Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Nyel]

I can't even tell if it's laziness at this point or if they just forgot and were flippant about it not being a real concern.

Based on the state of Evoker in general (hint: bad) I wouldn't be surprised about this. They are completely out of touch in regards of Dracthyr and Evoker feedback. Their devs must live in an echo chamber, because they are basically ignoring every valuable feedback.

[Gorsameth]

Based on the state of Evoker in general (hint: bad) I wouldn't be surprised about this. They are completely out of touch in regards of Dracthyr and Evoker feedback. Their devs must live in an echo chamber, because they are basically ignoring every valuable feedback.

I think its not so much that they are out of touch but more a problem of time.

By the time the public got to see the Dracthyr they were to committed to redesign the model. So the feedback doesn't matter, there is no time to scrap it and start over.

Same with the Evoker, they don't have time to redesign the class and fix the fundamental problems so they can either keep its identity, flawed tho it may be, and work with that or scrap it and go for the most bland thing ever. Which in their opinion is a bigger mistake.

Its a general problem with game development. By the time players get to see anything most of it is already set in stone and feedback doesn't actually do anything.

[Nyel]

I think its not so much that they are out of touch but more a problem of time.

By the time the public got to see the Dracthyr they were to committed to redesign the model. So the feedback doesn't matter, there is no time to scrap it and start over.

Same with the Evoker, they don't have time to redesign the class and fix the fundamental problems so they can either keep its identity, flawed tho it may be, and work with that or scrap it and go for the most bland thing ever. Which in their opinion is a bigger mistake.

Its a general problem with game development. By the time players get to see anything most of it is already set in stone and feedback doesn't actually do anything.

What's surprising here is how they just completely changed Balance Druid within a few months. They went from trash tier talent trees to one of the best. So they can do it. But with Evoker they just seem to not care? Devastation hasn't gotten an update in months now, Evoker talent trees are still a mess and the entire class is basically the anti-thesis of the raid and encounter design in Dragonflight as of now. Devastation Evoker in PvP is so incredibly bad and a pure meme spec (oneshot enemy or go home) with so many issues, it's like none of the devs have ever played this class for real and just played them on paper.

[Makorus]

I feel like the Fire Breath change did help Devokers a hell of a lot, changed the whole dynamic of the talent tree and actually helped turn atleast one of the Empower abilities into what it should have been: Something that has more thought to it than just "I fill bar to full!", and it rewards good gameplay with Everburning Flame (I think that's what it is called?).

It might seem like an inconsequential change, but it opened the talent tree up a whole lot.

It's not amazing yet, but it is actually quite enjoyable now, and they have their niche (Deleting adds/2 Target Cleave).

[Alanar]

Because as I said right above, that's how WoWHead chose to present Dracthyr even though there are vastly better options. It's the equivalent of showing tier for other classes on diapergnomes.

I mean wowhead shows you how the tier sets look.. not how all differnt armor (costumization) able to fill it up, thats not the point.

But the tier set itselfs looks very bad on the dracthyr I agree.

[Dracullus]

7 weeks, I'm starting to feel hype. Although this time I don't want to fuck up my sleep schedule, I'll celebrate launch moment on midnight and start leveling on the morning. Even if you don't want to stay behind, 'mandatory' for first week are only leveling+8xM0 clear.

[Gloriandus]

Couple of weeks or so left until pre-patch; still hopeful more refinements are made to the revamped UI and that what we currently have is the "ship it" version. One in particular -- minimal option for unitframes and either integrated or detachable class/spec power.

[Revamp Man]

The beta testers gave me a he'll of a laugh yesterday
Tons of groups for m+ but most didn't even use affixes or only fort

Storming really messed people up
Too much ptsd

[exochaft]

The beta testers gave me a he'll of a laugh yesterday
Tons of groups for m+ but most didn't even use affixes or only fort

Storming really messed people up
Too much ptsd

To be fair... a lot of people in the beta aren't there for testing in the sense Blizz wants, so when it comes to M+ they just want to learn the dungeon(s) ahead of time in terms of pathing and mob count. Some of the more hardcore people will start messing with the mechanics, while others will just try it once but never use it again. Granted I'm not actively testing Dragonflight right now despite having access to the beta, this is generally how it's been in the past.

I suppose you can derive meaning from this behavior for a meta argument about how people generally don't like affixes or, if given the option, will take the path of least resistance. Personally I feel this is true in general, which is why I sometimes find it odd the decisions Blizz makes when increasing the difficulty or making something more arduous than it needs to be because it'll supposedly cause players to engage more in certain content or system. Heck, even devs in the past knew that players will tend to take the path of least resistance and that there's a tenuous balance between convenience and adversity.

[Makabreska]

To be fair... a lot of people in the beta aren't there for testing in the sense Blizz wants, so when it comes to M+ they just want to learn the dungeon(s) ahead of time in terms of pathing and mob count. Some of the more hardcore people will start messing with the mechanics, while others will just try it once but never use it again. Granted I'm not actively testing Dragonflight right now despite having access to the beta, this is generally how it's been in the past.

I mean, you can do both at the same time perfectly fine.

[gcsmith]

I mean, you can do both at the same time perfectly fine.

Also, more testing and feedback of the storm mechanic means they might change it. Since they said the affix is potentially changeable.

[Makabreska]

Also, more testing and feedback of the storm mechanic means they might change it. Since they said the affix is potentially changeable.

Affix is meh. Graphics are overwhelming, it's a simple move-out on a timer, it's annoying to melee and it doesn't seem to provide any boon.

[Gorsameth]

I suppose you can derive meaning from this behavior for a meta argument about how people generally don't like affixes or, if given the option, will take the path of least resistance. Personally I feel this is true in general, which is why I sometimes find it odd the decisions Blizz makes when increasing the difficulty or making something more arduous than it needs to be because it'll supposedly cause players to engage more in certain content or system. Heck, even devs in the past knew that players will tend to take the path of least resistance and that there's a tenuous balance between convenience and adversity.

I'm pretty sure Blizzard by now knows that making something harder doesn't drive engagement. But they felt (imo rightfully) that they needed to balance the difficulty to gear gap between M+ and Raids.

And that this change will piss off a lot of M+ players who were used to getting near the best gear for to little effort is something they simply accept.

[Koollan]

I'm pretty sure Blizzard by now knows that making something harder doesn't drive engagement. But they felt (imo rightfully) that they needed to balance the difficulty to gear gap between M+ and Raids.

And that this change will piss off a lot of M+ players who were used to getting near the best gear for to little effort is something they simply accept.

I do mostly M+ and personally welcome any added challenge. It honestly pissed me off how piss-easy it was to do 15s - you could easily pull it off with a fresh 60. Progression? What's that? We don't need that in our game!

We need to actually try to push now. I believe that a decent number of M+ players, if not the majority, will end up embracing this change. Makes us play longer.

[Osmeric]

I'm pretty sure Blizzard by now knows that making something harder doesn't drive engagement.

I thought they had figured that out many expansions ago. But here we are. I think they've known it all along, they just didn't care.

[Revamp Man]

so mythic players can get gear within 3ilvl of the highest mythic except for certain pieces like the bow in their vault
they can also upgrade gear within 6ilvls of their vault loot

the only thing that has changed is that this happens in a +20 instead of a plus 15 but now you'll get more loot from it as well since the extra 5 levels gives 100% chance at an extra piece of loot

why is this bad?? (it might be but as a raider that just does m+ on off nights idk)

[Gigantique]

I can't even tell if it's laziness at this point or if they just forgot and were flippant about it not being a real concern.

If the shoulders/belt buckle was, by design, easily matched with theit barber shop armour I would have accepted it at least, expecting yhe next tier to do it instead. But this one just fails completely soooo...

- - - Updated - - -

Couple of weeks or so left until pre-patch; still hopeful more refinements are made to the revamped UI and that what we currently have is the "ship it" version. One in particular -- minimal option for unitframes and either integrated or detachable class/spec power.

Just seeing it now but that holy power artwork has a chain that now just.... ends in mid-air. Oouf!

[Nymrohd]

so mythic players can get gear within 3ilvl of the highest mythic except for certain pieces like the bow in their vault
they can also upgrade gear within 6ilvls of their vault loot

the only thing that has changed is that this happens in a +20 instead of a plus 15 but now you'll get more loot from it as well since the extra 5 levels gives 100% chance at an extra piece of loot

why is this bad?? (it might be but as a raider that just does m+ on off nights idk)

Well M+ will also be significantly harder from 11 going up. None of this is bad. THey are essentially getting rewards to match effort. It's only bad for people who did one M15 a week because many of them will have no chance to complete one M20. Honestly I cannot see myself ever trying to PuG a M20 either (it will be effectively at the level of a current M22-23 and I can only clear those confidently with the better players of my guild).

- - - Updated - - -

Btw can I add how bad the changes to rep quests are? Blizzard keeps trying to make the game a chore. They really need to stop making so many activities reset daily. When the guides try and produce a list of activities you'll want to do to keep up with reputation in DF, that list will be far too long. And instead of making more of those weekly or biweekly they are changing more of them to daily instead. Horrible design choice.

[Lahis]

Well M+ will also be significantly harder from 11 going up. None of this is bad. THey are essentially getting rewards to match effort. It's only bad for people who did one M15 a week because many of them will have no chance to complete one M20. Honestly I cannot see myself ever trying to PuG a M20 either (it will be effectively at the level of a current M22-23 and I can only clear those confidently with the better players of my guild).

Which makes me dread these changes. Max M+ is required for gearing, but now it will be impossible to pug.

[Nymrohd]

Which makes me dread these changes. Max M+ is required for gearing, but now it will be impossible to pug.

Well maybe the paradigm will change. Not early on S1 but soon after. I am a raid leader and guild leader since TBC. I did require people who are in the main raiding team to run at least one M15. Not because I think it is needed but because it was better than letting people choose and possibly having to deal with resentment (plus we set aside an evening for guild M+ runs and both of us tanks will usually run a couple dungeons that evening to help boost people who struggle to get groups).
We haven't decided yet but we think we will NOT require it this expansion. Honestly because I know the weaker people of a mainly Heroic guild/community that just fools around on Mythic after AotC and the meta achievement would be useless in what is effectively a M+23 run. You simply cannot carry weaker players through that, not unless you are BiS geared veteran players who run 25+ regularly (and we are not). So we will check out the difficulty and then judge. If most PuGs fail to even complete a M20 (forget timing it) and if keys for those runs become fairly scarce, people will give up on trying to gear through that way anyway.
And imo that is a very positive thing. Most of the problematic community in M+ is at those 15 keys full of people who do not want to be there, just want to get their loot and want to be done with it as fast as possible. If that part of the community is removed, maybe the total keys run per season will decrease but I think groups will be far happier for it.