Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Makabreska]

Sure, he believed that. Fandral did not and many night elves did not either or else he wouldn't have had such an easy job recruiting. And after the War of Thorns more of them will be questioning their culture as we can see with plenty of them joining the Primalists. All I am saying is, this can easily be revisited by Blizzard. If anything, the futility of the Afterlife being laid bare for all to see should make more night elves seek back immortality, not less. And given it was once handed by the Aspects who refused it the second time (with Noz not blessing Teldrassil), claiming it by force via the Primalist cause could be a storyline for them. Sadly so far in Dragonflight the villains lack any nuance in their stories.

Is this a reliable metric? Do we have some info specifically saying nelves ale plenty in their ranks? Because most big cults so far (Cult of the Damned or Twilight) had basically all races in the fold. Also, Fandral example should rather show them how foolish it is to chase immortality and how hard it can backfire on them when they ally themselves with dubious powers.

[Nymrohd]

I imagine Blizzard saw the world revamp as a poison pill: it absolutely needed to be done at some point, questing was rapidly evolving and the stuff we have in 2010 Cata is much closer to 2022 modern questing than 2004 vanilla to Cata, but it was a huge amount of effort just for a good chunk of the playerbase to mostly ignore it and complain about a lack of endgame content. It was a long term investment that's paid off down the line, some of the revamped zones (Silverpine, Hillsbrad, Redridge, Duskwood, Loch Modan, etc.) still see plenty of players because the questing flow is so smooth and the exp rates so high.

Semi-related, am I crazy or did Blizzard comment at some point that splitting up the 80-85 zones was a mistake and not something they wanted to repeat again? Either way, SL showed it definitely doesn't work out well. Hell, BfA could get annoying with loading screens hopping back and forth between the islands.

They did say that and then made a worse version of it with Shadowlands

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Is this a reliable metric? Do we have some info specifically saying nelves ale plenty in their ranks? Because most big cults so far (Cult of the Damned or Twilight) had basically all races in the fold. Also, Fandral example should rather show them how foolish it is to chase immortality and how hard it can backfire on them when they ally themselves with dubious powers.

I think this is an interesting discussion to have; the Primalists seem to be entirely Night Elves, Tauren and Trolls. Most other Cults as you said had members from all races. I assume that was a conscious choice.

[Jaggler]

They did say that and then made a worse version of it with Shadowlands

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I think this is an interesting discussion to have; the Primalists seem to be entirely Night Elves, Tauren and Trolls. Most other Cults as you said had members from all races. I assume that was a conscious choice.

It would make sense if the primalists wouldn't want to take offspring of titan-forged races in (though tauren and nelves were slightly titan "corrupted")

[Auxis]

I don't think Avaloren is a world tree, it is most likely some kind of fortress, overtaken titan structure (not a facility as they don't say Uld) or an old name for some place we already know by a different name (I like the theory that it's North EK).

It could just be a new continent but I think it'll have to be relevant to DF in some way.

I agree. If Avaloren was so difficult to get to, why would it be difficult to get to something that is practically within the confines of the Dragon Isles - a group of islands containing a titan facility or 2? I highly doubt "heretics" (whatever they may be) would escape to something sitting on their enemies doorstep. It's just not all that defensive of a position like the titanforged reports are making it out to be.

[Shadochi]

I imagine Blizzard saw the world revamp as a poison pill: it absolutely needed to be done at some point, questing was rapidly evolving and the stuff we have in 2010 Cata is much closer to 2022 modern questing than 2004 vanilla to Cata, but it was a huge amount of effort just for a good chunk of the playerbase to mostly ignore it and complain about a lack of endgame content. It was a long term investment that's paid off down the line, some of the revamped zones (Silverpine, Hillsbrad, Redridge, Duskwood, Loch Modan, etc.) still see plenty of players because the questing flow is so smooth and the exp rates so high.

Semi-related, am I crazy or did Blizzard comment at some point that splitting up the 80-85 zones was a mistake and not something they wanted to repeat again? Either way, SL showed it definitely doesn't work out well. Hell, BfA could get annoying with loading screens hopping back and forth between the islands.

I'd argue that questing and zone flow is more different now compared to Cate-era zones than it was in your example. Also take into consideration that they didn't do the revamp because the questing changed with expansions and was a steep difference, since that would mean that there was a huge difference in questing between vanilla and Wrath zones so in Cata they had to update the EK and Kali experiences. The major changes to flows were brought with the revamp, not the other way around that revamp was brought because prior major changes.

And IMO we had minor changes each expansion since Cata (new quest types and such) BUT with WoD and forward there were major changes to how zones flow. WoD was the first one IIRC that introduced chapters and campaigns to zones, whereas the MoP and earlier leveling zones had the achievement be only Complete X Quests in zone. And if you compare doing the zone achievemnt from an old zone to doing one for a current zone you would notice that in the old ones with the update where we now do have "Chapters", they are pretty much still all quests in a zone, while in newer zones they are only the main campaign without any side questlines.

Also new zones have a lot more phasing and cutscenes used than the old world. Bonus objectives.

So I think the premise that there is a bigger difference in 2004-2010 compared to 2010-2022 is flawed. And a presumed revamp would bring also new major developments like in 2010 compared to what we had before.



On topic of revamps:

Another major thing is that we had a few Cataclysm-level (or larger) events since then. And the world doesn't reflect that. We also had (with launch of Dragonflight) 12 new races join one or both factions that are unrepresented at all in the old world.

My ideal world revamp wouldn't specifically revolve around a new expansion world shattering event, but making it evergreen (and then when a Invasion event happens in a zone in the future keep the aftermath). Keep the outlines of the continents revamped, but don't need to keep all the zones, some might've merged or split and such. Have the races that have joined the game since then have settlements (quest hubs) and such. Also a great opportunity to develop a new cast of lore characters. Make the capitals also much larger.


And now this part is really wishful thinking, but an expansion that did this could have really unique set of content for Seasons. Revamp a set of the old world dungeons/create similar new dungeons and have them be in revamped zones, do that each season and rotate out all or half the dungeons with new/updated ones (this is less work than it seems from an assets PoV since a lot of dungeons share assets from their zones).

[Nymrohd]

Honestly I think we first need to see how they can make older content evergreen. Utilize what concept they come up with in a modern xpac (MoP or later), get proof of concept working. Then do a revamp. A revamp that doesn't add evergreen content is a waste of time for anyone but RPers (and I say that as an RPer); collectors will blitz through the new achievements and find the new toys and pets and that will be it, possible done as fast as the prepatch for many.

[Paula Deen]

Honestly I think we first need to see how they can make older content evergreen. Utilize what concept they come up with in a modern xpac (MoP or later), get proof of concept working. Then do a revamp. A revamp that doesn't add evergreen content is a waste of time for anyone but RPers (and I say that as an RPer); collectors will blitz through the new achievements and find the new toys and pets and that will be it, possible done as fast as the prepatch for many.

It's quite clear they are heading this direction with Dragon Riding, Professions, and Invasions at expac launch in DF.

I'd guess these are all features they are gonna look at closely for adaption to the whole world. Dragon Riding is gonna have amazing implications out of everything. They would need some crazy good world design (which in all fairness they do have) to make something that massive happen. It would probably be either regional or continent sized. As in just Khaz Modan or just Lordaeron or just Northern Kalimdor.

But I mean the dream of an evergreen world revamp has been floated since before Legion leaked and never happened and the more likely instance is that we never get one and they stay true to what they said in BFA: They will update things as it makes sense.

[Sondrelk]

It's quite clear they are heading this direction with Dragon Riding, Professions, and Invasions at expac launch in DF.

I'd guess these are all features they are gonna look at closely for adaption to the whole world. Dragon Riding is gonna have amazing implications out of everything. They would need some crazy good world design (which in all fairness they do have) to make something that massive happen. It would probably be either regional or continent sized. As in just Khaz Modan or just Lordaeron or just Northern Kalimdor.

But I mean the dream of an evergreen world revamp has been floated since before Legion leaked and never happened and the more likely instance is that we never get one and they stay true to what they said in BFA: They will update things as it makes sense.

The thing with a world revamp is that the choice eventually becomes either having one, or not having new expansion continents.

With the Dragon Isles we have officially exhausted all large unexplored areas on Azeroth that has not itself been hinted at previously.

Any expansion after this one will have to draw from a completely new pool of locations if it wants ot be on Azeroth, barring making areas like Tel'abim or similar an entire expansion.
Underground Azeroth is an option, but given how disparate the interesting underground areas are I imagine this is better served as parts of a larger expansion, rather than cramming all of them together.

The backside of Azeroth is definitely an option, and that seems to me what Avaloren is hinting at. But, as i said before, this area is completely unhinted and unknown to the players, beyond a vague idea that it could theoretically exist.


Tl;dr: Any future WoW expansion after Dragonflight has to hint at something in this expansion if we are to avoid a world revamp of any kind. Whether this means full EK and Kalimdor, just one of each, or even just a part of either.

[elderu]

The thing with a world revamp is that the choice eventually becomes either having one, or not having new expansion continents.
.

What do you mean, like.. -ever again?- lol I know Blizz isn't at Cata levels of production these days, but nothing about that revamp stopped Pandaria, Draenor, Broken Isles, Zandalar/KT or Shadowlands.

Tl;dr: Any future WoW expansion after Dragonflight has to hint at something in this expansion if we are to avoid a world revamp of any kind. Whether this means full EK and Kalimdor, just one of each, or even just a part of either
.

Are you wanting us to avoid it? confused by the use of the term there.

At this point, coming up on 2024 with the 20th Anniersary- it's just bad business if Blizz doesn't do anything 'in the spirit' of an Evergreen EK/Kalimdor World Revamp.

Cataclysm for all it's uprooting feelings, at least treated WoW like a world that was WORTH updating and making feel alive, and it's due time they give what made WoW successful in the first place some more love again.

[Sondrelk]

What do you mean, like.. -ever again?- lol I know Blizz isn't at Cata levels of production these days, but nothing about that revamp stopped Pandaria, Draenor, Broken Isles, Zandalar/KT or Shadowlands.



Are you wanting us to avoid it? confused by the use of the term there.

At this point, coming up on 2024 with the 20th Anniersary- it's just bad business if Blizz doesn't do anything 'in the spirit' of an Evergreen EK/Kalimdor World Revamp.

Cataclysm for all it's uprooting feelings, at least treated WoW like a world that was WORTH updating and making feel alive, and it's due time they give what made WoW successful in the first place some more love again.

Any new WoW expansion needs a new set of zones. Usually they have had a large amount of places to pull from, both on Azeroth and beyond.
However, Dragon Isles was the last "large" area that could comfortably be made into a new continent. Not that there are not ANY unused areas on Azeroth that we know of, but most of them fall into the interminable category of islands like Tel'abim, or underground areas like Azjol-Nerub.

The developers obviously want to have hype surrounding a new area, and it's difficult to get that if they pull a location completely from nowhere, so the basic idea has to be known to the players before we go there, preferably long before it becomes relevant like with the Dragon Isles.

Blizzard currently has no such areas on Azeroth. Which means that any new expansion set on Azeroth will be one of three things. Made up in Dragonflight (Avaloren is a good example), massively enlarge a single island or two, or have a world revamp.
Of these three a world revamp seems to most likely.


And yes, i do really hope for a world revamp.

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

Honestly I think we first need to see how they can make older content evergreen. Utilize what concept they come up with in a modern xpac (MoP or later), get proof of concept working. Then do a revamp. A revamp that doesn't add evergreen content is a waste of time for anyone but RPers (and I say that as an RPer); collectors will blitz through the new achievements and find the new toys and pets and that will be it, possible done as fast as the prepatch for many.

Well, RPers don't really have a voice beyond being overshadowed by the "LOL GOLDSHIRE, ERP". Again, I doubt they will ever make evergreen features for RPers.

Again, I am curious to see if Preach's interviews have the word "Evergreen" in it. Because at this point, it is such a boon if the Team actually thinks in that direction.

I am still very much in doubt that they understand that the "Content Island" and "Raid Tier" content structure cannot sustain active interest from outsiders and newcomers. It will be a long dry-out period obviously but it will evidently clear that it won't be sustainable.

[Sondrelk]

Well, RPers don't really have a voice beyond being overshadowed by the "LOL GOLDSHIRE, ERP". Again, I doubt they will ever make evergreen features for RPers.

Again, I am curious to see if Preach's interviews have the word "Evergreen" in it. Because at this point, it is such a boon if the Team actually thinks in that direction.

I am still very much in doubt that they understand that the "Content Island" and "Raid Tier" content structure cannot sustain active interest from outsiders and newcomers. It will be a long dry-out period obviously but it will evidently clear that it won't be sustainable.

I think this is why Legion worked so well. It technically had the same structure. But by having the raid open in the Minor patch you got to really experience the open world content fully, before getting stuck into the raid later for that slower burn.

[Darkarath]

Well, RPers don't really have a voice beyond being overshadowed by the "LOL GOLDSHIRE, ERP". Again, I doubt they will ever make evergreen features for RPers.

Again, I am curious to see if Preach's interviews have the word "Evergreen" in it. Because at this point, it is such a boon if the Team actually thinks in that direction.

I am still very much in doubt that they understand that the "Content Island" and "Raid Tier" content structure cannot sustain active interest from outsiders and newcomers. It will be a long dry-out period obviously but it will evidently clear that it won't be sustainable.

The word evergreen is going to be very much present in Preach's interviews.

I saw his stream this morning (EU morning) and he said that evergreen is a word that Warcraft development team is going to have very present in the next expansions. Other highlights of his stream were:

- Next expansion already in development.
- Dragonflight initiates WoW's third's era.
- Housing is not happening. Current engine does not allow it (not in the way they want to do it).
- He expects Dragonflight patches to be huge.
- Blizzard's work environment seemed amazing.
- Story will now develop through many expansions, unlike the current model of containment.
- Blizzard do not see systems like Warfronts, Isles or Torghast as failures. They were created for just one expansion, as they will not make sense to have, for instance, Warfronts in SL, but the tech created will always be useful for them.
- When Preach was there, Blizz had a meeting about the next 10 years of WoW.
- When asked about a TV Show about Warcraft, they did not answer, but said that it would be cool.

I am probably leaving a lot of things as I watched It for 3 hours, but hopefully the interviews will come out soon, they are going to be very interesting.

[Ersula]

- Story will now develop through many expansions, unlike the current model of containment.

If this means world revamp, good. If this means "Teldrassil & Undercity are finally rebuilt! And they look exactly like they did in 2004. Also Silvermoon will never be rebuilt because reasons" that's bad.

Seriously, so much has happened to the original continents since cataclysm, its rediculous that the only things represented in game is a giant sword that never mattered & a big treadmark across Brill.

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

The word evergreen is going to be very much present in Preach's interviews.

I saw his stream this morning (EU morning) and he said that evergreen is a word that Warcraft development team is going to have very present in the next expansions. Other highlights of his stream were:

- Next expansion already in development.
- Dragonflight initiates WoW's third's era.
- Housing is not happening. Current engine does not allow it (not in the way they want to do it).
- He expects Dragonflight patches to be huge.
- Blizzard's work environment seemed amazing.
- Story will now develop through many expansions, unlike the current model of containment.
- Blizzard do not see systems like Warfronts, Isles or Torghast as failures. They were created for just one expansion, as they will not make sense to have, for instance, Warfronts in SL, but the tech created will always be useful for them.
- When Preach was there, Blizz had a meeting about the next 10 years of WoW.
- When asked about a TV Show about Warcraft, they did not answer, but said that it would be cool.

I am probably leaving a lot of things as I watched It for 3 hours, but hopefully the interviews will come out soon, they are going to be very interesting.

I mean I have fell for the trap of believing this company and reality is they still are cost saving and gimping out on content while still operating on the Timeless Isle ("Content Island") and Raid Tier as enough to keep everyone happy.

I mean I do love the free flow of serotonin from hearing what I want to hear from Preach and the potential interviews but I still know in my heart of hearts that we're just going to end up with Timeless Isle reiteration and Raid Tiers with a sprinkle of a single Megadungeon.

Again, I disagree on the failure of older systems comment as again they had ideas and plans for stuff that was dropped.

Story developing over several expansions has already been status quo. The "A plot" of Dragonflight is still fucking garbage underdeveloped and legitimately it is so impressive that they still cannot push the A plot into players faces beyond the Raid Cinematics that are just used to move us to the next location on this freight train mode of storytelling that just does not have anything engaging to give to the audience. (Also at this point only 0,01% of the player base knows what is going on with the narrative and they fail to recognize why this is a problem when they drop some big narrative point that the larger audience will have no connection to in raid cinematics in Dragonflight.). The Game needs to desperately remove itself from the story being used as simply patch marketing cause it is degrading it so badly that they just cannot tell anything of substance at this point.

As always, I remain super sceptical that we are getting more content in Dragonflight. I think we will still see the same content amount and delivery with the same systemic problems and issues that are already rotting it. I just don't see the game getting a bigger and better budget or the relaxation of the two year cycle.

But again, it is good to see a different direction from the Team because god have we needed that after this past decade. I'm always up to be surprised in a positive way at this point.

The marketing team at least seems alive now.

They've got a ton of free wins with RPers if they want to but again I doubt they are going to execute on anything in that regard. Although the disappearance of the transmog options for "gray and white" items could mean they are expanding the endeavour to uplift the whole Transmog system later on. After the whole "Glasses" debacle where we got glasses that we didn't want and which were only put on the patch schedule because of a personal friendship. I don't think smaller things will have a place in World of Warcraft which are "free wins" for our community.

Again, I'm just taking the approach of not becoming "too" spellbound by this whole media blitz. This is exactly what transpired with Shadowlands and I am more sceptical towards this sort of marketing push at this point. But, hey at least the Marketing Team we have are now not Skeleton Jim locked away in a side office with his skull on his desk.

[Sondrelk]

The word evergreen is going to be very much present in Preach's interviews.

I saw his stream this morning (EU morning) and he said that evergreen is a word that Warcraft development team is going to have very present in the next expansions. Other highlights of his stream were:

- Next expansion already in development.
- Dragonflight initiates WoW's third's era.
- Housing is not happening. Current engine does not allow it (not in the way they want to do it).
- He expects Dragonflight patches to be huge.
- Blizzard's work environment seemed amazing.
- Story will now develop through many expansions, unlike the current model of containment.
- Blizzard do not see systems like Warfronts, Isles or Torghast as failures. They were created for just one expansion, as they will not make sense to have, for instance, Warfronts in SL, but the tech created will always be useful for them.
- When Preach was there, Blizz had a meeting about the next 10 years of WoW.
- When asked about a TV Show about Warcraft, they did not answer, but said that it would be cool.

I am probably leaving a lot of things as I watched It for 3 hours, but hopefully the interviews will come out soon, they are going to be very interesting.

Most of this stuff sounds like stuff we already knew, or which generally are already the case.

Expansions being in development this early we have known to be the case for years.
The only time in recent years the story has not flowed from one expansion to the next is in Shadowlands to Dragonflight. Otherwise it has been a smooth narrative going from MoP to SL.
Warfronts and such being experiments should have been known for years now. Even M+ was just a particularly well received one back in Legion.

[Xilurm]

World Revamp would be a little bit tricky with Chromie Time being a thing, unless they force people to level there somehow.

Anyway, why you all talking about the word "Evergreen"? What does it mean in this context?

[Ersula]

World Revamp would be a little bit tricky with Chromie Time being a thing, unless they force people to level there somehow.

Why? At this point, there's no reason why multiple versions of continents can't exist in game. And there's no reason why a world vamp would also need to create a new 1-60 leveling experience: That's the whole point of Chromie Time. 99.9% likelyhood a post-dragonflight Azeroth would just be level 70+ content.

[Cheezits]

World Revamp would be a little bit tricky with Chromie Time being a thing, unless they force people to level there somehow.

Anyway, why you all talking about the word "Evergreen"? What does it mean in this context?

Or Chromie Time becomes optional and a new 10-max level campaign is created.

Evergreen = always relevant content that can be added to.

[Xilurm]

Why? At this point, there's no reason why multiple versions of continents can't exist in game. And there's no reason why a world vamp would also need to create a new 1-60 leveling experience: That's the whole point of Chromie Time. 99.9% likelyhood a post-dragonflight Azeroth would just be level 70+ content.

So the same quests but the zones/textures looking different?

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Evergreen = always relevant content that can be added to.

Well Chromie Time is already optional, the thing is, they force new players to do BFA stuff, but everyone that has more than one character already can skip that and choose something else.

Wouldn't a world revamp be wasted resources if they didn't figure out how to make sure players both old and new experience these zones?

Evergreen = always relevant content that can be added to.

Ah, I see. That's cool.



Yes boiiiii, there's a long version!