Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Makabreska]

It would be nice if they got their immortality back.

What would be nice about it? Sacrificing it in W3 allowed them relate more to mortal races, forced them to open up to the world and form a better alliances. Suddenly regaining it would be weird AF and would serve no real purpose, beside making them suddenly stand out.

[Xilurm]

What would be nice about it? Sacrificing it in W3 allowed them relate more to mortal races, forced them to open up to the world and form a better alliances. Suddenly regaining it would be weird AF and would serve no real purpose, beside making them suddenly stand out.

Relate aka make them purple humans. I'm so tired of this.

Why would it be weird? Don't think they would suddenly stand out either, they already live very long lives, it wouldn't matter.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

What would be nice about it? Sacrificing it in W3 allowed them relate more to mortal races, forced them to open up to the world and form a better alliances. Suddenly regaining it would be weird AF and would serve no real purpose, beside making them suddenly stand out.

Really its almost immortality, if it was they'd never die and well that wasn't true before the lost it. Not succombing to aging is certainly not a bad thing and storywise, I have a hard time believing players give a damn if Nelves can't age/be ageless.

[Makabreska]

Relate aka make them purple humans. I'm so tired of this.

Why would it be weird? Don't think they would suddenly stand out either, they already live very long lives, it wouldn't matter.

So why bring it back, if it doesn't matter? That is a pretty big story development for a single race. Also, it would not suddenly and magically change their writing.

[Xilurm]

So why bring it back, if it doesn't matter? That is a pretty big story development for a single race. Also, it would not suddenly and magically change their writing.

It doesn't matter in the sense it won't matter to the other races. It would be a nice little win for the Nelf players/fans though. Also, if they can put a meaningless wedding in-game they can do this.

Speaking of which, are Dracthyr immortal?

[huth]

It would be nice if they got their immortality back.

It would be completely irrelevant within the timeframe of the game. Even without their immortality, elves can reach over a millenium. The game won't span a timeframe where any elven character even noticeably ages.

[Xilurm]

It would be completely irrelevant within the timeframe of the game. Even without their immortality, elves can reach over a millenium. The game won't span a timeframe where any elven character even noticeably ages.

Yes, but it's the thought that counts.

[Nymrohd]

It would be completely irrelevant within the timeframe of the game. Even without their immortality, elves can reach over a millenium. The game won't span a timeframe where any elven character even noticeably ages.

We did have the plot of an elderly night elf looking to regain their immortality back in MoP. Ofc most of them probably got BBQ'd by the Horde so it's not nearly as important a plot point anymore; the Night Elves had a much more burning confrontation with mortality than just aging.

[Luck4]

The Horde equivalent of a restored Gilneas is the Bilgewater city in Azshara, which they have had since Cataclysm.

This is why we need a World Revamp, while Alliance gets Gilneas back Blizzard can send Bilgewater offshore into the sea and remake it as a minor city because people from both factions want something, but the problem is that only Alliance has been losing stuff, so the only way to avoid drama while giving Alliance stuff back is by revamping the existing Horde counterpart stuff they've never lost.

Yet, it's funny to see that some people think that for every Alliance loss the Horde also lost something, which isn't the case since Cataclysm.

[Kiria]

considering the previous EK/Kalimdor revamp is arguably the single most hated thing in WoW, why on earth do you think they would make the colossal mistake of repeating it?

This is extremely untrue, Cata revamp came with some of the best new questing experience one could want... I was just saying last night how much I enjoyed Cata compared to classic while levelling a new warlock.

[Varodoc]

This is why we need a World Revamp, while Alliance gets Gilneas back Blizzard can send Bilgewater offshore into the sea and remake it as a minor city because people from both factions want something, but the problem is that only Alliance has been losing stuff, so the only way to avoid drama while giving Alliance stuff back is by revamping the existing Horde counterpart stuff they've never lost.

Yet, it's funny to see that some people think that for every Alliance loss the Horde also lost something, which isn't the case since Cataclysm.

Indeed. It wasn't the case in BfA either.

Because, while all of Teldrassil was annihilated, the Forsaken still retained their holdings in Tirisfal around the Capital City (Deathknell, the Bulwark, Calston Estate). This is a truth that some Horde players unfortunately failed to grasp, as they genuinely believed the loss of Teldrassil was mirrored by the loss of Undercity. Even though it wasn't the case, since the elves lost their ENTIRE ZONE, while the Forsaken lost only the capital city, but retained other holdings in the zone.

The Alliance has always lost more than the Horde.

This is evident in Cataclysm, where the Bilgewater goblin built a new city in Azshara and took over the entire region, while the Worgen lived as refugees in Darnassus. And while Gallywix had an entire mountain range sculpted to resemble his face, Greymane was living as a disgraced butler to Varian.

When Gilneas is restored, the Horde doesn't deserve anything in return. The goblin, the Worgen's Horde counterpart, already got their restoration in Cataclysm.

So the Night elves will restore their homeland by using the new world seed (mirroring the restoration of the Ruins of Lordaeron), and the Worgen will restore Gilneas. But the Horde is done with their restorations, they don't deserve anything else.

[Makabreska]

We did have the plot of an elderly night elf looking to regain their immortality back in MoP. Ofc most of them probably got BBQ'd by the Horde so it's not nearly as important a plot point anymore; the Night Elves had a much more burning confrontation with mortality than just aging.

In that questline he realized the folly of that endeavour, when he sees his daughter die during the fight with Mogu. He then sacrifices himself to bring her back. This story basically shows nelves ditching any attempts at immortality. Sure, it's a side quest from 8y ago, but it nicely shown they really don't need pre-W3 state to be restored.

[Nymrohd]

In that questline he realized the folly of that endeavour, when he sees his daughter die during the fight with Mogu. He then sacrifices himself to bring her back. This story basically shows nelves ditching any attempts at immortality. Sure, it's a side quest from 8y ago, but it nicely shown they really don't need pre-W3 state to be restored.

Sure, he believed that. Fandral did not and many night elves did not either or else he wouldn't have had such an easy job recruiting. And after the War of Thorns more of them will be questioning their culture as we can see with plenty of them joining the Primalists. All I am saying is, this can easily be revisited by Blizzard. If anything, the futility of the Afterlife being laid bare for all to see should make more night elves seek back immortality, not less. And given it was once handed by the Aspects who refused it the second time (with Noz not blessing Teldrassil), claiming it by force via the Primalist cause could be a storyline for them. Sadly so far in Dragonflight the villains lack any nuance in their stories.

[Murlocos]

I imagine Blizzard saw the world revamp as a poison pill: it absolutely needed to be done at some point, questing was rapidly evolving and the stuff we have in 2010 Cata is much closer to 2022 modern questing than 2004 vanilla to Cata, but it was a huge amount of effort just for a good chunk of the playerbase to mostly ignore it and complain about a lack of endgame content. It was a long term investment that's paid off down the line, some of the revamped zones (Silverpine, Hillsbrad, Redridge, Duskwood, Loch Modan, etc.) still see plenty of players because the questing flow is so smooth and the exp rates so high.

Semi-related, am I crazy or did Blizzard comment at some point that splitting up the 80-85 zones was a mistake and not something they wanted to repeat again? Either way, SL showed it definitely doesn't work out well. Hell, BfA could get annoying with loading screens hopping back and forth between the islands.

[Makabreska]

Sure, he believed that. Fandral did not and many night elves did not either or else he wouldn't have had such an easy job recruiting. And after the War of Thorns more of them will be questioning their culture as we can see with plenty of them joining the Primalists. All I am saying is, this can easily be revisited by Blizzard. If anything, the futility of the Afterlife being laid bare for all to see should make more night elves seek back immortality, not less. And given it was once handed by the Aspects who refused it the second time (with Noz not blessing Teldrassil), claiming it by force via the Primalist cause could be a storyline for them. Sadly so far in Dragonflight the villains lack any nuance in their stories.

Is this a reliable metric? Do we have some info specifically saying nelves ale plenty in their ranks? Because most big cults so far (Cult of the Damned or Twilight) had basically all races in the fold. Also, Fandral example should rather show them how foolish it is to chase immortality and how hard it can backfire on them when they ally themselves with dubious powers.

[Nymrohd]

I imagine Blizzard saw the world revamp as a poison pill: it absolutely needed to be done at some point, questing was rapidly evolving and the stuff we have in 2010 Cata is much closer to 2022 modern questing than 2004 vanilla to Cata, but it was a huge amount of effort just for a good chunk of the playerbase to mostly ignore it and complain about a lack of endgame content. It was a long term investment that's paid off down the line, some of the revamped zones (Silverpine, Hillsbrad, Redridge, Duskwood, Loch Modan, etc.) still see plenty of players because the questing flow is so smooth and the exp rates so high.

Semi-related, am I crazy or did Blizzard comment at some point that splitting up the 80-85 zones was a mistake and not something they wanted to repeat again? Either way, SL showed it definitely doesn't work out well. Hell, BfA could get annoying with loading screens hopping back and forth between the islands.

They did say that and then made a worse version of it with Shadowlands

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Is this a reliable metric? Do we have some info specifically saying nelves ale plenty in their ranks? Because most big cults so far (Cult of the Damned or Twilight) had basically all races in the fold. Also, Fandral example should rather show them how foolish it is to chase immortality and how hard it can backfire on them when they ally themselves with dubious powers.

I think this is an interesting discussion to have; the Primalists seem to be entirely Night Elves, Tauren and Trolls. Most other Cults as you said had members from all races. I assume that was a conscious choice.

[Jaggler]

They did say that and then made a worse version of it with Shadowlands

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I think this is an interesting discussion to have; the Primalists seem to be entirely Night Elves, Tauren and Trolls. Most other Cults as you said had members from all races. I assume that was a conscious choice.

It would make sense if the primalists wouldn't want to take offspring of titan-forged races in (though tauren and nelves were slightly titan "corrupted")

[Auxis]

I don't think Avaloren is a world tree, it is most likely some kind of fortress, overtaken titan structure (not a facility as they don't say Uld) or an old name for some place we already know by a different name (I like the theory that it's North EK).

It could just be a new continent but I think it'll have to be relevant to DF in some way.

I agree. If Avaloren was so difficult to get to, why would it be difficult to get to something that is practically within the confines of the Dragon Isles - a group of islands containing a titan facility or 2? I highly doubt "heretics" (whatever they may be) would escape to something sitting on their enemies doorstep. It's just not all that defensive of a position like the titanforged reports are making it out to be.

[Shadochi]

I imagine Blizzard saw the world revamp as a poison pill: it absolutely needed to be done at some point, questing was rapidly evolving and the stuff we have in 2010 Cata is much closer to 2022 modern questing than 2004 vanilla to Cata, but it was a huge amount of effort just for a good chunk of the playerbase to mostly ignore it and complain about a lack of endgame content. It was a long term investment that's paid off down the line, some of the revamped zones (Silverpine, Hillsbrad, Redridge, Duskwood, Loch Modan, etc.) still see plenty of players because the questing flow is so smooth and the exp rates so high.

Semi-related, am I crazy or did Blizzard comment at some point that splitting up the 80-85 zones was a mistake and not something they wanted to repeat again? Either way, SL showed it definitely doesn't work out well. Hell, BfA could get annoying with loading screens hopping back and forth between the islands.

I'd argue that questing and zone flow is more different now compared to Cate-era zones than it was in your example. Also take into consideration that they didn't do the revamp because the questing changed with expansions and was a steep difference, since that would mean that there was a huge difference in questing between vanilla and Wrath zones so in Cata they had to update the EK and Kali experiences. The major changes to flows were brought with the revamp, not the other way around that revamp was brought because prior major changes.

And IMO we had minor changes each expansion since Cata (new quest types and such) BUT with WoD and forward there were major changes to how zones flow. WoD was the first one IIRC that introduced chapters and campaigns to zones, whereas the MoP and earlier leveling zones had the achievement be only Complete X Quests in zone. And if you compare doing the zone achievemnt from an old zone to doing one for a current zone you would notice that in the old ones with the update where we now do have "Chapters", they are pretty much still all quests in a zone, while in newer zones they are only the main campaign without any side questlines.

Also new zones have a lot more phasing and cutscenes used than the old world. Bonus objectives.

So I think the premise that there is a bigger difference in 2004-2010 compared to 2010-2022 is flawed. And a presumed revamp would bring also new major developments like in 2010 compared to what we had before.



On topic of revamps:

Another major thing is that we had a few Cataclysm-level (or larger) events since then. And the world doesn't reflect that. We also had (with launch of Dragonflight) 12 new races join one or both factions that are unrepresented at all in the old world.

My ideal world revamp wouldn't specifically revolve around a new expansion world shattering event, but making it evergreen (and then when a Invasion event happens in a zone in the future keep the aftermath). Keep the outlines of the continents revamped, but don't need to keep all the zones, some might've merged or split and such. Have the races that have joined the game since then have settlements (quest hubs) and such. Also a great opportunity to develop a new cast of lore characters. Make the capitals also much larger.


And now this part is really wishful thinking, but an expansion that did this could have really unique set of content for Seasons. Revamp a set of the old world dungeons/create similar new dungeons and have them be in revamped zones, do that each season and rotate out all or half the dungeons with new/updated ones (this is less work than it seems from an assets PoV since a lot of dungeons share assets from their zones).

[Nymrohd]

Honestly I think we first need to see how they can make older content evergreen. Utilize what concept they come up with in a modern xpac (MoP or later), get proof of concept working. Then do a revamp. A revamp that doesn't add evergreen content is a waste of time for anyone but RPers (and I say that as an RPer); collectors will blitz through the new achievements and find the new toys and pets and that will be it, possible done as fast as the prepatch for many.