1. #68681
    Herald of the Titans Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holdodlig View Post
    Seeing all the primalists' night elves and blood elves makes me believe that the next all race / class combinaison we'll see is shaman. If we bring back Tyr to life, he might just give access to all race / class paladin. And if we visit the dream as it is hinted by the centaur campaign, we might just get druids for every race too. The only original class that would still be unavailable to everyone would be warlock which could easily come at any moment since the warlock are basically evil mages.
    They need to design totems/chargers/forms first, which is the issue they stated with "all races/all classes".

  2. #68682
    Quote Originally Posted by klaps_05 View Post
    Feels arbitrary to require X amount of time/weeks to be able to obtain a low impact bonus. Why not just put the bonus on a single class restricted item like Archimonde trinkets? Tier sets are liked because they used to give big power spikes and were a complete looking set. I would rather have the tier set bonus on 1 item and have the whole class tier ensemble drop 1 by 1 as personal loot unlocking appearances. This also solves the problem of people wearing normal/heroic tier during progression and in pugs you wont feel bad every time someone wins a tier you need when you have 3/4 set.
    If you put it on a single item you make it too easy to just carry it forwards. A 2 and 4 set both means you will be forced to replace it, not to mention the acquisition is slower, which means the developers can effectively tune bosses assuming you don't have it.

    In short, tier sets satisfy several requirements players might have. Even if the ability itself is boring, it doesn't matter so long as the set is tuned high enough to be worth it regardless.
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  3. #68683
    Immortal Shadochi's Avatar
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    I am perfectly fine with what the tier sets (at least for the ones I viewed for my main and a few alts I play early).
    There is no need for this tier set to be some extravagant rotation changing buff since this is the first season of a huge overhaul it doesn't matter, its a new rotation for a lot of classes either way so better to just be a buff to talents and abilities so people cant get used to the base class

  4. #68684
    Herald of the Titans Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadochi View Post
    I am perfectly fine with what the tier sets (at least for the ones I viewed for my main and a few alts I play early).
    There is no need for this tier set to be some extravagant rotation changing buff since this is the first season of a huge overhaul it doesn't matter, its a new rotation for a lot of classes either way so better to just be a buff to talents and abilities so people cant get used to the base class
    While true, it kinda lessens the potential awesomenes of the Dragonflight Fated season and mixed tier sets there. Although I guess if we still get 2-3 more it will still be quite cool enough in the end.

  5. #68685
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    I have to say it definitely shows that there is an extra team for world content. At any moment there are so many events on the map and Elemental Invasions are disabled even! I am not even looking at it with war mode on. And yeah people can say it is the same type of content we had before and that it is not that rewarding but honestly, at the start of the expac the reward is just looking at the continent, having fun with your class gameplay in less challenging content (though the elite areas can kick your ass and many specs will want to group up to tackle them) and just doing the renown grind. And there seems to be a lot of content to do that can keep you busy for more than the usual 2-3 months (or enough for you to nolife the game for a fair bit) without even touching repeating content.

    Now for the repeatable content, I think the Nokhud offensive will be VERY annoying for PuGs. Going to be a challenge to get everyone to land at the same spot.

  6. #68686
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    While true, it kinda lessens the potential awesomenes of the Dragonflight Fated season and mixed tier sets there. Although I guess if we still get 2-3 more it will still be quite cool enough in the end.
    Mixed tier sets are unlikely given you can at best only get two 2-set bonuses, not a 2 and 4 set like you could in Legion.

    Though honestly, based on tuning a simple set is just as likely to be OP anyways, barring a WoD situation where the last tier intentionally gave completely busted tier bonuses.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  7. #68687
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Mixed tier sets are unlikely given you can at best only get two 2-set bonuses, not a 2 and 4 set like you could in Legion.

    Though honestly, based on tuning a simple set is just as likely to be OP anyways, barring a WoD situation where the last tier intentionally gave completely busted tier bonuses.
    And do we really want a return to Legion? Locking multiple slots is one thing; we can expect the signature items (the ones from the raid guaranteed to have higher ilvl) to effectively lock slots. If some of the Embellished crafted items prove OP enough to make up for any ilvl difference (which is very possible, some of the effects are really strong) those lock slots too. You end up back at the situation were getting items for certain slots is just not an upgrade. I guess the catalyst improves on that? I do wonder, will we be able to use the catalyst to craft any tier set from the expac or just the current ones?

  8. #68688
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    And do we really want a return to Legion? Locking multiple slots is one thing; we can expect the signature items (the ones from the raid guaranteed to have higher ilvl) to effectively lock slots. If some of the Embellished crafted items prove OP enough to make up for any ilvl difference (which is very possible, some of the effects are really strong) those lock slots too. You end up back at the situation were getting items for certain slots is just not an upgrade. I guess the catalyst improves on that? I do wonder, will we be able to use the catalyst to craft any tier set from the expac or just the current ones?
    I certainly hope so. Otherwise you would have to play every class at every difficulty in every season to be able to gather the full suite of appearances.
    Elite PvP sets being unobtainable after the season is over is already egregious enough, and that is just so one coloration.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  9. #68689
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    While true, it kinda lessens the potential awesomenes of the Dragonflight Fated season and mixed tier sets there. Although I guess if we still get 2-3 more it will still be quite cool enough in the end.
    I'm not sure we'd get that either way. More likely you can just upgrade everything to the final tier.

    And it goes back to an old issue with set bonuses: If they make the first tier bonuses to awesome, people are going to feel bad switching them out for the second.

  10. #68690
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    On the matter of tier sets I have to fully agree with the devs. We are getting the most massive redesign of classes ever. This is bigger than MoP or Legion and I've tried several specs and found ways to make them play very different to what they do on live. Was that optimal? No idea! We'll have to wait for the sims and see I guess. But when you are adding so many options in the game, strong tier sets would likely limit what can be done severely. Some of them may already do that even when they are so simple; e.g. I can see Frost DK set pushing Obliterate-heavy rotations over BoS (which I'm fine with, I hate BoS).

    One thing that would be very cool given we have the catalyst is if they could keep all the sets current. You can't go 2+4 like you could in Legion so the variations will be more contained and it would be really interesting and allow them to make sets that are more focused during the xpac without killing some builds (since a different set could support them). Think of them becoming more like Diablo Sets; a different way to gear up.

  11. #68691
    Herald of the Titans Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I certainly hope so. Otherwise you would have to play every class at every difficulty in every season to be able to gather the full suite of appearances.
    Elite PvP sets being unobtainable after the season is over is already egregious enough, and that is just so one coloration.
    To be fair, they could always sell ensambles once a season is over. That said, I'm quite sure the tier sets will be locked to their season so items from vault of the incarnates will always turn into dragonflight tier one pieces, stuff from the second raid into tier two etc.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    On the matter of tier sets I have to fully agree with the devs. We are getting the most massive redesign of classes ever. This is bigger than MoP or Legion and I've tried several specs and found ways to make them play very different to what they do on live. Was that optimal? No idea! We'll have to wait for the sims and see I guess. But when you are adding so many options in the game, strong tier sets would likely limit what can be done severely. Some of them may already do that even when they are so simple; e.g. I can see Frost DK set pushing Obliterate-heavy rotations over BoS (which I'm fine with, I hate BoS).

    One thing that would be very cool given we have the catalyst is if they could keep all the sets current. You can't go 2+4 like you could in Legion so the variations will be more contained and it would be really interesting and allow them to make sets that are more focused during the xpac without killing some builds (since a different set could support them). Think of them becoming more like Diablo Sets; a different way to gear up.
    Yeah, that's how I hope the fated season will play out - allowing for a bunch of different builds instead of a "get go" build. Could also help fight the extreme min-max view the community has right now.

  12. #68692
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    If you put it on a single item you make it too easy to just carry it forwards. A 2 and 4 set both means you will be forced to replace it, not to mention the acquisition is slower, which means the developers can effectively tune bosses assuming you don't have it.

    In short, tier sets satisfy several requirements players might have. Even if the ability itself is boring, it doesn't matter so long as the set is tuned high enough to be worth it regardless.
    Forcing players to get a new one is as easy as disabling the item in a new raid or making it work at lower effect than intended if its an old item. If you have it right away devs can also effectively tune bosses, as devs essentially define what power level a raid will have and tune around that.

    Putting the ensemble as acquirable via direct personal loot like conduits also means no griefing with need/greed and allows them to make a full more detailed sets with full 10 pieces rather than combining tier with offpieces as a complete set.

    I personally feel much less satisfaction when the tier bonus especially 4pc is a joke - after all the work to get it, with some ppl having to wait 12 weeks for 4pc, it should be a lot stronger (which should be also fine now that there is catalyst every tier).

  13. #68693
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    To be fair, they could always sell ensambles once a season is over. That said, I'm quite sure the tier sets will be locked to their season so items from vault of the incarnates will always turn into dragonflight tier one pieces, stuff from the second raid into tier two etc.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yeah, that's how I hope the fated season will play out - allowing for a bunch of different builds instead of a "get go" build. Could also help fight the extreme min-max view the community has right now.
    I imagine that a potential fated raid reason will work like now. Only one raid a week, and only that one will be upgradeable the rest will hopefully change into the older sets still.
    The only source that i think will change is the dungeon gear changing what it transforms to each season.
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  14. #68694
    Legendary! Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by klaps_05 View Post
    I personally feel much less satisfaction when the tier bonus especially 4pc is a joke - after all the work to get it, with some ppl having to wait 12 weeks for 4pc, it should be a lot stronger (which should be also fine now that there is catalyst every tier).
    Was pretty obvious they will play it safe in first tier when we got this huge talent overhaul. Same as in Cata, when first sets were super bland. But I am not sure what kind of "all the work" and "12 weeks" you are talking about.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  15. #68695
    Quote Originally Posted by klaps_05 View Post
    Forcing players to get a new one is as easy as disabling the item in a new raid or making it work at lower effect than intended if its an old item. If you have it right away devs can also effectively tune bosses, as devs essentially define what power level a raid will have and tune around that.

    Putting the ensemble as acquirable via direct personal loot like conduits also means no griefing with need/greed and allows them to make a full more detailed sets with full 10 pieces rather than combining tier with offpieces as a complete set.

    I personally feel much less satisfaction when the tier bonus especially 4pc is a joke - after all the work to get it, with some ppl having to wait 12 weeks for 4pc, it should be a lot stronger (which should be also fine now that there is catalyst every tier).
    Making the trinket unusable in future raids is one of the worst things they could do. It means you will have to keep a subpar trinket in preparation for when the new raid releases, or effectively start a new raid with one less trinket than normal.
    It would feel awful.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  16. #68696
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    They need to design totems/chargers/forms first, which is the issue they stated with "all races/all classes".
    I don't think totem will be the hardest thing for them to design which is why I think they'll just be first. It's just one small model on which they'll add different particle effect depending on the element.

    Same for the charger. They already have every racial mount in HD even if they're not labelled as racial mount like the sabertooth, deathcharger or even the troll raptors. And most of them already have a lore reason to exist anyway, and thus even without Tyr :
    >We already saw night elves paladins
    >Same with undead with Zeliek and Whitemane.
    >With Vol'jin gaining Rezan's powers, he can just make his own cast of prelates.
    >There is a void elf paladin copycat in the Island Explorations but should we count this as a true paladin ?

    The only races we have yet to see as paladin are :
    >High mountain which can easily be added as a cultural influence from their non-blessed counterpart. They would just have an armored moose.
    >Kultiran which is basically the same as taurens. They'll probably have the same charger as humans since they ride horses.
    >Same for the worgens. They have a cathedral and even if we don't know which god they worship, we can easily believe it's the light. Same as kultiran and humans, a horse.
    >Gnomes and mecagnomes who might just understand by studying Tyr how he used the light and do the same. Mechastrider for gnomes, spider tank for mechagnomes.
    >Pandarens are strong-willed and I honestly never understood why they couldn't be paladin to begin with (and I'm dead serious about that). Light turtle for them ?
    >Vulperas doesn't have much lore anyway so they'll just follow anything we give to them. Their racial mounts are hyenas which were updated in BFA.


    And they don't even need to add custom racial mount right away. How long have dwarves and draenei rode the human charger ?

    As for druids, I'll agree that it will take way more time than any other class as they have to design bear, cat and a custom balance form.

  17. #68697
    Over 9000! Lahis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holdodlig View Post
    As for druids, I'll agree that it will take way more time than any other class as they have to design bear, cat and a custom balance form.
    Flight form has also always been racialöy distinct, and with AR druids that was extended to ither travel forms too.

  18. #68698
    Nice to see that they added a "snap" feature to the UI edit mode. Would still like to see a few more, which I consider basic and not unreasonable, improvements:


    • independent resizing of things like minimap instead of being based on UI scale; I usually scale my UI up to about 0.85, and the minimap is enormous;
    • ability to hide/fade all UI elements; e.g., if I'm using the Combined Backpack, I do not need to see the Bag Bar at all;
    • UI still a mix of old, low-res textures with new, high-res ones (maybe they're holding out on all the other textures for the home stretch?);
    • ability to detach class/spec power from player unitframe;
    • ability to move interface windows with edit mode;
    • still would like better text drop shadows and tighter kerning (yes, super-niche-personal)
    Last edited by Gloriandus; 2022-10-01 at 02:56 PM.

  19. #68699
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Was pretty obvious they will play it safe in first tier when we got this huge talent overhaul. Same as in Cata, when first sets were super bland. But I am not sure what kind of "all the work" and "12 weeks" you are talking about.
    If you dont raid it takes 4 weeks after the catalyst is open, which usually opens in week 8. With larger roster or pugging, it can take a massive amount of time to have 4/4 heroic or 4/4 mythic set and with tiered ilevel, could mean even longer as ppl would be less willing to trade higher ilevel as progression goes on.

  20. #68700
    Legendary! Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by klaps_05 View Post
    If you dont raid it takes 4 weeks after the catalyst is open, which usually opens in week 8. With larger roster or pugging, it can take a massive amount of time to have 4/4 heroic or 4/4 mythic set and with tiered ilevel, could mean even longer as ppl would be less willing to trade higher ilevel as progression goes on.
    If you don't raid at all, then you just deprave yourself of Tier source, and it's on you. You got options, but you are not using them, so the trade-off is taking longer to get 4-set. Catalyst system was created for those unlucky, still missing final piece, and as a catchup for alts. No one will cater to those not raiding with reduced waiting time. Also, replacing higher ilvl pieces is much less important than getting set bonuses in the first place (who even exclusively pugs Myhics?). Oh, and DF catalyst opens 6 weeks after raid release.
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2022-10-01 at 04:56 PM.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

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