1. #68961
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    I actually do have to say that it's at least a breath of fresh air to return to the initial state of the Titans as more morally-convoluted beings instead of the Super-Good Guizzz we were reintroduced to in Chronicles. Still, it doesn't work as well now that the Titans aren't distant alien beings whose nature and objectives are inscrutable to us, but instead essentially Giant Spehs Robits whose motives boil down to the vague object of "ORDER!!!" which they will presumably fail to substantially define throughout the entirety of the new lore right up until the next retcon which ditches all the previous cosmology and introduces the Initial Integers..
    See here is the thing. At no point do the notes state that the Pantheon is actually the Pantheon of Order. They are still creatures of the Physical Realm. It's just that Order WON their attention and alignment early on. The Six Forces are at war. EVERYONE was likely trying to recruit the Titans in their way. The Void Lords very clearly are trying to do this; that's the entire plan with the Old Gods and the glee of Xal to get a foothold in the Seat of the Pantheon. The entire Nathrezim plot in Death lead to that; not just to knock the Arbiter out but then to create a new one powered by a Titan Soul.

    My opinion is this. The universe is an experiment by the First Ones and the Titans are the desired end product. They set up six forces and then the physical reality for them to interact in. The APEX result of that interaction is the Pantheon (and above them all, Azeroth). Xal'atath suggests that the war between Void and Light and likely the war between all the forces has lasted far longer than the Pantheon existed.

    When the Titans came to be the force that managed to get them on their side was Order. Some element of Order (possibly the Constellar) brought the Titans to Zereth Ordos, taught them the Purpose but through Order's lense and let them go.

  2. #68962
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    See here is the thing. At no point do the notes state that the Pantheon is actually the Pantheon of Order. They are still creatures of the Physical Realm. It's just that Order WON their attention and alignment early on. The Six Forces are at war. EVERYONE was likely trying to recruit the Titans in their way. The Void Lords very clearly are trying to do this; that's the entire plan with the Old Gods and the glee of Xal to get a foothold in the Seat of the Pantheon. The entire Nathrezim plot in Death lead to that; not just to knock the Arbiter out but then to create a new one powered by a Titan Soul.

    My opinion is this. The universe is an experiment by the First Ones and the Titans are the desired end product. They set up six forces and then the physical reality for them to interact in. The APEX result of that interaction is the Pantheon (and above them all, Azeroth). Xal'atath suggests that the war between Void and Light and likely the war between all the forces has lasted far longer than the Pantheon existed.

    When the Titans came to be the force that managed to get them on their side was Order. Some element of Order (possibly the Constellar) brought the Titans to Zereth Ordos, taught them the Purpose but through Order's lense and let them go.
    Going with that thery we have Titans influenced by order, one influenced by Chaos and MAYBE one influenced by death? The Void Lords try to corrupt one. That leaves Light and Life as the ones who haven't shown their hands in that regard yet. Though it stands to reason that Eonar could easily be working for Life with nobody noticing it. And that Light isn't a wholly benevolent force isn't anything new.

  3. #68963
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaggler View Post
    And that Light isn't a wholly benevolent force isn't anything new.
    Light is working with the Seventh Force (made a deal with the enemy of all). As for Life, I guess we'll get some idea of what it might be working on soon. Imo Elune's influence and interest on Azeroth suggests to me that Life's focus is on getting Azeroth on their side.

  4. #68964
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaggler View Post
    Going with that thery we have Titans influenced by order, one influenced by Chaos and MAYBE one influenced by death? The Void Lords try to corrupt one. That leaves Light and Life as the ones who haven't shown their hands in that regard yet. Though it stands to reason that Eonar could easily be working for Life with nobody noticing it. And that Light isn't a wholly benevolent force isn't anything new.
    With that in mind - Elune as Life deity can try to turn Azeroth via Night Elves.
    Light - via paladins and priest orders. But in slow rate.

  5. #68965
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    With that in mind - Elune as Life deity can try to turn Azeroth via Night Elves.
    Light - via paladins and priest orders. But in slow rate.
    For me Light has a very clear plot going on Azeroth and that's Calia Menethil. Light directly intervened via S'ara (sp?) and raised her into a unique form at about the time when Blizzard was coming up with the new cosmology. She is very likely the catspaw for any Light-based schemes on Azeroth. But given that we know there is an enemy of all, a Seventh Force, it makes sense for one of the Six to betray the others and having that one be Light works just fine.

    As for Life I think we will get to that plot more with the Botani who escaped on Azeroth than with Elune and the Night Elves.

  6. #68966
    Quote Originally Posted by Luck4 View Post
    Pre-patch event is gonna show everybody why we desperately need a World Revamp, every time we go back to the core zones of Warcraft, the base of the franchise, it looks uglier than before, it's so bad now that it's starting to break the immersion.
    I don't know if I agree with this. I was playing WotLK Classic for the last weeks and logged onto the live servers just yesterday. It was... really weird to see "new" WoW and "old" WoW. While spell effects and animations look better, they are very cartoonish and almost too unreal compared to "back in the days". While retail might look way better from a technical standpoint, it lost a lot of its earlier charme (which only is apparent when you can compare both 1:1). Everything in retail is just too vibrant and flashy and there's waaaaaaaaaaay too much going on all of the time.
    Last edited by Nyel; 2022-10-17 at 07:11 AM.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  7. #68967
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    So, in the event for Shadowlands, they explicitly retread the ground of Wrath of the Lich King—now, in the event for Dragonflight, they're explicitly retreading the ground of Cataclysm. Of course.
    Almost every single expansion use nostalgia. Better, source of that nostalgia was also based on nostalgia for something even older.

    Warcraft III -> TBC -> Legion
    Frozen Throne -> Wotlk -> Shadowlands
    Vanilla -> Cataclysm -> Dragonflight

    I don't get why are you surprised, it's powerful tool, would be stupid to not use it. Hell, SL story would be perceived better if they would go full in with nostalgia (like Legion) not just bits here and there.

  8. #68968
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    For me Light has a very clear plot going on Azeroth and that's Calia Menethil. Light directly intervened via S'ara (sp?) and raised her into a unique form at about the time when Blizzard was coming up with the new cosmology. She is very likely the catspaw for any Light-based schemes on Azeroth. But given that we know there is an enemy of all, a Seventh Force, it makes sense for one of the Six to betray the others and having that one be Light works just fine.

    As for Life I think we will get to that plot more with the Botani who escaped on Azeroth than with Elune and the Night Elves.
    TBH, i don't think the Light really needs a spy or undercover agent on Azeroth. Half the Alliance is deeply connected with the Light (including their current leader) and if the Light calls to them i am sure you would find wnough fanatics to act on its behalf without Calia.

  9. #68969
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    I don't know if I agree with this. I was playing WotLK Classic for the last weeks and logged onto the live servers just yesterday. It was... really weird to see "new" WoW and "old" WoW. While spell effects and animations look better, they are very cartoonish and almost too unreal compared to "back in the days". While retail might look way better from a technical standpoint, it lost a lot of its earlier charme (which only is apparent when you can compare both 1:1). Everything in retail is just too vibrant and flashy and there's waaaaaaaaaaay too much going on all of the time.
    I call bullshit. We've done the side by side comparison so many times. ANd when people are pressed for details it fast becomes clear that it's not that the old models were gritier etc. it is that the lower resolution allowed your mind more leeway to fill in the details. It's easy to interpret messy polygons and blurry textures into dirt and gore. Your mind just fills in the blanks. The earlier charm was not actually there and very literally is all in your brain. Which is no fault of your own, that's how the brain functions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaggler View Post
    TBH, i don't think the Light really needs a spy or undercover agent on Azeroth. Half the Alliance is deeply connected with the Light (including their current leader) and if the Light calls to them i am sure you would find wnough fanatics to act on its behalf without Calia.
    Meh, the Alliance's ties to the Light have been with the direct force for a very long time, not with its representatives. So far all the conniving has not been by some abstract Force; it has been by the creatures representing it. THe problem i.e is not the Light or Void, it's the Prime Naaru or the Void Lords etc. But yeah, if a Prime Naaru arrived on Azeroth and asked the Alliance (and the Blood Knights) to do increasingly crazy things there would be civil war (with imo Velen questioning the Naaru and Turalyon aligned with them early on and then turning mid expac)
    That said, I would love to know what became of the Naaru that revealed themselves to Mereldar. It would be a very interesting twist if in a future expansion we find out that the force that kept the Lich King away in Light's Hope Chapel was not martyrdom but rather the fact that the Chapel was built across Lake Mereldar and then find beneath it a chamber with the core of five Naaru.
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2022-10-17 at 07:28 AM.

  10. #68970
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    I don't know if I agree with this. I was playing WotLK Classic for the last weeks and logged onto the live servers just yesterday. It was... really weird to see "new" WoW and "old" WoW. While spell effects and animations look better, they are very cartoonish and almost too unreal compared to "back in the days". While retail might look way better from a technical standpoint, it lost a lot of its earlier charme (which only is apparent when you can compare both 1:1). Everything in retail is just too vibrant and flashy and there's waaaaaaaaaaay too much going on all of the time.
    That just seems like personal preference to me. I think current WoW looks way more livelier and for me it's usually easier to identify whats going on. If you prefer the older, simpler style it's fine, but saying it's apparent and implying it's objectively better is just wrong.

  11. #68971
    Quote Originally Posted by Avikur View Post
    I won a key in a giveaway (go me!) and have logged in to the beta, is there a way I can test things like Dragonriding and evokers without completing quests? I don’t want to ruin it for myself but still want to test features and provide feedback on that. The max level sever won’t let me leave the capital city so can’t do it on that realm.
    You can just complete the first quest then just fly around. They give you 3 of the dragon riding mounts
    DRAGONFLIGHT BETA CLUB

  12. #68972
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Meh, the Alliance's ties to the Light have been with the direct force for a very long time, not with its representatives. So far all the conniving has not been by some abstract Force; it has been by the creatures representing it. THe problem i.e is not the Light or Void, it's the Prime Naaru or the Void Lords etc. But yeah, if a Prime Naaru arrived on Azeroth and asked the Alliance (and the Blood Knights) to do increasingly crazy things there would be civil war (with imo Velen questioning the Naaru and Turalyon aligned with them early on and then turning mid expac)
    Turalyon would be a good "Light Garrosh" with Velen his Vol'jin (or Sylvanas' Saurfang)

  13. #68973
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    See here is the thing. At no point do the notes state that the Pantheon is actually the Pantheon of Order. They are still creatures of the Physical Realm. It's just that Order WON their attention and alignment early on. The Six Forces are at war. EVERYONE was likely trying to recruit the Titans in their way. The Void Lords very clearly are trying to do this; that's the entire plan with the Old Gods and the glee of Xal to get a foothold in the Seat of the Pantheon. The entire Nathrezim plot in Death lead to that; not just to knock the Arbiter out but then to create a new one powered by a Titan Soul.

    My opinion is this. The universe is an experiment by the First Ones and the Titans are the desired end product. They set up six forces and then the physical reality for them to interact in. The APEX result of that interaction is the Pantheon (and above them all, Azeroth). Xal'atath suggests that the war between Void and Light and likely the war between all the forces has lasted far longer than the Pantheon existed.

    When the Titans came to be the force that managed to get them on their side was Order. Some element of Order (possibly the Constellar) brought the Titans to Zereth Ordos, taught them the Purpose but through Order's lense and let them go.
    I really like this reading especially after the brokers pushed their way of seeing the cosmos and that they explicitly mention the titans are not the main agents of order. I've never put more weight on these other than blizz dev team wanting to expand on the cosmology and open some doors for themselves. But it fits to have the titans being a force that is whole.

    The only downside for now if story moves further into this direction is that titans currently work well as these distant figures that don"t interact directly with mortal worlds. But then again, blizzard surprised us a few times when using the titans, difficult to expect seeing them all alive and present at the same time in the confrontation against the last boss of legion when they were thought to be dead or lost in the twisting nether

  14. #68974
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaggler View Post
    Turalyon would be a good "Light Garrosh" with Velen his Vol'jin (or Sylvanas' Saurfang)
    Nah I think Turalyon would start fully Light aligned but he would turn on a tyrannical version of the Light sooner rather than later. Imo his arc would most likely be boss encounter when he changes mind mid encounter and if he has done something horrible during the expac he will then martyr himself to save Alleria or Arator. I can see Yrel being "sunk cost fallacy" and "I've done too many horrible things to stop now". As for Light Garrosh . . . well that will be AU Garrosh. Or in a cool subversion AU Garrosh will be a double agent and will kill AU X'era.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    I really like this reading especially after the brokers pushed their way of seeing the cosmos and that they explicitly mention the titans are not the main agents of order. I've never put more weight on these other than blizz dev team wanting to expand on the cosmology and open some doors for themselves. But it fits to have the titans being a force that is whole.

    The only downside for now if story moves further into this direction is that titans currently work well as these distant figures that don"t interact directly with mortal worlds. But then again, blizzard surprised us a few times when using the titans, difficult to expect seeing them all alive and present at the same time in the confrontation against the last boss of legion when they were thought to be dead or lost in the twisting nether
    Heck maybe it is not an experiment. Maybe it is their LIFECYCLE. They set up the Six Forces then died knowing that this will birth a new set of Titans, a new set of First Ones who would have to learn from the Six Forces and start the cycle again

  15. #68975
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    The earlier charm was not actually there and very literally is all in your brain. Which is no fault of your own, that's how the brain functions.
    I completely disagree with this, but whatever, it's not coming back anyway. And a world revamp isn't coming either, so the discussion is pointless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaggler View Post
    That just seems like personal preference to me. I think current WoW looks way more livelier and for me it's usually easier to identify whats going on. If you prefer the older, simpler style it's fine, but saying it's apparent and implying it's objectively better is just wrong.
    I never said it's better, I said it had more charme. Heck, I even said that retail looks better in general and that it's just too vibrant and too flashy all the time (which is a pretty universal complaint and not just me, by the way).
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  16. #68976
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Heck maybe it is not an experiment. Maybe it is their LIFECYCLE. They set up the Six Forces then died knowing that this will birth a new set of Titans, a new set of First Ones who would have to learn from the Six Forces and start the cycle again
    And everytime they create a new cosmology they expose themselves to be expunged by their latest creation and need to breed a new one in order to remove the former

  17. #68977
    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    And everytime they create a new cosmology they expose themselves to be expunged by their latest creation and need to breed a new one in order to remove the former
    Nah I think that maybe in order to fully birth a new cosmology they need to die. They are like cosmic male kalutas, expending all their energy in creating a new generation. I truly think the First Ones are dead. It works better for them to be dead, especially if we end up having to oppose the Titans; it leaves us against the Seventh Force alone with Azeroth.

  18. #68978
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Nah I think that maybe in order to fully birth a new cosmology they need to die. They are like cosmic male kalutas, expending all their energy in creating a new generation. I truly think the First Ones are dead. It works better for them to be dead, especially if we end up having to oppose the Titans; it leaves us against the Seventh Force alone with Azeroth.
    Or alternatively, the seventh force is reality. Which leaves the players, the metaphorical children of all the forces, against the remaining six. A final battle for control of Azeroth as the likely nexus of the cosmos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Heck maybe it is not an experiment. Maybe it is their LIFECYCLE. They set up the Six Forces then died knowing that this will birth a new set of Titans, a new set of First Ones who would have to learn from the Six Forces and start the cycle again
    Given Firim specifically mentions how reality is a complete mystery to him, this might be the way it will play out.
    The six cosmic forces already existed, the First Ones ordered them to interact with reality in weird ways, then left it to create the cosmos for reasons that completely baffles Firim.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  19. #68979
    People talking about Avaloren/Avalon. There is a scarlet crusade town in the DK starting zone that's called "new avalon". So we might be visiting the "old" avalon? Might be a scarlet crusade stronghold?
    I will not reply to posts that are non-constructive or contain flaming and/or trolling.

  20. #68980
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Or alternatively, the seventh force is reality. Which leaves the players, the metaphorical children of all the forces, against the remaining six. A final battle for control of Azeroth as the likely nexus of the cosmos.
    Cosmogonic myths often establish something existing before reality is created. Whatever that something is, will imo be the Seventh Force. It is what was displaced to make room for Reality. Originally I thought it was the Devourers. Now I assume it's whatever that great serpent watching us from space was.

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