1. #69561
    Quote Originally Posted by UndedoKoleda View Post
    Funny, that you say that and right after wowhead posts this article-

    https://www.wowhead.com/news/retribu...nt-tree-329400

    Their ret paladin guide writer is not happy with the current state of the spec on beta.
    The complaints however are not that the class is not effective. It's that the trees, especially the class tree, are fucking boring and a complete railroad.

  2. #69562
    Quote Originally Posted by UndedoKoleda View Post
    Funny, that you say that and right after wowhead posts this article-

    https://www.wowhead.com/news/retribu...nt-tree-329400

    Their ret paladin guide writer is not happy with the current state of the spec on beta.
    Which literally says that the spec itself is performing fine, it's just that the tree is shit. Exactly. Thank you for proving my point!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Man View Post
    A big issue is mainly its boring and the class tree has little choice but yeah people saying it's trash or broken are just toddlers
    Exactly this.. but hey, apparently people can't distinguish between bad tree and performance. Same shit, different expansion. People will cry that it sucks like every other damn expansion, and a few expansions later "Remember how good SL/DF was? Such an amazing expansion!"

  3. #69563
    Quote Originally Posted by 8bithamster View Post
    Exactly this.. but hey, apparently people can't distinguish between bad tree and performance.
    Nuance and MMO-Champion—never shall the two meet.

  4. #69564
    Quote Originally Posted by 8bithamster View Post
    Which literally says that the spec itself is performing fine, it's just that the tree is shit. Exactly. Thank you for proving my point!
    The person you quoted literally said "In DF, they are ignoring problems with talents. Retri is a fucking joke.". So what is your point, again?
    unclench your jaw

  5. #69565
    Quote Originally Posted by UndedoKoleda View Post
    The person you quoted literally said "In DF, they are ignoring problems with talents. Retri is a fucking joke.". So what is your point, again?
    The spec is not "a fucking joke". It performed so absurdly strong they had to nerf it and it still performs well. Given in the very next sentence the poster say another spec's numbers are stong, the implication is fairly clear that he believes ret does not output well which is grossly untrue.

  6. #69566
    I guess we'll have to ask @Kuntantee to clarify exactly what he meant.
    unclench your jaw

  7. #69567
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Your other argument is mostly fair. However, it still strike me as odd that there occurred a substantial drop in searches specifically simultaneous with the apex of Shadowlands. There was previously a very consistent rate at which the search rate was decreasingly steadily. The drop-off which occurred after Shadowlands was far more severe.
    Well, did you look for correlations with reporting, or did you just go and assume it must be something with the game itself?

    Your other claim just keeps getting more unconvincing. They didn't do that with WoD either. That's not how their planning and dev pipelines work, those decisions were already made long before the actual problems became visible. That you have difficulty interpreting it a certain way is not evidence that it was so, only a limit to your own capabilities. Plausible does not mean likely.

    Quote Originally Posted by UndedoKoleda View Post
    Given that the Titans are straight out trying to conceal the existence of the First Ones, it seems unlikely that they hold them in high enough regard, to follow unquestionably their rules.
    Odyn is not a Titan. We never actually got the Titan's perspective on this given that we had all of 10 minutes to talk to them, most of which was taken up trying to get Argus put to rest and the rest was mostly saying bye.

    Odyn being something of a jerk who always thinks he knows better (and is fairly often wrong) is pretty well-established by now, too.

  8. #69568
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Well, did you look for correlations with reporting, or did you just go and assume it must be something with the game itself?

    Your other claim just keeps getting more unconvincing. They didn't do that with WoD either. That's not how their planning and dev pipelines work, those decisions were already made long before the actual problems became visible. That you have difficulty interpreting it a certain way is not evidence that it was so, only a limit to your own capabilities. Plausible does not mean likely.
    Aside from the quality of the expansion itself, the only other reason I could see for the decreased engagement is the lawsuits, which I believe began around the time that the dip occurred. I could attribute the loss of engagement to a desire to avoid Blizzard products, but that still would also suggest a likely decrease in subscriber count.

    Also, just because I'm a pedantic fuck

    Quote Originally Posted by Oxford English Dictionary
    Of an argument, an idea, a statement, etc.: seeming reasonable, probable, or truthful; convincing, believable
    "Probable" is contained as an implication of "plausible", "probable" means "likely". Plausible does actually have interchangeability with likely.

  9. #69569
    Quote Originally Posted by UndedoKoleda View Post
    I guess we'll have to ask @Kuntantee to clarify exactly what he meant.
    Well you don't call a spec that is performing extremely well yet has a boring talent tree a joke. That much seems fairly objective. Ret was a joke in much of the beta indeed, a very bad joke for anyone trying to PvP against them getting destroyed in seconds.

  10. #69570
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    "Probable" is contained as an implication of "plausible", "probable" means "likely". Plausible does actually have interchangeability with likely.
    Two key words you missed: 'seeming', i.e. it only indicates an appearance of being reasonable, probable or truthfull and 'or', i.e. it isn't necessarily all of those. Also notable are the other two words. Convincing and believable don't map to probable at all, but do map with seeming reasonable and seeming probable.

    They actually aren't interchangeable as plausible implies that the matter in question appears a certain way, not that it is such.

  11. #69571
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Two key words you missed: 'seeming', i.e. it only indicates an appearance of being reasonable, probable or truthfull and 'or', i.e. it isn't necessarily all of those. Also notable are the other two words. Convincing and believable don't map to probable at all, but do map with seeming reasonable and seeming probable.

    They actually aren't interchangeable as plausible implies that the matter in question appears a certain way, not that it is such.
    Fair enough, but it does potentially imply probability. Still, that's beside the point—what I was primarily saying is that I have checked for alternative causality and found little. There exist two feasible reasons for the abrupt dip in engagement I noticed, which is that it either emerged as a result of the lawsuits, or that it emerged as a result of a subpar expansion. The general sentiment I've picked up from the various forums I've visited is that it is likely a little bit of both. These sentiments would likely coincide with a drop in subscriber numbers.
    Last edited by Le Conceptuel; 2022-10-18 at 12:00 PM.

  12. #69572
    All this is very confusing for a mongo like myself.. whos hyped for Dragonflight though? Pre patch in a week!

  13. #69573
    Quote Originally Posted by UndedoKoleda View Post
    The person you quoted literally said "In DF, they are ignoring problems with talents. Retri is a fucking joke.". So what is your point, again?
    The spec is not a joke.. wonky talent trees =/= spec is a joke. Nice try though!

  14. #69574
    Quote Originally Posted by MightyWarrior View Post
    All this is very confusing for a mongo like myself.. whos hyped for Dragonflight though? Pre patch in a week!
    I'm more hyped for Dragonflight than I was for Shadowlands. Pre-launch of Shadowlands, I remember feeling hesitant, but I'm not for Dragonflight.

  15. #69575
    Quote Originally Posted by MightyWarrior View Post
    All this is very confusing for a mongo like myself.. whos hyped for Dragonflight though? Pre patch in a week!
    Real hyped!
    Though admittedly said hype has hit a snag with me getting fed up with MM Hunter. I need to consider whether to swap main to something else, probably either DK or Warrior, or whether it's just a temporary break in the relationship until I come crawling back to my beloved main.
    Hopefully the new talent trees should help me decide what kind of playstyle I prefer.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiivar86 View Post
    I'm more hyped for Dragonflight than I was for Shadowlands. Pre-launch of Shadowlands, I remember feeling hesitant, but I'm not for Dragonflight.
    Pretty much the same here. I was not really all that into SL as a concept, whereas I am looking forward to the more grounded fantasy of DF in comparision.
    Still not nearly as hyped as I was for BfA though, that expansion looked on the surface like all my wow wet dreams had come at once.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  16. #69576
    Dragonflight probably has a lot more hype solely from the fact there is no major system gimmick grind this time around.

  17. #69577
    Quote Originally Posted by Gifdwarf View Post
    Dragonflight probably has a lot more hype solely from the fact there is no major system gimmick grind this time around.
    That is definitely a nice change of pace. Should make it easier to try out other alts without feeling like you are playing a gimped version. Absolutely hate how I load up an alt and see poorly optimized legendaries, and needing to check up optimized soulbinds in order to feel like I am not playing a self-imposed challenge.
    Just being able to log onto an alt and knowing that all that stands between me and optimal play is gear and skill is quite refreshing.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  18. #69578
    Quote Originally Posted by Gifdwarf View Post
    Dragonflight probably has a lot more hype solely from the fact there is no major system gimmick grind this time around.
    Agreed, along with the general tone of it being more interesting than Danuser's Cosmic Wild Ride. The whole thing really feels much more like Classic in terms of scope and style, and that's not even mentioning the return of actual talents.
    Last edited by Le Conceptuel; 2022-10-18 at 12:19 PM.

  19. #69579
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    and that's not even mentioning the return of actual talents.
    People will complain it's just illusion of choice, but I'd much prefer illusion of choice than just 7 talents to pick from. Even if people go with meta builds if they want to at least the choice is there.

  20. #69580
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gifdwarf View Post
    People will complain it's just illusion of choice, but I'd much prefer illusion of choice than just 7 talents to pick from. Even if people go with meta builds if they want to at least the choice is there.
    Illusion or no, the new Talent system in Dragonflight already feels a lot better to me just in terms of being able to fine-tune and change up my playstyle without making massive swings in power or comprehensive useability like the previous Talent system. The ability to have multiple presets or loadouts also makes it easier for me to shift between overworld adventuring, running Mythics, or raiding without the same aforementioned gaps or loss in ability. There were always be optimal builds for any given task, but the new system's freedom to change and adapt is very welcome.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

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