Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Nymrohd]

I don't know if I agree with this. I was playing WotLK Classic for the last weeks and logged onto the live servers just yesterday. It was... really weird to see "new" WoW and "old" WoW. While spell effects and animations look better, they are very cartoonish and almost too unreal compared to "back in the days". While retail might look way better from a technical standpoint, it lost a lot of its earlier charme (which only is apparent when you can compare both 1:1). Everything in retail is just too vibrant and flashy and there's waaaaaaaaaaay too much going on all of the time.

I call bullshit. We've done the side by side comparison so many times. ANd when people are pressed for details it fast becomes clear that it's not that the old models were gritier etc. it is that the lower resolution allowed your mind more leeway to fill in the details. It's easy to interpret messy polygons and blurry textures into dirt and gore. Your mind just fills in the blanks. The earlier charm was not actually there and very literally is all in your brain. Which is no fault of your own, that's how the brain functions.

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TBH, i don't think the Light really needs a spy or undercover agent on Azeroth. Half the Alliance is deeply connected with the Light (including their current leader) and if the Light calls to them i am sure you would find wnough fanatics to act on its behalf without Calia.

Meh, the Alliance's ties to the Light have been with the direct force for a very long time, not with its representatives. So far all the conniving has not been by some abstract Force; it has been by the creatures representing it. THe problem i.e is not the Light or Void, it's the Prime Naaru or the Void Lords etc. But yeah, if a Prime Naaru arrived on Azeroth and asked the Alliance (and the Blood Knights) to do increasingly crazy things there would be civil war (with imo Velen questioning the Naaru and Turalyon aligned with them early on and then turning mid expac)
That said, I would love to know what became of the Naaru that revealed themselves to Mereldar. It would be a very interesting twist if in a future expansion we find out that the force that kept the Lich King away in Light's Hope Chapel was not martyrdom but rather the fact that the Chapel was built across Lake Mereldar and then find beneath it a chamber with the core of five Naaru.

[Jaggler]

I don't know if I agree with this. I was playing WotLK Classic for the last weeks and logged onto the live servers just yesterday. It was... really weird to see "new" WoW and "old" WoW. While spell effects and animations look better, they are very cartoonish and almost too unreal compared to "back in the days". While retail might look way better from a technical standpoint, it lost a lot of its earlier charme (which only is apparent when you can compare both 1:1). Everything in retail is just too vibrant and flashy and there's waaaaaaaaaaay too much going on all of the time.

That just seems like personal preference to me. I think current WoW looks way more livelier and for me it's usually easier to identify whats going on. If you prefer the older, simpler style it's fine, but saying it's apparent and implying it's objectively better is just wrong.

[Usernameforforums]

I won a key in a giveaway (go me!) and have logged in to the beta, is there a way I can test things like Dragonriding and evokers without completing quests? I don’t want to ruin it for myself but still want to test features and provide feedback on that. The max level sever won’t let me leave the capital city so can’t do it on that realm.

You can just complete the first quest then just fly around. They give you 3 of the dragon riding mounts

[Jaggler]

Meh, the Alliance's ties to the Light have been with the direct force for a very long time, not with its representatives. So far all the conniving has not been by some abstract Force; it has been by the creatures representing it. THe problem i.e is not the Light or Void, it's the Prime Naaru or the Void Lords etc. But yeah, if a Prime Naaru arrived on Azeroth and asked the Alliance (and the Blood Knights) to do increasingly crazy things there would be civil war (with imo Velen questioning the Naaru and Turalyon aligned with them early on and then turning mid expac)

Turalyon would be a good "Light Garrosh" with Velen his Vol'jin (or Sylvanas' Saurfang)

[Skildar]

See here is the thing. At no point do the notes state that the Pantheon is actually the Pantheon of Order. They are still creatures of the Physical Realm. It's just that Order WON their attention and alignment early on. The Six Forces are at war. EVERYONE was likely trying to recruit the Titans in their way. The Void Lords very clearly are trying to do this; that's the entire plan with the Old Gods and the glee of Xal to get a foothold in the Seat of the Pantheon. The entire Nathrezim plot in Death lead to that; not just to knock the Arbiter out but then to create a new one powered by a Titan Soul.

My opinion is this. The universe is an experiment by the First Ones and the Titans are the desired end product. They set up six forces and then the physical reality for them to interact in. The APEX result of that interaction is the Pantheon (and above them all, Azeroth). Xal'atath suggests that the war between Void and Light and likely the war between all the forces has lasted far longer than the Pantheon existed.

When the Titans came to be the force that managed to get them on their side was Order. Some element of Order (possibly the Constellar) brought the Titans to Zereth Ordos, taught them the Purpose but through Order's lense and let them go.

I really like this reading especially after the brokers pushed their way of seeing the cosmos and that they explicitly mention the titans are not the main agents of order. I've never put more weight on these other than blizz dev team wanting to expand on the cosmology and open some doors for themselves. But it fits to have the titans being a force that is whole.

The only downside for now if story moves further into this direction is that titans currently work well as these distant figures that don"t interact directly with mortal worlds. But then again, blizzard surprised us a few times when using the titans, difficult to expect seeing them all alive and present at the same time in the confrontation against the last boss of legion when they were thought to be dead or lost in the twisting nether

[Nymrohd]

Turalyon would be a good "Light Garrosh" with Velen his Vol'jin (or Sylvanas' Saurfang)

Nah I think Turalyon would start fully Light aligned but he would turn on a tyrannical version of the Light sooner rather than later. Imo his arc would most likely be boss encounter when he changes mind mid encounter and if he has done something horrible during the expac he will then martyr himself to save Alleria or Arator. I can see Yrel being "sunk cost fallacy" and "I've done too many horrible things to stop now". As for Light Garrosh . . . well that will be AU Garrosh. Or in a cool subversion AU Garrosh will be a double agent and will kill AU X'era.

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I really like this reading especially after the brokers pushed their way of seeing the cosmos and that they explicitly mention the titans are not the main agents of order. I've never put more weight on these other than blizz dev team wanting to expand on the cosmology and open some doors for themselves. But it fits to have the titans being a force that is whole.

The only downside for now if story moves further into this direction is that titans currently work well as these distant figures that don"t interact directly with mortal worlds. But then again, blizzard surprised us a few times when using the titans, difficult to expect seeing them all alive and present at the same time in the confrontation against the last boss of legion when they were thought to be dead or lost in the twisting nether

Heck maybe it is not an experiment. Maybe it is their LIFECYCLE. They set up the Six Forces then died knowing that this will birth a new set of Titans, a new set of First Ones who would have to learn from the Six Forces and start the cycle again

[Nyel]

The earlier charm was not actually there and very literally is all in your brain. Which is no fault of your own, that's how the brain functions.

I completely disagree with this, but whatever, it's not coming back anyway. And a world revamp isn't coming either, so the discussion is pointless.

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That just seems like personal preference to me. I think current WoW looks way more livelier and for me it's usually easier to identify whats going on. If you prefer the older, simpler style it's fine, but saying it's apparent and implying it's objectively better is just wrong.

I never said it's better, I said it had more charme. Heck, I even said that retail looks better in general and that it's just too vibrant and too flashy all the time (which is a pretty universal complaint and not just me, by the way).

[Skildar]

Heck maybe it is not an experiment. Maybe it is their LIFECYCLE. They set up the Six Forces then died knowing that this will birth a new set of Titans, a new set of First Ones who would have to learn from the Six Forces and start the cycle again

And everytime they create a new cosmology they expose themselves to be expunged by their latest creation and need to breed a new one in order to remove the former

[Nymrohd]

And everytime they create a new cosmology they expose themselves to be expunged by their latest creation and need to breed a new one in order to remove the former

Nah I think that maybe in order to fully birth a new cosmology they need to die. They are like cosmic male kalutas, expending all their energy in creating a new generation. I truly think the First Ones are dead. It works better for them to be dead, especially if we end up having to oppose the Titans; it leaves us against the Seventh Force alone with Azeroth.

[Sondrelk]

Nah I think that maybe in order to fully birth a new cosmology they need to die. They are like cosmic male kalutas, expending all their energy in creating a new generation. I truly think the First Ones are dead. It works better for them to be dead, especially if we end up having to oppose the Titans; it leaves us against the Seventh Force alone with Azeroth.

Or alternatively, the seventh force is reality. Which leaves the players, the metaphorical children of all the forces, against the remaining six. A final battle for control of Azeroth as the likely nexus of the cosmos.

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Heck maybe it is not an experiment. Maybe it is their LIFECYCLE. They set up the Six Forces then died knowing that this will birth a new set of Titans, a new set of First Ones who would have to learn from the Six Forces and start the cycle again

Given Firim specifically mentions how reality is a complete mystery to him, this might be the way it will play out.
The six cosmic forces already existed, the First Ones ordered them to interact with reality in weird ways, then left it to create the cosmos for reasons that completely baffles Firim.

[micwini]

People talking about Avaloren/Avalon. There is a scarlet crusade town in the DK starting zone that's called "new avalon". So we might be visiting the "old" avalon? Might be a scarlet crusade stronghold?

[Nymrohd]

Or alternatively, the seventh force is reality. Which leaves the players, the metaphorical children of all the forces, against the remaining six. A final battle for control of Azeroth as the likely nexus of the cosmos.

Cosmogonic myths often establish something existing before reality is created. Whatever that something is, will imo be the Seventh Force. It is what was displaced to make room for Reality. Originally I thought it was the Devourers. Now I assume it's whatever that great serpent watching us from space was.

[Paula Deen]

I remained skeptical of the release window here. Perhaps they are being cheeky for the data miners, but the same kind of things were happening in the SL Beta and it got delayed before they announced release. The only difference here is that with the lack of music that makes me think they are just withholding things at this point, especially with the login screen and music getting dropped as soon as it was needed.

Either way, I feel like this is a strong return to form ever since WoD flopped they have seemingly been afraid to move forward without new major game systems. This is the first time since then that I feel like I won't be overwhelmed with new power systems.

The difference here, from the beta presentation so far, seems to be that there is a plethora of world content to actually engage with unlike WoD.

[Skildar]

Nah I think that maybe in order to fully birth a new cosmology they need to die. They are like cosmic male kalutas, expending all their energy in creating a new generation. I truly think the First Ones are dead. It works better for them to be dead, especially if we end up having to oppose the Titans; it leaves us against the Seventh Force alone with Azeroth.

Thanks for the knowledge on kalutas, what a life
It does work fine to have the first ones dead but it also make an endless source of threats and new environments to have them alive

[Auxis]

Cosmogonic myths often establish something existing before reality is created. Whatever that something is, will imo be the Seventh Force. It is what was displaced to make room for Reality. Originally I thought it was the Devourers. Now I assume it's whatever that great serpent watching us from space was.

Care to elaborate on this 'great serpent'? Do you mean the serpent symbol that is used throughout WoW? (The one on Azeroth's Dark Portal, the 2 serpents eating each other in the Broker's version of the Cosmology chart, and the one used in Ourobos - the serpent symbol itself that looks like the Dark Portal one, and the winding serpent body/scale motifs in certain parts)

[Nymrohd]

Care to elaborate on this 'great serpent'? Do you mean the serpent symbol that is used throughout WoW? (The one on Azeroth's Dark Portal, the 2 serpents eating each other in the Broker's version of the Cosmology chart, and the one used in Ourobos - the serpent symbol itself that looks like the Dark Portal one, and the winding serpent body/scale motifs in certain parts)

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Sta...ion_Invasions)
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Damp_Pamphlet
It's mentioned elsewhere, will have to find it.

[Auxis]

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Sta...ion_Invasions)
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Damp_Pamphlet
It's mentioned elsewhere, will have to find it.

Interesting. It's similar to the "Black goat with seven eyes watching from the outside."

Black goat with seven eyes seemed like a red herring towards Y'shaarj somehow still being alive or somewhere (it was allegedly ripped out by Aman'thul, who knows where its body is. It should have a brain and eyes. It's heart may have been destroyed but it's head was still intact in theory. Maybe the Titans imprisoned his remains outisde of Azeroth (ie. in the sky/space somewhere) because Old Gods are notoriously difficult to "kill").

But seven eyes? Seventh force? Outside?
Crooked serpent in the sky with no eyes devouring stars?
Hmmmmmm

[Jaggler]

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Sta...ion_Invasions)
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Damp_Pamphlet
It's mentioned elsewhere, will have to find it.

Could be an entity, could be the "Void" as a force or in its entire being itself. It certainly fits the decription we had about the Void constantly seeing every possible future and past

[AOL Instant Messenger]

See here is the thing. At no point do the notes state that the Pantheon is actually the Pantheon of Order. They are still creatures of the Physical Realm. It's just that Order WON their attention and alignment early on. The Six Forces are at war. EVERYONE was likely trying to recruit the Titans in their way. The Void Lords very clearly are trying to do this; that's the entire plan with the Old Gods and the glee of Xal to get a foothold in the Seat of the Pantheon. The entire Nathrezim plot in Death lead to that; not just to knock the Arbiter out but then to create a new one powered by a Titan Soul.

My opinion is this. The universe is an experiment by the First Ones and the Titans are the desired end product. They set up six forces and then the physical reality for them to interact in. The APEX result of that interaction is the Pantheon (and above them all, Azeroth). Xal'atath suggests that the war between Void and Light and likely the war between all the forces has lasted far longer than the Pantheon existed.

When the Titans came to be the force that managed to get them on their side was Order. Some element of Order (possibly the Constellar) brought the Titans to Zereth Ordos, taught them the Purpose but through Order's lense and let them go.

That seems implausible, even though the theory itself is quite interesting, given that Blizzard has established them so thoroughly as beings of Order in themselves, and are on record referring to a "Titan homeworld" (presumably meant to be Zereth Ordos)—then again, if there's one thing we've learned, it's that past precedent has entirely no meaning with this new lore. We're all on Blizzard's Wild Ride and it never seems to end. At the very least this theory constitutes an earnest attempt to reconcile old characterization and lore with new characterization and lore, and it's honestly quite clever and would be a nice out that allows for the relative best of both worlds, but I generally wouldn't say that's the direction they're headed in and, if it were, it's about as likely as them doing literally anything at all given the dartboard-tier plot direction we've experienced thus far.

I do like this theory, though. It does explain why Azeroth is so crucial to every Cosmic Force in some capacity or another, and it further explains things such as Eonar's dominion over life (though, of course, the Doylist explanation is that Blizzard forgot about this old, more Kitchen Sink fantasy lore and left all sorts of awkward holes open when trying to segregate all forms of magic across a set of six "cosmic forces") being feasible. It at least reconciles everything neatly, even if it requires suspending your disbelief for yet another major retcon that has the specter of the obvious Doylist fact of "we were making it up as we went along, created an irreconcilable set of facts, and had to make something up to make it seem like it wasn't just a big accidental retcon and to make it work" hanging over it.

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Interesting. It's similar to the "Black goat with seven eyes watching from the outside."

Black goat with seven eyes seemed like a red herring towards Y'shaarj somehow still being alive or somewhere (it was allegedly ripped out by Aman'thul, who knows where its body is. It should have a brain and eyes. It's heart may have been destroyed but it's head was still intact in theory. Maybe the Titans imprisoned his remains outisde of Azeroth (ie. in the sky/space somewhere) because Old Gods are notoriously difficult to "kill").

But seven eyes? Seventh force? Outside?
Crooked serpent in the sky with no eyes devouring stars?
Hmmmmmm

I envision the Crooked Serpent as a Void Lord or, perhaps, a corrupted Titan. If it's the former, it's probably one of the more physical and malicious of the Void Lords, the one closest to "evil" as we perceive it, solely going off the air of cruelty and depravity the language evokes.

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Cosmogonic myths often establish something existing before reality is created. Whatever that something is, will imo be the Seventh Force. It is what was displaced to make room for Reality. Originally I thought it was the Devourers. Now I assume it's whatever that great serpent watching us from space was.

This is another awkward instance of the redundancy that Blizzard has accidentally produced with all this First Ones nonsense. In addition to the First Ones being wholly redundant with the Titans save for being nebulously Bigger and Better, the preceding force you describe is effectively the Void, but Bigger and Badder.

[Xilurm]

This is from Wrath Classic.

Please tell me this isn't a thing in DF... Please...