857
    The rpg side of artifacts was good. In terms of actual gameplay? They were dogshit. They didn't alter the playstyle of a class, just made it playable. Many classes straight up didn't work without certain traits

  18. #67858
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    ZM had no gearing progression, as you do not need gear to play ZM. Progression would be if you needed gear from ZM to play a higher level of ZM content. You can play ZM literally in greens and need no gear to master or even play it.

    Once again, it is not about gear for the sake of gear, but about getting gear to play higher levels of your gameplay. Gear needs a use. Welfare epics have no use.
    Gear in ZM had multiple levels unlocked by playing ZM
    The more gear you had the more enemies you could defeat yourself

    But please tell me how a system that does the same as instanced group gear progression isn't gear progression because you don't like it

  19. #67859
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    Because it feels nice to fill stuff up.

    A lot of people will stop playing the game because they think they hated filling stuff up, but secretly, that was the only reason they played the game.
    Pretty much. A lot of people want to be told what to do and giving clear daily tasks achieves that

  20. #67860
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    I just replied to another comment. That's all I did before y'all jumped on me and tried to downplay any criticism. By the way:

    1. Dragonriding is stolen from Guild Wars 2 (fact).
    2. Evokers aren't content, they're a feature (fact).
    And gw2 stole it from other games....

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