Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Paula Deen]

Honestly I think we first need to see how they can make older content evergreen. Utilize what concept they come up with in a modern xpac (MoP or later), get proof of concept working. Then do a revamp. A revamp that doesn't add evergreen content is a waste of time for anyone but RPers (and I say that as an RPer); collectors will blitz through the new achievements and find the new toys and pets and that will be it, possible done as fast as the prepatch for many.

It's quite clear they are heading this direction with Dragon Riding, Professions, and Invasions at expac launch in DF.

I'd guess these are all features they are gonna look at closely for adaption to the whole world. Dragon Riding is gonna have amazing implications out of everything. They would need some crazy good world design (which in all fairness they do have) to make something that massive happen. It would probably be either regional or continent sized. As in just Khaz Modan or just Lordaeron or just Northern Kalimdor.

But I mean the dream of an evergreen world revamp has been floated since before Legion leaked and never happened and the more likely instance is that we never get one and they stay true to what they said in BFA: They will update things as it makes sense.

[Sondrelk]

It's quite clear they are heading this direction with Dragon Riding, Professions, and Invasions at expac launch in DF.

I'd guess these are all features they are gonna look at closely for adaption to the whole world. Dragon Riding is gonna have amazing implications out of everything. They would need some crazy good world design (which in all fairness they do have) to make something that massive happen. It would probably be either regional or continent sized. As in just Khaz Modan or just Lordaeron or just Northern Kalimdor.

But I mean the dream of an evergreen world revamp has been floated since before Legion leaked and never happened and the more likely instance is that we never get one and they stay true to what they said in BFA: They will update things as it makes sense.

The thing with a world revamp is that the choice eventually becomes either having one, or not having new expansion continents.

With the Dragon Isles we have officially exhausted all large unexplored areas on Azeroth that has not itself been hinted at previously.

Any expansion after this one will have to draw from a completely new pool of locations if it wants ot be on Azeroth, barring making areas like Tel'abim or similar an entire expansion.
Underground Azeroth is an option, but given how disparate the interesting underground areas are I imagine this is better served as parts of a larger expansion, rather than cramming all of them together.

The backside of Azeroth is definitely an option, and that seems to me what Avaloren is hinting at. But, as i said before, this area is completely unhinted and unknown to the players, beyond a vague idea that it could theoretically exist.


Tl;dr: Any future WoW expansion after Dragonflight has to hint at something in this expansion if we are to avoid a world revamp of any kind. Whether this means full EK and Kalimdor, just one of each, or even just a part of either.

[elderu]

The thing with a world revamp is that the choice eventually becomes either having one, or not having new expansion continents.
.

What do you mean, like.. -ever again?- lol I know Blizz isn't at Cata levels of production these days, but nothing about that revamp stopped Pandaria, Draenor, Broken Isles, Zandalar/KT or Shadowlands.

Tl;dr: Any future WoW expansion after Dragonflight has to hint at something in this expansion if we are to avoid a world revamp of any kind. Whether this means full EK and Kalimdor, just one of each, or even just a part of either
.

Are you wanting us to avoid it? confused by the use of the term there.

At this point, coming up on 2024 with the 20th Anniersary- it's just bad business if Blizz doesn't do anything 'in the spirit' of an Evergreen EK/Kalimdor World Revamp.

Cataclysm for all it's uprooting feelings, at least treated WoW like a world that was WORTH updating and making feel alive, and it's due time they give what made WoW successful in the first place some more love again.

[Sondrelk]

What do you mean, like.. -ever again?- lol I know Blizz isn't at Cata levels of production these days, but nothing about that revamp stopped Pandaria, Draenor, Broken Isles, Zandalar/KT or Shadowlands.



Are you wanting us to avoid it? confused by the use of the term there.

At this point, coming up on 2024 with the 20th Anniersary- it's just bad business if Blizz doesn't do anything 'in the spirit' of an Evergreen EK/Kalimdor World Revamp.

Cataclysm for all it's uprooting feelings, at least treated WoW like a world that was WORTH updating and making feel alive, and it's due time they give what made WoW successful in the first place some more love again.

Any new WoW expansion needs a new set of zones. Usually they have had a large amount of places to pull from, both on Azeroth and beyond.
However, Dragon Isles was the last "large" area that could comfortably be made into a new continent. Not that there are not ANY unused areas on Azeroth that we know of, but most of them fall into the interminable category of islands like Tel'abim, or underground areas like Azjol-Nerub.

The developers obviously want to have hype surrounding a new area, and it's difficult to get that if they pull a location completely from nowhere, so the basic idea has to be known to the players before we go there, preferably long before it becomes relevant like with the Dragon Isles.

Blizzard currently has no such areas on Azeroth. Which means that any new expansion set on Azeroth will be one of three things. Made up in Dragonflight (Avaloren is a good example), massively enlarge a single island or two, or have a world revamp.
Of these three a world revamp seems to most likely.


And yes, i do really hope for a world revamp.

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

Honestly I think we first need to see how they can make older content evergreen. Utilize what concept they come up with in a modern xpac (MoP or later), get proof of concept working. Then do a revamp. A revamp that doesn't add evergreen content is a waste of time for anyone but RPers (and I say that as an RPer); collectors will blitz through the new achievements and find the new toys and pets and that will be it, possible done as fast as the prepatch for many.

Well, RPers don't really have a voice beyond being overshadowed by the "LOL GOLDSHIRE, ERP". Again, I doubt they will ever make evergreen features for RPers.

Again, I am curious to see if Preach's interviews have the word "Evergreen" in it. Because at this point, it is such a boon if the Team actually thinks in that direction.

I am still very much in doubt that they understand that the "Content Island" and "Raid Tier" content structure cannot sustain active interest from outsiders and newcomers. It will be a long dry-out period obviously but it will evidently clear that it won't be sustainable.

[Sondrelk]

Well, RPers don't really have a voice beyond being overshadowed by the "LOL GOLDSHIRE, ERP". Again, I doubt they will ever make evergreen features for RPers.

Again, I am curious to see if Preach's interviews have the word "Evergreen" in it. Because at this point, it is such a boon if the Team actually thinks in that direction.

I am still very much in doubt that they understand that the "Content Island" and "Raid Tier" content structure cannot sustain active interest from outsiders and newcomers. It will be a long dry-out period obviously but it will evidently clear that it won't be sustainable.

I think this is why Legion worked so well. It technically had the same structure. But by having the raid open in the Minor patch you got to really experience the open world content fully, before getting stuck into the raid later for that slower burn.

[Darkarath]

Well, RPers don't really have a voice beyond being overshadowed by the "LOL GOLDSHIRE, ERP". Again, I doubt they will ever make evergreen features for RPers.

Again, I am curious to see if Preach's interviews have the word "Evergreen" in it. Because at this point, it is such a boon if the Team actually thinks in that direction.

I am still very much in doubt that they understand that the "Content Island" and "Raid Tier" content structure cannot sustain active interest from outsiders and newcomers. It will be a long dry-out period obviously but it will evidently clear that it won't be sustainable.

The word evergreen is going to be very much present in Preach's interviews.

I saw his stream this morning (EU morning) and he said that evergreen is a word that Warcraft development team is going to have very present in the next expansions. Other highlights of his stream were:

- Next expansion already in development.
- Dragonflight initiates WoW's third's era.
- Housing is not happening. Current engine does not allow it (not in the way they want to do it).
- He expects Dragonflight patches to be huge.
- Blizzard's work environment seemed amazing.
- Story will now develop through many expansions, unlike the current model of containment.
- Blizzard do not see systems like Warfronts, Isles or Torghast as failures. They were created for just one expansion, as they will not make sense to have, for instance, Warfronts in SL, but the tech created will always be useful for them.
- When Preach was there, Blizz had a meeting about the next 10 years of WoW.
- When asked about a TV Show about Warcraft, they did not answer, but said that it would be cool.

I am probably leaving a lot of things as I watched It for 3 hours, but hopefully the interviews will come out soon, they are going to be very interesting.

[Ersula]

- Story will now develop through many expansions, unlike the current model of containment.

If this means world revamp, good. If this means "Teldrassil & Undercity are finally rebuilt! And they look exactly like they did in 2004. Also Silvermoon will never be rebuilt because reasons" that's bad.

Seriously, so much has happened to the original continents since cataclysm, its rediculous that the only things represented in game is a giant sword that never mattered & a big treadmark across Brill.

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

The word evergreen is going to be very much present in Preach's interviews.

I saw his stream this morning (EU morning) and he said that evergreen is a word that Warcraft development team is going to have very present in the next expansions. Other highlights of his stream were:

- Next expansion already in development.
- Dragonflight initiates WoW's third's era.
- Housing is not happening. Current engine does not allow it (not in the way they want to do it).
- He expects Dragonflight patches to be huge.
- Blizzard's work environment seemed amazing.
- Story will now develop through many expansions, unlike the current model of containment.
- Blizzard do not see systems like Warfronts, Isles or Torghast as failures. They were created for just one expansion, as they will not make sense to have, for instance, Warfronts in SL, but the tech created will always be useful for them.
- When Preach was there, Blizz had a meeting about the next 10 years of WoW.
- When asked about a TV Show about Warcraft, they did not answer, but said that it would be cool.

I am probably leaving a lot of things as I watched It for 3 hours, but hopefully the interviews will come out soon, they are going to be very interesting.

I mean I have fell for the trap of believing this company and reality is they still are cost saving and gimping out on content while still operating on the Timeless Isle ("Content Island") and Raid Tier as enough to keep everyone happy.

I mean I do love the free flow of serotonin from hearing what I want to hear from Preach and the potential interviews but I still know in my heart of hearts that we're just going to end up with Timeless Isle reiteration and Raid Tiers with a sprinkle of a single Megadungeon.

Again, I disagree on the failure of older systems comment as again they had ideas and plans for stuff that was dropped.

Story developing over several expansions has already been status quo. The "A plot" of Dragonflight is still fucking garbage underdeveloped and legitimately it is so impressive that they still cannot push the A plot into players faces beyond the Raid Cinematics that are just used to move us to the next location on this freight train mode of storytelling that just does not have anything engaging to give to the audience. (Also at this point only 0,01% of the player base knows what is going on with the narrative and they fail to recognize why this is a problem when they drop some big narrative point that the larger audience will have no connection to in raid cinematics in Dragonflight.). The Game needs to desperately remove itself from the story being used as simply patch marketing cause it is degrading it so badly that they just cannot tell anything of substance at this point.

As always, I remain super sceptical that we are getting more content in Dragonflight. I think we will still see the same content amount and delivery with the same systemic problems and issues that are already rotting it. I just don't see the game getting a bigger and better budget or the relaxation of the two year cycle.

But again, it is good to see a different direction from the Team because god have we needed that after this past decade. I'm always up to be surprised in a positive way at this point.

The marketing team at least seems alive now.

They've got a ton of free wins with RPers if they want to but again I doubt they are going to execute on anything in that regard. Although the disappearance of the transmog options for "gray and white" items could mean they are expanding the endeavour to uplift the whole Transmog system later on. After the whole "Glasses" debacle where we got glasses that we didn't want and which were only put on the patch schedule because of a personal friendship. I don't think smaller things will have a place in World of Warcraft which are "free wins" for our community.

Again, I'm just taking the approach of not becoming "too" spellbound by this whole media blitz. This is exactly what transpired with Shadowlands and I am more sceptical towards this sort of marketing push at this point. But, hey at least the Marketing Team we have are now not Skeleton Jim locked away in a side office with his skull on his desk.

[Sondrelk]

The word evergreen is going to be very much present in Preach's interviews.

I saw his stream this morning (EU morning) and he said that evergreen is a word that Warcraft development team is going to have very present in the next expansions. Other highlights of his stream were:

- Next expansion already in development.
- Dragonflight initiates WoW's third's era.
- Housing is not happening. Current engine does not allow it (not in the way they want to do it).
- He expects Dragonflight patches to be huge.
- Blizzard's work environment seemed amazing.
- Story will now develop through many expansions, unlike the current model of containment.
- Blizzard do not see systems like Warfronts, Isles or Torghast as failures. They were created for just one expansion, as they will not make sense to have, for instance, Warfronts in SL, but the tech created will always be useful for them.
- When Preach was there, Blizz had a meeting about the next 10 years of WoW.
- When asked about a TV Show about Warcraft, they did not answer, but said that it would be cool.

I am probably leaving a lot of things as I watched It for 3 hours, but hopefully the interviews will come out soon, they are going to be very interesting.

Most of this stuff sounds like stuff we already knew, or which generally are already the case.

Expansions being in development this early we have known to be the case for years.
The only time in recent years the story has not flowed from one expansion to the next is in Shadowlands to Dragonflight. Otherwise it has been a smooth narrative going from MoP to SL.
Warfronts and such being experiments should have been known for years now. Even M+ was just a particularly well received one back in Legion.

[Xilurm]

World Revamp would be a little bit tricky with Chromie Time being a thing, unless they force people to level there somehow.

Anyway, why you all talking about the word "Evergreen"? What does it mean in this context?

[Ersula]

World Revamp would be a little bit tricky with Chromie Time being a thing, unless they force people to level there somehow.

Why? At this point, there's no reason why multiple versions of continents can't exist in game. And there's no reason why a world vamp would also need to create a new 1-60 leveling experience: That's the whole point of Chromie Time. 99.9% likelyhood a post-dragonflight Azeroth would just be level 70+ content.

[Cheezits]

World Revamp would be a little bit tricky with Chromie Time being a thing, unless they force people to level there somehow.

Anyway, why you all talking about the word "Evergreen"? What does it mean in this context?

Or Chromie Time becomes optional and a new 10-max level campaign is created.

Evergreen = always relevant content that can be added to.

[Xilurm]

Why? At this point, there's no reason why multiple versions of continents can't exist in game. And there's no reason why a world vamp would also need to create a new 1-60 leveling experience: That's the whole point of Chromie Time. 99.9% likelyhood a post-dragonflight Azeroth would just be level 70+ content.

So the same quests but the zones/textures looking different?

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Evergreen = always relevant content that can be added to.

Well Chromie Time is already optional, the thing is, they force new players to do BFA stuff, but everyone that has more than one character already can skip that and choose something else.

Wouldn't a world revamp be wasted resources if they didn't figure out how to make sure players both old and new experience these zones?

Evergreen = always relevant content that can be added to.

Ah, I see. That's cool.



Yes boiiiii, there's a long version!

[Sondrelk]

So the same quests but the zones/textures looking different?

- - - Updated - - -



Well Chromie Time is already optional, the thing is, they force new players to do BFA stuff, but everyone that has more than one character already can skip that and choose something else.

Wouldn't a world revamp be wasted resources if they didn't figure out how to make sure players both old and new experience these zones?


Ah, I see. That's cool.

[video]

Yes boiiiii, there's a long version!

BfA is a good choice for the new player experience, but isnt ideal. A better version in a revamped EK/Kalimdor could explain more about the specific races, and give a basic primer on stories that say, a Dwarf or a Troll should be aware of.
It would also be worth it just to ensure that the zones are given a fair shake, and the stories there are updated.

And of course, my favorite argument. There isnt really a reason not to. EK and Kalimdor already has most of the biomes you would expect in other newer zones, so might as well use the ones we have, which honestly are currently about as relevant to the new player as stuff like Storm Peaks, or Dread Wastes is.

- - - Updated - - -

Also nice to finally have a proper version of the login screen theme that incorporates various music from the expansion. Always loved having something to really encapsulate the entire expansion in one track for when I am in a nostalgic mood. The previous one was too short and simplistic to really take me on a journey like this one does.

[Luck4]

So the same quests but the zones/textures looking different?
Wouldn't a world revamp be wasted resources if they didn't figure out how to make sure players both old and new experience these zones?

The only way the World Revamp will work is if it's treated like any other expansion but bigger, because of the sheer size of EK/Kalimdor, and by that I mean all the high-level content such as Raids/Dungeons/World Content like World Quests/Invasions/Dailies placed in EK/Kalimdor.

Forget Cataclysm's leveling revamp, this time the revamped EK/Kalimdor needs to be where everything happens, the real deal, like in Vanilla.

Cataclysm concentrated the endgame in the scattered newer zones (Vashj'ir, Mount Hyjal, Twilight Highlands, Deepholm, and Uldum) and didn't make much use, other than leveling, of EK/Kalimdor revamped zones. It's also important to note that back in Cataclysm we hadn't World Bosses/World Quests/Invasion Events/Quest Scenarios/Treasure and Rare hunting activities as we do today to make use of the revamped world.

[Ersula]

So the same quests but the zones/textures looking different?

Cataclysm Kalimdor & 11.0 Kalimdor would be two completely different set of zones. Etc. If they had to do it again they definitely wouldn't have actually removed the pre-Cataclysm versions of zones. "We mistakenly thought we'd never miss this" is best summed up them having to salvage for the original vanilla server blades when they were building Classic.

[Xilurm]

Also Housing CAN be possible, but yeah the engine kinda fucks with a lot there.

But.. Garrisons...

[Xilurm]

How is the A Plot of Dragonflight Garbage? Shit is simple asf.

- - - Updated - - -



That's not really "housing" outside of the Building tiers. You don't live in it, it's not personal, you cannot decorate your house. Garrisons aren't it.

It could work if they make decorating a "fixed" thing. As in you can only put certain furniture in certain places and can't move them around.

[Nymrohd]

It could work if they make decorating a "fixed" thing. As in you can only put certain furniture in certain places and can't move them around.

Yeah I think the only way housing would ever work in WoW would be Garrison-like phased pre-build spaces with item hooks for item placement. This is extremely limiting ofc.