1. #69081
    Quote Originally Posted by MightyWarrior View Post
    All this is very confusing for a mongo like myself.. whos hyped for Dragonflight though? Pre patch in a week!
    Real hyped!
    Though admittedly said hype has hit a snag with me getting fed up with MM Hunter. I need to consider whether to swap main to something else, probably either DK or Warrior, or whether it's just a temporary break in the relationship until I come crawling back to my beloved main.
    Hopefully the new talent trees should help me decide what kind of playstyle I prefer.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiivar86 View Post
    I'm more hyped for Dragonflight than I was for Shadowlands. Pre-launch of Shadowlands, I remember feeling hesitant, but I'm not for Dragonflight.
    Pretty much the same here. I was not really all that into SL as a concept, whereas I am looking forward to the more grounded fantasy of DF in comparision.
    Still not nearly as hyped as I was for BfA though, that expansion looked on the surface like all my wow wet dreams had come at once.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  2. #69082
    Dragonflight probably has a lot more hype solely from the fact there is no major system gimmick grind this time around.

  3. #69083
    Quote Originally Posted by Gifdwarf View Post
    Dragonflight probably has a lot more hype solely from the fact there is no major system gimmick grind this time around.
    That is definitely a nice change of pace. Should make it easier to try out other alts without feeling like you are playing a gimped version. Absolutely hate how I load up an alt and see poorly optimized legendaries, and needing to check up optimized soulbinds in order to feel like I am not playing a self-imposed challenge.
    Just being able to log onto an alt and knowing that all that stands between me and optimal play is gear and skill is quite refreshing.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  4. #69084
    Quote Originally Posted by Gifdwarf View Post
    Dragonflight probably has a lot more hype solely from the fact there is no major system gimmick grind this time around.
    Agreed, along with the general tone of it being more interesting than Danuser's Cosmic Wild Ride. The whole thing really feels much more like Classic in terms of scope and style, and that's not even mentioning the return of actual talents.
    Last edited by Le Conceptuel; 2022-10-18 at 12:19 PM.

  5. #69085
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    and that's not even mentioning the return of actual talents.
    People will complain it's just illusion of choice, but I'd much prefer illusion of choice than just 7 talents to pick from. Even if people go with meta builds if they want to at least the choice is there.

  6. #69086
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gifdwarf View Post
    People will complain it's just illusion of choice, but I'd much prefer illusion of choice than just 7 talents to pick from. Even if people go with meta builds if they want to at least the choice is there.
    Illusion or no, the new Talent system in Dragonflight already feels a lot better to me just in terms of being able to fine-tune and change up my playstyle without making massive swings in power or comprehensive useability like the previous Talent system. The ability to have multiple presets or loadouts also makes it easier for me to shift between overworld adventuring, running Mythics, or raiding without the same aforementioned gaps or loss in ability. There were always be optimal builds for any given task, but the new system's freedom to change and adapt is very welcome.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  7. #69087
    Quote Originally Posted by Gifdwarf View Post
    Dragonflight probably has a lot more hype solely from the fact there is no major system gimmick grind this time around.
    Curious, based on what, how do you come to that conclusion?
    _______

    While I really like the new profession icons in a vacuum, I'm sad to see the old ones go. They have been such a staple for all of WoW's life cycle, getting new ones feels weird, although I understand the update.
    Last edited by Nyel; 2022-10-18 at 01:02 PM.
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  8. #69088
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Curious, based on what, how do you come to that conclusion?.
    I recall a massive sense of dread about how covenants worked just before the launch of SL, Dragonflight having basically nothing other than talents, dragonriding talents and renown as reputations is very refreshing.

  9. #69089
    Pandaren Monk AngerFork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyWarrior View Post
    All this is very confusing for a mongo like myself.. whos hyped for Dragonflight though? Pre patch in a week!
    Super hyped! New class for the first time since Legion which absolutely feels different from any other class. A plot that feels very much like what WoW should feel like as opposed to bizarre afterlife stuff. No required grinds to raid or whatever else. UI & Talent updates to refresh how the game feels. There's a lot to be excited about IMO!

    I will say I do wish they'd delay it by a month for bug fixes (there's still lots of weird ones), but thus far there's a lot of good to be found here!

  10. #69090
    I would love to think Blizzard has finally learned its lesson with borrowed power/systems, but the stone-hearted part of me fully expects them to put one in at some point during Dragonflight's lifespan.

  11. #69091
    Quote Originally Posted by Gifdwarf View Post
    People will complain it's just illusion of choice, but I'd much prefer illusion of choice than just 7 talents to pick from. Even if people go with meta builds if they want to at least the choice is there.
    Absolutely. Even a facsimile of RPG elements would be better than the set of lobby game-tier traits we're given currently. Even then, the increased flexibility may allow for some flexibility among viable builds, even if viable builds will be grossly outnumbered by nonviable builds.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Illusion or no, the new Talent system in Dragonflight already feels a lot better to me just in terms of being able to fine-tune and change up my playstyle without making massive swings in power or comprehensive useability like the previous Talent system. The ability to have multiple presets or loadouts also makes it easier for me to shift between overworld adventuring, running Mythics, or raiding without the same aforementioned gaps or loss in ability. There were always be optimal builds for any given task, but the new system's freedom to change and adapt is very welcome.
    Effectively my feelings on the matter.

  12. #69092
    Quote Originally Posted by Gifdwarf View Post
    People will complain it's just illusion of choice, but I'd much prefer illusion of choice than just 7 talents to pick from. Even if people go with meta builds if they want to at least the choice is there.
    exactly this. But this is MMO Champion, like reddit, they will always complain. There is not a day where people agree that anything in WoW is a good change. And then they wonder why Blizzard doesn't listen.

  13. #69093
    Quote Originally Posted by 8bithamster View Post
    exactly this. But this is MMO Champion, like reddit, they will always complain. There is not a day where people agree that anything in WoW is a good change. And then they wonder why Blizzard doesn't listen.
    I don't think that's fair. It's not infrequently that MMO-Champion or any other forum will speak well of a good and sustainable decision, and it is similarly not infrequently that the playerbase clearly articulates the need for something to change or not to change, and in the latter case it is certainly not their fault that Blizzard fails to account for this complaint. The playerbase is not always consistent, and they're not often very articulate, but there are many complaints regarding the current state of WoW which are entirely valid.

  14. #69094
    Quote Originally Posted by Gloriandus View Post
    I would love to think Blizzard has finally learned its lesson with borrowed power/systems, but the stone-hearted part of me fully expects them to put one in at some point during Dragonflight's lifespan.
    So long as it's the final patch then I wouldn't really mind. There are only so many ways to make the player feel stronger without just pumping the stats, so adding something towards the end like a legendary ring might be alright.

    So long as it's not something that compounds on itself like BfA with Azerote, essences, and the cloak, I think it's fair to the developers to give an easy power boost.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  15. #69095
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    I don't think that's fair. It's not infrequently that MMO-Champion or any other forum will speak well of a good and sustainable decision, and it is similarly not infrequently that the playerbase clearly articulates the need for something to change or not to change, and in the latter case it is certainly not their fault that Blizzard fails to account for this complaint. The playerbase is not always consistent, and they're not often very articulate, but there are many complaints regarding the current state of WoW which are entirely valid.

    Sure, please provide me any topic about class changes here where people articulated thoughtful, decent feedback instead of the drooling "Omg asmongold says it sucks therefor it sucks! See blizzard never listens." Let's just list the reasons why DF will suck according to this thread alone:

    Shadow Priest "lead developer" quit and absolutely hated the class and made it their life goal to screw over the class as much as possible

    DF is a self insert party for Danuser after he liked it so much in Shadowlands, that's why all the lore will suck, and has ever sucked ever in the warcraft universe

    DF will be the worst expansion after Shadowlands, and MoP and Legion/BFA were amazing expansions.

    <insert photoshop here> is clearly superior to whatever blizzard did, please hire this person, disregarding any animations, rigging etc required

    <insert game here> is vastly superior to WoW nowadays, and blizzard should blatantly steal from that game

    <insert lore topic here> completely sucks because Blizzard sucks at writing

    What is the common factor here? A complete lack of productive feedback. It's all X sucks and omg blizzard sucks. There's barely any informed discussion, just inane rambling. So why would Blizzard read it? When people can't even articulate their opinion without shoving in "X sucks because I say so! And look, this random youtuber agrees. And whatever this youtuber says is absolute truth"?

  16. #69096
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I honestly expected them to nerf Prot before Ret. The ST AS build was oppressive in PvP and could match most dps in PvE while building constant absorb shields.
    What is this ST AS build, I'm guessing Avenger Shield. What made it so strong that it could compete with DPS in PvE?

    Quote Originally Posted by UndedoKoleda View Post
    There is nothing about that...



    Given that the Titans are straight out trying to conceal the existence of the First Ones, it seems unlikely that they hold them in high enough regard, to follow unquestionably their rules.
    Yeah. Automa are robots. The Pantheon of Death, although using advanced Automa bodies, seem to be Higher Souls possessing the bodies ("Bereft of the cosmic spirits of the Eternal Ones, these incomplete host bodies can only carry out their base directives without mercy or compassion." from the Prototype Pantheon adventure guide).

    Unsure whether they are the "piece of Architect that a First One put into each Cosmology" ("They came together (or were brought together, depending on how one interprets the fractal) and gave form to their design. Forged? Scribed? Shaped? The exact word is elusive. Each architect gave a portion of themselves, and thus the pattern was drawn." from https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Exp..._A37J_-_Part_1 ) or something else though.
    By Blizzard Entertainment:
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  17. #69097
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Well you don't call a spec that is performing extremely well yet has a boring talent tree a joke. That much seems fairly objective. Ret was a joke in much of the beta indeed, a very bad joke for anyone trying to PvP against them getting destroyed in seconds.
    Quote Originally Posted by 8bithamster View Post
    The spec is not a joke.. wonky talent trees =/= spec is a joke. Nice try though!
    Either me, or you two, is complete misunderstanding his post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    You confuse what DF is; it's shadowlands with most of the borrowed-power baked in. The rest? Same systems, same design philosophy, same everything. I have been following beta closely this time, if you haven't, let me enlighten you; they ignored pretty much all the feedback. In SL, the ignored the problems with covenants. In DF, they are ignoring problems with talents. Retri is a fucking joke. DH is ok number wise, but the design philosophy there is a fucking joke. Evoker is not ready to ship. And from what I read, Shadow Priests, Guardian Druids are fucked too. They are now preparing the addict masses to the new idea that each expansion is going to have 8 and only 8 new dungeons. Half of it at the start and other half after months, and the rest is rehashed shit. That's effectively 4 new dungeons. It is beyond me why there is not a community outrage about the amount of content we are getting...Dragonflight will go live with broken classes and extremely poor content to bump 4th quarterly results.

    This expansion is bound to fail.
    I read that as I complaint about the core system(s)- in this case the new talents. He is not talking about numbers balance(which could change at literally any point), he is talking about the overall idea behind the new talents compared to old and how some specs, in his opinion, have it underwhelming(which if go live like this, are unlikely to get changes till some big 10.x patch). He is even giving as example how they (mis)handled the Beta feedback about the Covenants... It certainly wasn't about numbers back then, but about the way the entire system was functioning.

    The very same thing was said by the retri paladin guide author, that I linked earlier today.

    https://www.wowhead.com/news/retribu...nt-tree-329400
    To put it bluntly, Retribution's talent trees are not in a good spot - we've had mostly the same issues for essentially the entirety of Alpha/Beta, there's been few changes made, and even less communication about them. With the "design" phase over and the "tuning" phase underway, it's unfortunately extremely unlikely that many of these glaring issues are addressed before prepatch or launch, so this may serve more as a post about what should be changed in 10.1 rather than before launch.
    So lets wait for the poster in question to clarify what did he mean(if he feels like it).
    unclench your jaw

  18. #69098
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    I don't think that's fair. It's not infrequently that MMO-Champion or any other forum will speak well of a good and sustainable decision, and it is similarly not infrequently that the playerbase clearly articulates the need for something to change or not to change, and in the latter case it is certainly not their fault that Blizzard fails to account for this complaint. The playerbase is not always consistent, and they're not often very articulate, but there are many complaints regarding the current state of WoW which are entirely valid.
    You put too much faith in MMO-Champion posters...
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  19. #69099
    Quote Originally Posted by Auxis View Post
    What is this ST AS build, I'm guessing Avenger Shield. What made it so strong that it could compete with DPS in PvE?
    ST for single target. You could change AS to be completely ST and triple its damage with Focused Enmity. The talent was nerfed to only double its damage. A second talent increased AS' damage by +50% on primary target (was nerfed to +30%). Combined you had AS hit like a truck, convert half that damage into shields, deal splash damage, reduce damage done by the target by 6% and increase block by 10%. Add Divine Toll with Divine Resonance and alternate it with Moment of Glory and it was extremely effective.
    It is still just as effective in AoE btw; when you switch to the AoE talent instead of Enmity to add two more targets to AS and probably switch to the talent that gives you 2% parry per target hit by AS (+10% parry in AoE packs increasing your Grand Crusader procs for even more AS spam). Anyway Prot definitely gets to live their Captain America fantasy.

  20. #69100
    Quote Originally Posted by Auxis View Post
    Yeah. Automa are robots. The Pantheon of Death, although using advanced Automa bodies, seem to be Higher Souls possessing the bodies ("Bereft of the cosmic spirits of the Eternal Ones, these incomplete host bodies can only carry out their base directives without mercy or compassion." from the Prototype Pantheon adventure guide).

    Unsure whether they are the "piece of Architect that a First One put into each Cosmology" ("They came together (or were brought together, depending on how one interprets the fractal) and gave form to their design. Forged? Scribed? Shaped? The exact word is elusive. Each architect gave a portion of themselves, and thus the pattern was drawn." from https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Exp..._A37J_-_Part_1 ) or something else though.
    Unless Blizzard retcon it, the Titans are born out of World Souls, they are not made on an assembly line, like the Eternal Ones.
    unclench your jaw

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