Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Nyel]

The problem at this point with Dragon Isles is, if they’re not floating and just are another basic continent in the ocean, I’d be massively disappointed.

Dragon Isles, something where Dragons reside, and it’s not in the air? For a race that’s born to fly and whose individuals are usually massive? (Sure they can transform into other races, but why would dragons do that on their home island?)

[therumblings]

The problem at this point with Dragon Isles is, if they’re not floating and just are another basic continent in the ocean, I’d be massively disappointed.

Dragon Isles, something where Dragons reside, and it’s not in the air? For a race that’s born to fly and whose individuals are usually massive? (Sure they can transform into other races, but why would dragons do that on their home island?)

This. It would make for fun gameplay but also a cool piece of lore that makes sense for Dragons.

[Dracullus]

The problem at this point with Dragon Isles is, if they’re not floating and just are another basic continent in the ocean, I’d be massively disappointed.

You will be dissapointed anyway and this is not a problem. SL gave everybody fill of otherworldly continents, something regular that will feel like Azeroth and, most important, won't be disjointed is needed, at least for me.

[Raetary]

I need someone to explain to me how "island that floats" equals "otherworldy landscape".

[therumblings]

I need someone to explain to me how "island that floats" equals "otherworldy landscape".

I don't think it's otherwordly, but the verticality and landscape potential is pretty huge, I'd imagine you could have entire zones overlapping each other, with waterfalls and such. The beauty is untapped potential.

[micwini]

9.2 is obviously going to be Zereth Mortis, which will, judging by what we have seen so far, have something akin to Isu Architecture from Assassins Creed. Depending on whether it is the last patch or not, the last boss will either be Anduin or the Jailer, and depending on if its the last patch or not, the Jailer will either try to invade Azeroth and succeed, or we stop him.

If he is the last boss, Gorribal will be used somehow by an Avatar of Azeroth.

I found Ny'alotha architecture ring way closer to Isu architecture than anything I have seen of the first ones so far.

[Dracullus]

I need someone to explain to me how "island that floats" equals "otherworldy landscape".

Not alone of course, but I doubt people want stop here. It would just means no shore, no sea, no ships arriving to unknown land, no beaches with Murlocs etc. Imo game should mix themes.

BfA was grounded on first two patches, but sadly they changed theme midway through expac, instead giving Nazjatar & Nyalotha to proper Old God expansion. For BfA it would be better if they stick with war, grounded theme, giving patches let's say complete revamp of Gilneas and Tirisfal that were abandoned zones anyway.

[Raetary]

Not alone of course, but I doubt people want stop here. It would just means no shore, no sea, no ships arriving to unknown land, no beaches with Murlocs etc. Imo game should mix themes.

But...
It doesn't mean any of those things.

For one, not every zone needs to be floating.
They could make 1-2 zones on the ground or partially floating and the rest in the air.

no shore, no sea -- no beaches with Murlocs etc.

Whether a zone has shores or water masses depends entirely on zone design.
Nothing stops the zones from having a big sea/lake/rivers and therefore murloc filled beaches on it.

Hell, if anything floating islands having a rich and flowing water sources is almost a given, as that's the most common depiction of magic floating isles in fantasy.

no ships arriving to unknown land

We would be using airships instead then.
Like literally every other fantasy franchise that has air islands.

This is a non-issue.

[Nyel]

I don't think it's otherwordly, but the verticality and landscape potential is pretty huge, I'd imagine you could have entire zones overlapping each other, with waterfalls and such. The beauty is untapped potential.

It is and it has been done before and it totally worked out. With flying mounts being a requirement. I don’t see why WoW couldn’t achieve the same. And it would totally fit Dragons, be a very cool gameplay gimmick and would turn their horrible approach with flying into something that is mandatory to progress - win win.

[Hitei]

I need someone to explain to me how "island that floats" equals "otherworldy landscape".

It's not because of the floating, but they'd also presumably not just be regular islands. Just based on being flight themed they'd have some fairly otherwordly regions, the bronze area is likely to be like an outdoor caverns of time with different eras intersecting as small pockets and infinite corruption; the blue area would be arcane suffused like Coldarra or Netherstorm, the red area might be some Ashenvale-esque giant magical forest, the black area would likely be some cave-filled volcanic region with rivers and lakes of lava, green would lean into Emerald Dream aesthetic with hazy, misty-covered tangles of primordial wilderness with dream-like terrain like in EN.

But beyond that, being magical floating islands rather than a normal continent means it's much more open to fantastical design and less grounded in reality. Basically all the stuff that made Outland otherwordly is stuff that can also be applied to the Dragon Isles.

[Raetary]

the red area might be some Ashenvale-esque giant magical forest

I always imagined it as Eversong woods but with saturation turned slightly up.

[Hitei]

I always imagined it as Eversong woods but with saturation turned slightly up.

Yeah, something like that.

[Sondrelk]

It is and it has been done before and it totally worked out. With flying mounts being a requirement. I don’t see why WoW couldn’t achieve the same. And it would totally fit Dragons, be a very cool gameplay gimmick and would turn their horrible approach with flying into something that is mandatory to progress - win win.

I really hope Blizzard doesnt make an expansion where flying is required without also revamping flying. There currently is no mechanic inherent to flying that is in any way conducive to gameplay, and mixing current flying with open world just leads to the open world being made pointless.
The teleportation networks shown in SL would be mostly meaningless, same with most of the treasures. The very idea of zones like Bastion for instance is heavily built around the concept that you explore it from the ground. The fact that it is floating and the inhabitants can fly is the very reason the zone works so well when you yourself cannot, it gives the developers organic reasons to have treasures out of reach requiring clever use of mechanics to find.

The game is being held back by the current version of flying, and unless the very mechanics of it changes to add some inherent weaknesses and strengths compared to other modes of transportation then adding flying will only ever diminish the open world.

[Nyel]

I really hope Blizzard doesnt make an expansion where flying is required without also revamping flying. There currently is no mechanic inherent to flying that is in any way conducive to gameplay, and mixing current flying with open world just leads to the open world being made pointless.
The teleportation networks shown in SL would be mostly meaningless, same with most of the treasures. The very idea of zones like Bastion for instance is heavily built around the concept that you explore it from the ground. The fact that it is floating and the inhabitants can fly is the very reason the zone works so well when you yourself cannot, it gives the developers organic reasons to have treasures out of reach requiring clever use of mechanics to find.

The game is being held back by the current version of flying, and unless the very mechanics of it changes to add some inherent weaknesses and strengths compared to other modes of transportation then adding flying will only ever diminish the open world.

If the contintent itself is designed with flying always being present and where flying is a mandatory part, I don't see any problem. Sure, if they design the continent the same they do with the others, flying is just the convenience. But if your vision for Dragon Isles incorporates the gameplay attached to flying, it's something different.

This could easily be down by e.g. giving the player the moment he steps onto Dragon Isles a dragon companion / mount. You can only use that to fly there and it's slow. You need to level up your companion and you can even customize it later on (which Dragonflight its from, gender, flying style etc.). Flying isn't unlocked from the go, your working towards it in every zone with your dragon companion. You start with slow flying (slower than the fastes ground mount speed) and can slowly upgrade it if you fulfill different tasks etc. It's really easy to give players a new flying experience (at least for Dragon Isles) that would work and be incorporated in the game mechanic. Heck, your Dragon companion could be one of the new gameplay features for the expansion (that's cosmetic; character progression is another system).

[Sondrelk]

If the contintent itself is designed with flying always being present and where flying is a mandatory part, I don't see any problem. Sure, if they design the continent the same they do with the others, flying is just the convenience. But if your vision for Dragon Isles incorporates the gameplay attached to flying, it's something different.

This could easily be down by e.g. giving the player the moment he steps onto Dragon Isles a dragon companion / mount. You can only use that to fly there and it's slow. You need to level up your companion and you can even customize it later on (which Dragonflight its from, gender, flying style etc.). Flying isn't unlocked from the go, your working towards it in every zone with your dragon companion. You start with slow flying (slower than the fastes ground mount speed) and can slowly upgrade it if you fulfill different tasks etc. It's really easy to give players a new flying experience (at least for Dragon Isles) that would work and be incorporated in the game mechanic. Heck, your Dragon companion could be one of the new gameplay features for the expansion (that's cosmetic; character progression is another system).

Just slowing flying down wouldnt erally fix much of anything except maybe whenever you want to go for a short distance fast. The main issue with flying is that it removes open world movement nuance. Things like a fliff ceases to be an obstacle. For a flying continent espeically you cannot really do things like have a smaller island off the side that is impossible to get to, or which contains a challenge, the inclusion of flying trivializes whatever it was supposed to be.

A better form fo flying would have to solve the biggest issue that has plagues it since its inception, that of no content being feasibly built around it that doesnt itself need to remove flying to function like it should.

Flying as it exists doesnt allow for any middle ground between using it and not. When you use a flight point it has inherent limitations. It's fast, but also point to point, this means that content can be built with it in mind, placing it nearer points of interest to strengthen it, or having an area without a convenient flightpoint to enhance the feeling of being in a hostile area.
Flying doesnt have that currently, either you have it and can use it to bypass challenges, or you cannot use it at all. A better option might be to make using it in unintended areas challening, or to give it a slow ramp-up to emphasize how it is supposed to be used over longer distances.

Ideally flying should at least be difficult to maneuver precisely, and require effort in taking off. That way the game could emphasize how some areas are better suited to flying than others, and more organically create challenges where maybe you can get anywhere with flying, but not leave easily. Or conversely make it difficult to get into an area except on foot, but create a designated area within that allows flying away easily.

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Any gameplay system needs inherent limitations, otherwise there isnt any way for the game to innovate and make hte content more fun.

Take the airship in Icecrown. Because of flying it is relegated to a slightyl cooler than average quest hub. Since there is no limitation on flight the airship is deprecated on arrival since there is nothing it can give that flying doesnt alreayd give you.
Had flying not been a part of the game however then the airship would have been an absolutely iconic part of Icecrown. There are no flightpaths anywhere but the outer rims of the zone, so having something high above that you can jump off of with parachutes would have made it probably one of the iconic zones for emergent gameplay.
But as it stands the airship is a gimmick, a neat setpiece whose only features worth remembering are the occassional battles done solely for the spectacle, and the neat feature that you are in a slightly different spot than you were when you landed.


Imagine for instance if Flying was momentum based, and didnt allow you to gain height easily. In such a system a zone like Highmountain would be incredible, jumping off the highest peak, gaining speed and seeing how far you can go. Stormheim is supposed to be windy, getting to Highmountain from sea would be impossible normally, but maybe there are updrafts you can make us of if you know where to look.
Suddenly you might have inadvertently created an entire gameplay loop based around starting from a low position, using game mechanics in a fun way to gain height and speed, and then being rewarded for it.
Now what might only be intended as a convenience has gameplay attached, gameplay that can be rewarded properly. Flying wouldnt be hitting autorun and angling your camera where you want to go, it would require skill and finesse to do right, something players can learn and get good at. And for those that cannot be bothered, or those that really need to go answer the doorbell while also getting across a continent, the flight paths are still there, taking you across the landscape with no risk and no input required beyond the initial click on where exactly you want to go.

[Lady Atia]

But...
It doesn't mean any of those things.

For one, not every zone needs to be floating.
They could make 1-2 zones on the ground or partially floating and the rest in the air.


Whether a zone has shores or water masses depends entirely on zone design.
Nothing stops the zones from having a big sea/lake/rivers and therefore murloc filled beaches on it.

Hell, if anything floating islands having a rich and flowing water sources is almost a given, as that's the most common depiction of magic floating isles in fantasy.


We would be using airships instead then.
Like literally every other fantasy franchise that has air islands.

This is a non-issue.

You could also have the isle from the Black Flight beeing a real isle, as it makes sense for the Earthwarder - and after that the other zones would fly in a spiral form which would look dope as hell.

[Syegfryed]

The problem at this point with Dragon Isles is, if they’re not floating and just are another basic continent in the ocean, I’d be massively disappointed.

Dragon Isles, something where Dragons reside, and it’s not in the air? For a race that’s born to fly and whose individuals are usually massive? (Sure they can transform into other races, but why would dragons do that on their home island?)

plottwist: dragon isles are islands inside the ocean or in another elemental plane

that is definitely the lv of bullshit Danouser would pull to divert attention/expectations and think its a mastermind idea

[draugril]

plottwist: dragon isles are islands inside the ocean or in another elemental plane

that is definitely the lv of bullshit Danouser would pull to divert attention/expectations and think its a mastermind idea

They already laid the groundwork for the mundane with that cheesy Chromie story about choosing her "mortal" form. It made those forms important between the dragons themselves, not just for interacting with the mortal races.

[Syegfryed]

They already laid the groundwork for the mundane with that cheesy Chromie story about choosing her "mortal" form. It made those forms important between the dragons themselves, not just for interacting with the mortal races.

right, but i don't see the connection with what i said.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Errm, just spitballing here, TL;DR: I think you can do cool stuff with the setting, but there are some issues.

I think I would mix dragon isles' degree of otherworldy-ness a bit. I would make one (albeit somehwat smaller) zone where we arrive on the shore of an island with a massive tower in the middle. I would maybe even try to turn the "island shrouded in mist" thing a bit around and make it so that the island isn't uncloaked, like Pandaria and Mechagon, and instead you kind of get whisked away if you fullfill some critera (I guess Wrathion would lead us there with a McGuffin he found). Once you arrive you quest your way towards the tower which essentially would be revealed to be a transport gateway / bridge to the actual dragon isles high in the sky. So I would start it out mystical, yet "down to earth" and escalate it from there. I would make the actual landing point on the isles then a city like suramar, but abandoned and in disrepair, from that point out I would bit for bit let the player reclaim the city while adventuring out onto the islands and "claiming" them. During the adventure more and more congregations of the dragon flights would join us and reclaim their heritage (or something along those lines).

I guess the most difficult thing would be how to flavor the isles to each of the flights. How to make an isle for the black flight without just turning it into a mine with shiny stones and metals? How to make the blues not just another coldarra .. though I think a proper expansive snow biome was missing in the last 8 expansions. Make bronze just another desert? Pretty much the only asthetic that screams at me is the one of the reds with vermillion redoubt autum woods and the valshara like woods for the greens (practically the dream on Azeroth). Having them too diverse will just make them feel too disconnected though. Even if you bring them close together and let them overlap, it may look weird and disjointed.. I guess you could stagger them somewhat to create a kind of gradient. Think of them being connected by some river that ends in a waterfall down to the next isle. Something like the winter isle at the top where the river starts, then you go over into the forest of the reds, the jungle(?) of the greens, the desert of the bronze and the earth and lava zone of the blacks? Feels like I'd be introducing a subconcious hierarchy here though, which seems kinda the wrong thing to do.