1. #68141
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    Shout outs to the people on social media who said nothing all alpha/beta but chimed in to say Blizzard sucks and the game is dead because they aren't working on talent trees anymore.
    One does not need to be involved in the process to see that the end result is lacking.
    They're just voicing their opinion like all others.

    Also how would you know that a significant portion hasn't spoken out? Did you somehow acquire a comprehensive overview of the feedback Blizzard received?
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
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    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  2. #68142
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    I don't think these people were really interested in giving any form of feedback. It was mostly to trash Blizzard.
    I imagine that was meant sarcastically. They didn't say anything for months, and now they're suddenly all coming out of the woodwork to complain about a development necessity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    One does not need to be involved in the process to see that the end result is lacking.
    They're just voicing their opinion like all others.
    They had several weeks to voice their opinion when Blizzard still had opportunity to do something about it. No, these people just want to complain for the sake of complaining. They're not interested in anything being fixed or even worked on.

  3. #68143
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    I imagine that was meant sarcastically. They didn't say anything for months, and now they're suddenly all coming out of the woodwork to complain about a development necessity.

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    They had several weeks to voice their opinion when Blizzard still had opportunity to do something about it. No, these people just want to complain for the sake of complaining. They're not interested in anything being fixed or even worked on.
    I know, my question was: How do you know they did not do that as well?
    Blizzard has been known to ignore feedback, whether given privately or publicly; it's hardly unthinkable these are the ignored ones.

    Also how does it matter? A lacking product is a lacking product, doesn't matter if i say so early or later, my judgement is not somehow disingenious because of your stiff development schedule.
    That schedule is quite irrelevant to any judgements made in fact, and as such one needs to keep a degree of flexibility. Not doing so is not a mistake on the part of the judge, but on the part of the judged.
    Last edited by loras; 2022-09-25 at 01:43 PM.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  4. #68144
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    I know, my question was: How do you know they did not do that as well?
    Blizzard has been known to ignore feedback, whether given privately or publicly; it's hardly unthinkable these are the ignored ones.
    Giving the benefit of the doubt to keyboard warriors is just lazy arguing. They had plenty of time to say stuff for months.
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  5. #68145
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Giving the benefit of the doubt to keyboard warriors is just lazy arguing. They had plenty of time to say stuff for months.
    ...Are you not a keyboard warrior as well?
    What would distinguish you from them?
    If i were to not give you the benefit of the doubt i would think you simply seek excuses to dismiss fair criticism on a product you are, for whatever reason, emotionally invested in already.

    They deserve the benefit of the doubt as much as you do.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  6. #68146
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    I know, my question was: How do you know they did not do that as well?
    Given that they complain on public fora, what reason do we have to assume they did or even had the capability of doing so without our notice?

    That schedule is quite irrelevant to any judgements made in fact, and as such one needs to keep a degree of flexibility.
    What good is a content-free complaint at a time where it can no longer be acted on? All they're doing is wasting our time.

  7. #68147
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Given that they complain on public fora, what reason do we have to assume they did or even had the capability of doing so without our notice?



    What good is a content-free complaint at a time where it can no longer be acted on? All they're doing is wasting our time.
    One tends to complain in private before going public, it's easier and more effective that way. Why would anyone take the opposing route?

    -
    Well it does signify to the makers of the game that they should expect either to change the stiff schedule or to expect the consequences of (what some believe to be) an inferior/incomplete product.

    It may seem a bit harsh, but the woes of developers are of no concern to the judges, in this case the customers.
    It's good for the devs to have some indication of what they can expect, it allows them to make informed decisions.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  8. #68148
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    One tends to complain in private before going public, it's easier and more effective that way. Why would anyone take the opposing route?
    A sane, rational person would do that. I'm not convinced there's very many of those around.

    But giving the complainants to much credit seems to be a common thread with you. There's no judges here. Just a bunch of loudmouths yelling. They likely don't even know first- or secondhand what the state of the talents is.

  9. #68149
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    A sane, rational person would do that. I'm not convinced there's very many of those around.

    But giving the complainants to much credit seems to be a common thread with you. There's no judges here. Just a bunch of loudmouths yelling. They likely don't even know first- or secondhand what the state of the talents is.
    I think that may be an error on your part.
    You might have a ...colored idea of what ratio and sanity entail.
    One clear mark of a developed mind is being being able to entertain thoughts and views without accepting them though, to see the difference between the rational structures and the coloration, whether that be religious, ideological, emotional or whatever else.

    And i think that even just this post of yours shows that you have issues with at least the emotional coloration, if not much more.

    As to the judges: All those who comment on such matters are definitively part of the judges; We all are the potential customers for this particular product, none of us speaks for the collective in any meaningful sense so it would be foolish to attempt to dismiss any opinions as being less genuine or meaningful than any other.

    Of course objective substance still exists, but you'll note that we are strictly discussing the relevance of stated opinions here.
    (objective substance in the case of the talent system might be akin to that neat analysis of the node structures of the talent system some forumdweller here made, though it's a different question whether such an analysis is actually useful in regards to making or judging a good product)
    Last edited by loras; 2022-09-25 at 02:27 PM.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  10. #68150
    So classic Wrath releases soon
    And people were complaining that DF was too close to it....I can kinda understand raid testing is too close but come on its a few hours twice a week

  11. #68151
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    I am guessing as soon as you unlock Dragon riding that probably your best option is to start collecting the glyphs. I do wonder what the optimal path might be. A few of them definitely would take a while to get like Thaldrazsus Apex
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2022-09-25 at 05:23 PM.

  12. #68152
    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Man View Post
    So classic Wrath releases soon
    And people were complaining that DF was too close to it....I can kinda understand raid testing is too close but come on its a few hours twice a week
    Honestly i feel like Blizzard should have just tried out not testing the new raid at all, or at least just on NM or HC to ensure no game breaking bugs. Just tune it low with the expectation that the difficulty should come from having to learn the fight, not from having to do everything perfectly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I am guessing as soon as you unlock Dragon riding that probably your best option is to start collecting the glyphs. I do wonder what the optimal path might be. A few of them definitely would take a while to get like Thaldrazsus Apex
    Yeah it's a bit weird how it all works out. I am all for not making it timegated, but not even having it level gated feels like it's kinda undermining the entire premise of getting better at it.

    Not really tested it myself though, so might be wrong. Though from what I hear most, if not all the glyphs are easy to get, so there probably isn't going to be a sense that you become able to get to new places either.
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  13. #68153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Yeah it's a bit weird how it all works out. I am all for not making it timegated, but not even having it level gated feels like it's kinda undermining the entire premise of getting better at it.

    Not really tested it myself though, so might be wrong. Though from what I hear most, if not all the glyphs are easy to get, so there probably isn't going to be a sense that you become able to get to new places either.
    There are a few you are probably better off leaving until you are almost done I guess
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2022-09-25 at 06:15 PM.

  14. #68154
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Eh, i'd say the bigger issue is that it doesn't really have a place in the story. WoW isn't about personal relationships. Its okay if characters just happen to be in a relationship, but putting it in the forefront like this is rather overdoing it and thus feels forced.
    We have avenged tons of wives and family’s, helps dragons hook up with spirit healers, went to thralls wedding, delivered love letters and ton more of other relationship related things, not to mention the ton of lore about illidan Tyranda and Malf’s live triangle or Jiana and arthas.

    A pretty big chuck of wow has been about personal relationships in one way or another since atleast classic.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  15. #68155
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Honestly i feel like Blizzard should have just tried out not testing the new raid at all, or at least just on NM or HC to ensure no game breaking bugs. Just tune it low with the expectation that the difficulty should come from having to learn the fight, not from having to do everything perfectly.

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    so they said they arent going to tune around the world top players anymore im guessing they just want the mythic stuff to work

  16. #68156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    We have avenged tons of wives and family’s, helps dragons hook up with spirit healers, went to thralls wedding, delivered love letters and ton more of other relationship related things, not to mention the ton of lore about illidan Tyranda and Malf’s live triangle or Jiana and arthas.

    A pretty big chuck of wow has been about personal relationships in one way or another since atleast classic.
    It just sticks to people more when it's a queer couple. To be fair, I wish games could figure a way to represent us without needing a couple to affirm that someone is queer or just relegating it to gossip text but hey, entertainment forms much better suited for this still fail every day.\

    I also just found a quest up a broken tower accessible only with flight that led me to a tuskar that then requires THREE different dungeon runs to complete. And I somehow am sure it will just result in some toy.

  17. #68157
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    We have avenged tons of wives and family’s, helps dragons hook up with spirit healers, went to thralls wedding, delivered love letters and ton more of other relationship related things, not to mention the ton of lore about illidan Tyranda and Malf’s live triangle or Jiana and arthas.

    A pretty big chuck of wow has been about personal relationships in one way or another since atleast classic.
    You're way overstating both how common those are and the general impact. Illidan/Tyrande/Malfurion was a side note at best, always overshadowed by bigger issues while Jaina's relationships have little to no impact on anything and may as well not have happened for all the difference it makes.
    Thrall's wedding had some importance, but who he got married to did not.
    Azuregos and the Spirit Healer was little more than a joke.

    And that's what, 4 relationships in 18 years of story?

  18. #68158
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    You're way overstating both how common those are and the general impact. Illidan/Tyrande/Malfurion was a side note at best, always overshadowed by bigger issues while Jaina's relationships have little to no impact on anything and may as well not have happened for all the difference it makes.
    Thrall's wedding had some importance, but who he got married to did not.
    Azuregos and the Spirit Healer was little more than a joke.

    And that's what, 4 relationships in 18 years of story?
    BfA had a marriage be an important plot point in the Drustvar storyline. Both Lucille having her marriage ruined, and her mother becoming a witch because her husband was dying.
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  19. #68159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    BfA had a marriage be an important plot point in the Drustvar storyline. Both Lucille having her marriage ruined, and her mother becoming a witch because her husband was dying.
    Wouldn't really call them important. Nothing would change in the story of the zone if Lord W wasn't sick and Lady W was just power hungry. Same with going to the past and seeing failed wedding.
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  20. #68160
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Wouldn't really call them important. Nothing would change in the story of the zone if Lord W wasn't sick and Lady W was just power hungry. Same with going to the past and seeing failed wedding.
    Well yeah, but that is true for loads of weddings in stories. Point is that Drustvar was a story where there was a wedding that was given prominence, and a marriage that was also given prominence.
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