1. #68261
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Really the End Time dungeons should have been the raid to begin with.
    Fight Murozond, Azshara, Mannoroth, and Archbishop Benedictus in the most epic boss battle that patch had. Then skip all the filler bosses in Dragon Soul and go straight to the juicy stuff like Ultraxion and Deathwing.
    I mean if they hadn't been lazy I think the two C'thraxxi generals could have been great fights. Imo the encounters themselves were entertaining early raid bosses (in this version they'd be mid raid). The problem was the encounter space (especially with the bouncing ball dude, that room was TOO big especially on 10man). Nothing saves the first and fourth boss or the Madness encounter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I feel like this might be why they stopped doing final raid dungeons. You cannot use the good ideas for dungeons, which inevitably means you have to use only the more boring discarded concepts instead.

    The ICC dungeons are nice and all. But who really remembers most of those bosses at all? Bronjahm is only interesting because of the music that plays, and beyond that you really only have Tyrannus and the Lich King encounter. The rest is basically all filler.
    You don't remember Falric and Marwyn? The voice lines alone make them very memorable. Honestly no one framed Arthas for story purposes better in the entire expac than those two and after the dungeon I ended up wishing they had shown up a lot more as Arthas left and right hands instead of using Arthas constantly.

  2. #68262
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathanyel View Post
    Noooot really. It is what's called an educated guess. Everything repeats over time, and we're not likely to get new kinds of major threats (I expect that the First Ones or whatever Zovaal was afraid of remain a background element, sometimes hinted at, maybe used in the very final expansion story) so the major themes are set.

    A Death theme for 9.0 was predictable and hinted at by having Bwonsamdi and the Drust in BfA, along with Sylvanas causing an unnecessary global war = countless deaths.
    Let's not forget that a lot of people expected the Shadowlands at the end of BfA. What they got completely wrong was the story, not the setting.

  3. #68263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    If you think about it, elementals are the most natural thing in the mortal realm. Every planet has them and as long as nothing external throws them out of balance, they are in peace with each other. Just look at Draenor.
    Then look at Azeroth. The World Soul pretty much placed the elementals of the planet in immense distress by taking away all the Spirit, then the Old Gods came and enslaved them and then the Titans came and not only imprisoned them but bound their souls to an artificial prison plane so they couldn't really escape. The way elementals see it, the Titans found them abused and then abused them even more.

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    Agreed on most accounts. Made a post elsewhere that I think they should really move to making raid tiers with 2-3 raids and fewer bosses in them to cut down on encounters that by lore or theme are just filler. And Dragonflight specifically has so many massive locations that could be used as a raid backdrop (and several of the dungeons are pretty much assets already available for exploration with maybe a few extra rooms).

    I don't particularly agree on Dungeon wings. I do however think that if a raid has a completely unique set of assets it should come with another type of content that duplicates them (could be a dungeon, could be something else like a Visions things). Especially in some cases. I think BfA pacing would have been better with Mechagon in 8.1 (and the dungeon wings released in 8.2 at M+) and then give a naga themed dungeon. Those assets were gorgeous and just underused; we should have had an underwater dungeon there (not working on the z-axis, just have us stay grounded throughout).

    And I hope we either get TWO megadungeons or 1 megadungeon and two normal ones. Adding 3-4 more dungeons will let them add even more variety to the rotating seasons (and then we can have a final season with all Dragonflight dungeons).
    Yeah, I was just suggesting ways to get more out of what is already there. As you mentioned I Nazjatar is one of the biggest waste of assets in terms of it just being used for the raid and thats it. This goes especially for mid-tier dungeons where theme fatigue isn't an issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    But both the copy paste raids and the dungeon wings felt super cheap, although I guess it's better than nothing. But honestly, you would have had even more Sepulcher fatigue if they added 3 (!) copy paste dungeons on top. Also I get Trial of the Crusader flashbacks .... so no .... I will take unique dungeons over copy paste stuff, even if it means we get less stuff.
    I might've gone a bit over on the numbers, maybe 2 per theme at max and that is where the assets they already have allow that (Like Thorghast for example they have a distinct indoors and outdoors set of assets from the wings). But obviously I didn't mean a 1:1 copy for Sepulcher like Trial was as the rooms are used for raid, just shifting the same rooms around. And sepulcher I see could at most also be 1 dungeon.

    And about it feeling cheap, that is kinda my point. If they don't have the time or whatever to do a unique 1-2 boss raid, then just reuse the open world, tho if done right IMO it wouldn't feel to cheap.

    Also I have been playing SL a lot, and haven't heard anyone complain of Sepulcher theme fatigue, is this really a thing? I know that usually happens is the tier drags on for a year or if it was a similar theme as in previous patches (Ogres going for a long time in MOP and then WoD). But the first ones architecture seemed pretty new.

  4. #68264
    Anyway, now that WotLK Classic is released, when do you think we'll get the Dragonflight release date?
    But your duty to Azeroth is not yet complete. More is demanded of you... a price the living cannot pay.

  5. #68265
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathanyel View Post
    Anyway, now that WotLK Classic is released, when do you think we'll get the Dragonflight release date?
    I don't think it'll be too long, IF the pre patch really is out on 25th October then they'll want to announce it fairly soon
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  6. #68266
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avikur View Post
    I don't think it'll be too long, IF the pre patch really is out on 25th October then they'll want to announce it fairly soon
    They won't announce anything before the end of season warning and actual confirmed date will only come a few days earlier.

  7. #68267
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    They won't announce anything before the end of season warning and actual confirmed date will only come a few days earlier.
    They'll announce the expansion release date soon, from that we'll have a rough idea of pre patch date give or take a few weeks
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  8. #68268
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadochi View Post
    I still think they should utilize assets they create newly for an expansion/patch better.

    They did this a bit in BfA (Crucible of the Storm) and Legion (Trial of Valor) but none in SL. And even BfA and Legion weren't really doing this as they could.

    Just release more 1-2boss raids (in .5 patches for example) using assets you already have in the open world, just creating an encounter. And maybe even do a pre-season at expansion start where there are maybe 3-4 bosses spread over a few mini raids tying up some plotlines in zones or moving cool scenes to them (my example always is how Ysera's death would've been much more epic in a 1 boss raid, they just needed to make her mechanics work for a group). Heck it can just have N and HC difficulty where HC drops equivalent to Normal of first season or maybe slightly lower. Nobody will be able to fully gear from this but a few pieces are nice and good variety.
    And the ones I suggest in .5 patches maybe drop loot equivalent to last few bosses of that tier on same difficulty or like +3/4, or just have like effects or something. Like how putting an ending to SL leveling zone stories could be cool via a 1-2 boss raid each.

    And then for dungeons, I have no idea why they ever stopped doing dungeon wings. Its a great way to create a couple dungeons without making much assets. When I initially saw 9.1 I was hoping we would be getting 2-3 dungeon wings based on torghast assets, with bosses from torghast as bosses there. Same again with ZM and sepulcher themed ones. Not all raids I guess would work perfectly with wings, but a lot can. Especially from the torghast assets they wouldn't need to create rooms or maps since they have them already a bunch (and honestly in 6 different styles...).

    Hopefully DF won't stick to the template of BfA and SL of having a patch with raid and mega dungeon and then no other dungeons added. I would hope that by the time S3 comes to DF and we have went through all 8 DF dungeons in M+ but by then there were 4 more added in DF that are S3 M+ (like 2 pataches with 2 dungeons or 2 dungeons and 1 megadung split up). I also don't just want it to be just 3 or 4 long raids for the expansion, and after the first patch the leveling zones are no longer relevant. But somehow as much as I have faith in DF I'm not sure if this is gonna happen and they will probably just follow the template
    Very true 100% agree. Sick of having so few dungeons and raids while all the assets are there. Even most boss mechanics nowadays are just slight variations of already existing ones. The sheer lack of content in SL really showed in comparison to Legion.

  9. #68269
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arai View Post
    Even most boss mechanics nowadays are just slight variations of already existing ones.
    I think that's unfair. Beyond the fact that the backlog of existing mechanics in a game this old is insane, they constantly add new systems and mechanics in dungeons and raids.

  10. #68270
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I think that's unfair. Beyond the fact that the backlog of existing mechanics in a game this old is insane, they constantly add new systems and mechanics in dungeons and raids.
    This definitely, and I always find that each expansion has a couple new unique mechanics to its raids or dungeons that then later appear more often in future.
    Example being I think the sword slice mechanic (cant remember exact name) on Denathrius appeared there first time and then a variation of it was used on the Nine.

    But TBH with how old the game is im still surprised that they can come up with unique feeling encounters, since the boss isn't just about its abilities but also the room it is placed in

  11. #68271
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I think that's unfair. Beyond the fact that the backlog of existing mechanics in a game this old is insane, they constantly add new systems and mechanics in dungeons and raids.
    Who cares im not gonna go through all bosses and make examples. They have a ton of mechanics from old bosses they could use to tinker a few bosses together every patch. There is no reason the amount of content we get is this low. They already use all those old mechanics for quest mobs and rares.

  12. #68272
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathanyel View Post
    Anyway, now that WotLK Classic is released, when do you think we'll get the Dragonflight release date?
    Assuming it's Oct 25th/Nov 28th I think full schedule (pre-patch, event/Evoker early access, launch, season 1) will be revealed within 3 weeks. Now is best time, hype for WoTLK is not that huge, but still more people are focused on WoW news this week.

  13. #68273
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    You don't remember Falric and Marwyn? The voice lines alone make them very memorable. Honestly no one framed Arthas for story purposes better in the entire expac than those two and after the dungeon I ended up wishing they had shown up a lot more as Arthas left and right hands instead of using Arthas constantly.
    Some of the raid dungeon bosses are good, but seemingly the developers struggle with making that many unique boss concepts and areas.

    Either we have an ICC situation where the dungeons are leftover assets and cutting room raid bosses.
    Or we have the End Time situation, where the good ideas are used up by the dungeons and the raid is severely lacking.

    The concept of mega-dungeons seem to work much better. Allowing the developers to use a good idea that isn't quite right for a raid, without having to skimp on detail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadochi View Post
    This definitely, and I always find that each expansion has a couple new unique mechanics to its raids or dungeons that then later appear more often in future.
    Example being I think the sword slice mechanic (cant remember exact name) on Denathrius appeared there first time and then a variation of it was used on the Nine.

    But TBH with how old the game is im still surprised that they can come up with unique feeling encounters, since the boss isn't just about its abilities but also the room it is placed in
    Unique bosses using the actual arena is a bit of a rarity though. Stuff like Halondrus or G'huun is the kind of encounter that players really remember.
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  14. #68274
    Herald of the Titans Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Some of the raid dungeon bosses are good, but seemingly the developers struggle with making that many unique boss concepts and areas.

    Either we have an ICC situation where the dungeons are leftover assets and cutting room raid bosses.
    Or we have the End Time situation, where the good ideas are used up by the dungeons and the raid is severely lacking.

    The concept of mega-dungeons seem to work much better. Allowing the developers to use a good idea that isn't quite right for a raid, without having to skimp on detail.

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    Unique bosses using the actual arena is a bit of a rarity though. Stuff like Halondrus or G'huun is the kind of encounter that players really remember.
    I would love to forget about both tbh ... horrible encounters, especially Halondrus Mythic pre-nerf.

    *shudders*

  15. #68275
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    Assuming it's Oct 25th/Nov 28th I think full schedule (pre-patch, event/Evoker early access, launch, season 1) will be revealed within 3 weeks. Now is best time, hype for WoTLK is not that huge, but still more people are focused on WoW news this week.
    Idk...my buddy was in a almost 5k queue to be able to play yesterday. This wasn't one of the more popular servers either. I think there is definitely some nostalgia hype or hype from players who were never able to experience it when it came out originally.

  16. #68276
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Some of the raid dungeon bosses are good, but seemingly the developers struggle with making that many unique boss concepts and areas.

    Either we have an ICC situation where the dungeons are leftover assets and cutting room raid bosses.
    Or we have the End Time situation, where the good ideas are used up by the dungeons and the raid is severely lacking.

    The concept of mega-dungeons seem to work much better. Allowing the developers to use a good idea that isn't quite right for a raid, without having to skimp on detail.

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    Unique bosses using the actual arena is a bit of a rarity though. Stuff like Halondrus or G'huun is the kind of encounter that players really remember.
    Didn't raid Halondrus but we killed G'Huun once and went 'fuck that, we're never coming back' so it was memorable, just not in the way you would want it to be.
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  17. #68277
    So, with WotLK Classic launch today, I expect the release date announcement towards the end of the week or next week. They basically can't wait any longer as the pre patch has to hit within the next 4 weeks. It's already long overdue to tell us the launch date.
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  18. #68278
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    Assuming it's Oct 25th/Nov 28th I think full schedule (pre-patch, event/Evoker early access, launch, season 1) will be revealed within 3 weeks. Now is best time, hype for WoTLK is not that huge, but still more people are focused on WoW news this week.
    So do we think it’ll be like Legion where the early access to Evokers will be staggered and not live when pre patch launches? In Legion DH’s came 3 weeks into pre patch

    https://www.wowhead.com/guide=7.0.3-pre-patch
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  19. #68279
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Yeah I think if we were going to mention boss encounters with dynamic use of the room, we would not go with G'huun, we'd go with BRF as a whole (Hans and Franz, Thogar, Blackhand) or for something recent maybe Painsmith.

  20. #68280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Some of the raid dungeon bosses are good, but seemingly the developers struggle with making that many unique boss concepts and areas.

    Either we have an ICC situation where the dungeons are leftover assets and cutting room raid bosses.
    Or we have the End Time situation, where the good ideas are used up by the dungeons and the raid is severely lacking.

    The concept of mega-dungeons seem to work much better. Allowing the developers to use a good idea that isn't quite right for a raid, without having to skimp on detail.

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    Unique bosses using the actual arena is a bit of a rarity though. Stuff like Halondrus or G'huun is the kind of encounter that players really remember.
    Maybe not to that extent, but it happens quite often. Shriekwing, Sludgefist and Lady Inerva in Nathria have interaction with the environment, Painsmith in SoD and such. The ones you mentioned are just walking that is the interaction (granted I don't have M experience with that tier), and carapace is similar. but what I'm saying is that it isn't such a rarity to integrate the environment to some extent and make the boss fight different.
    Best to do is think, "how would this boss be different if it was just on a flat platform? What mechanics would be missing?". Sure there are plenty of bosses like that (Nerzhul, Anduin, Denathrius, and so on) but there has been also a lot where the mechanics don't just come from the mobs in the encounter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Yeah I think if we were going to mention boss encounters with dynamic use of the room, we would not go with G'huun, we'd go with BRF as a whole (Hans and Franz, Thogar, Blackhand) or for something recent maybe Painsmith.
    Yeah as i mentioned in my reply above the variety of room interactions can be answered in one question, how much does the fight change if it was in a flat platform without objects, just mobs?
    And each tier in SL had at least a few bosses that have interaction

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