Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Xilurm]

Legion and Void are the real heroes of the story who fight against the tyrannical facism of Order and Light.

Just because we have been brainfashed by the fascists it doesn't make us the good guys.

Isn't the void all about mind control?

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Besides Sargeras formed the Legion in direct response to the Void threat.

[Nymrohd]

Uhm its not like its a difficult story... I am sure the people know what they are talking about.

These comments usually come from people who are a fan and dont want him to die. The way the story could go in their eyes doesnt seem farfetched at all.

Its just not yet the time i would say.

Rather the inverse comments come from Horde stans who want him to die for parity. Just cause Blizzard villain batted people on one side, doesn't mean they need to do it for the other side (not to mention Sylvanas was ALWAYS a villain and Garrosh was a villain as early as Wrath prepatch).

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Not sure if sarcasm tbh.

It's not. We are living in a post truth society and we need to vilify anything that would conventionally be holy.

[Super Dickmann]

Turalyon should be begin the extreme jihad to add some meat to the toothless joke of a playable race he leads and to his post-Tides of Darkness wet blanket of a character, but it isn't going to happen.

[Xilurm]

I would join the Titans and their Order 9 times out of 10. At least they don't go around butchering everything in sight. And both them and their creations are shown to show compassion towards the races that escaped their "ordering" and have a free will.

[Nymrohd]

Turalyon should be begin the extreme jihad to add some meat to the toothless joke of a playable race he leads and to his post-Tides of Darkness wet blanket of a character, but it isn't going to happen.

What kind of meat? The rotten kind? Nah thanks. Nothing about Turalyon's behaviour suggests he would act in such a manner.
Now if Yrel showed up with a Naaru led crusade, he would likely align with them (much of the Alliance would). But the moment they did something problematic, he'd turn on them. Calia could be the way the Light approaches the Horde and I cannot see her going full jihad on people either. Heck if any character is likely to go Light crazy on either faction, that's Liadrin.

Which is great. It would provide a hook for the Alliance to interact with the Light faction but keep the focus on the Light, not the Alliance because as we've seen, faction stories don't end well. And if you keep pushing it, it's not for an interesting story, it's just "to get even".

[Super Dickmann]

What kind of meat? The rotten kind? Nah thanks. Nothing about Turalyon's behaviour suggests he would act in such a manner.
Now if Yrel showed up with a Naaru led crusade, he would likely align with them (much of the Alliance would). But the moment they did something problematic, he'd turn on them.

Turalyon's religious revelation at the end of Tides of Darkness after he was weak with the Light throughout the entire book because he couldn't square waging a war of extermination with another people or how anyone could be so cruel was squared by him realizing the orcs weren't part of Azeroth and ergo, they were outside the Light and fine to be destroyed. That is his premier paladin experience, it's also the peak of his character. He waged a total war with devils for thousands of years after this fact in a completely militant society run by the equivalent of an archangel who's views on straying from the path are pretty clear in Xe'ra.

Him and the Lightforged not just being okay with a demon killing their deity and telling them to nut up or his wife running around with a set of bandages powered by cosmic evil or teaming up with the same orcs he turned against in the first place now waging a war on humanity again after peace failed etc. etc. would take considerably fewer mental leaps than the opposite. It's not Turalyon and the Lightforged being zealots (if that's even the right term, since all of their positions, much like Yrel's, follow naturally and are in favor of the groups they represent) that's a leap of logic, it's the series of backsies and compromises that've made them (and the void elves for that matter) the tumorous dead weight that they are.

[Auxis]

World of Warcraft: Moonwalker - expansion confirmed.

We find Y'shaarj's body in a hole, being watched over by a Constellar who lives in a Titan tower.
And there is a sparkly golden worgen that just appears.

[Nymrohd]

I would join the Titans and their Order 9 times out of 10. At least they don't go around butchering everything in sight. And both them and their creations are shown to show compassion towards the races that escaped their "ordering" and have a free will.

People need to remind themselves that all the crap about Order we seem to be getting this expansion are NOT actually about the Titans OR related to orders given by creatures from the Plane of Order. They are largely about Odyn and the Keepers trying to interpret the will of the Titans. Imo they are far more a commentary on organized religion vs God than "Order sucks and wants you all to be mindcontrolled zombies"

[Jekyll]

extreme jihad.

You mean a Crusade?

[Lahis]

You mean a Crusade?

No , Magnamon's special move.

[Super Dickmann]

No , Magnamon's special move.

That's the one.

[Murlocos]

I'll cap off my thoughts on the Turalyon debate by pointing out how gutted and messy the Horde is now after getting whacked with the villain bat over and over again, to the point they just gave up on any kind of actual conclusion or consequences for BfA and just pretend it didn't happen now and everyone is friends after a timeskip where nothing happens. I don't know why anyone would want that same crap applied to the Alliance.

Though it does segue into the whole cosmic argument. The lore on the Titans was nuanced as is, we already know they were closer to scientists than gods when it came to benevolence. Do they really need to be a Shin Megami Tensei Law faction now where they're just the polar opposite evil of the Void and Fel? I think keeping the cosmic stuff in the backend works out better where we can speculate on how benevolent or malevolent these forces are, but don't have to be acquire the hard knowledge on it. We've known the Keepers are flawed individuals for ages now, no need to extrapolate it to the absolute worst extremes for the sake of balance or whatever. Some of the endgame revelations we've been getting just gives me the impression that the writers really want to do this whole cosmic war story though, and only begrudgingly return to Azeroth or smaller scale stories.

[Cheezits]

I think people are projecting a bit about what the writers want or don't want to do.

There's plenty of them that want to write about Ogres in Duskwood, I bet... but how do you do a small scale story like that without a world revamp? And as the centaurs have shown this expansion, how do you do certain race stories without getting bogged down by 20 years of old lore that gets very very specific? And if you wanted to write a small scale medieval focused expansion, are you sure you would get approval by the board of investors who want to sell a more "epic" expansion?

There's a lot more to consider than just "they don't want to do EK/Kalimdor". They remodeled the entire damn Alliance airship and COULDN'T EVEN USE IT, so there's definitely more going on that we don't know.

[Berkilak]

There's plenty of them that want to write about Ogres in Duskwood, I bet...

The cynic in me finds it difficult to believe that they'd know what Duskwood is, let alone whether or not there are Ogres in it.

[Super Dickmann]

I think keeping the cosmic stuff in the backend works out better where we can speculate on how benevolent or malevolent these forces are, but don't have to be acquire the hard knowledge on it. We've known the Keepers are flawed individuals for ages now, no need to extrapolate it to the absolute worst extremes for the sake of balance or whatever. Some of the endgame revelations we've been getting just gives me the impression that the writers really want to do this whole cosmic war story though, and only begrudgingly return to Azeroth or smaller scale stories.

I still find the whole outrage about the new Titan lore to be laughable given the prior lore on the Keepers' treatment of the dragons, notwithstanding everything regarding their constructed races or Algalon's gorillion destroyed worlds. Said lore being that they deliberately buffed the Aspects so that they could solve a prophesied endtimes caused by Deathwing defecting, something only possible, mind, because they were buffed in the first place. Then their reward for this (pointless) service was to render them all sterile and consign them to a slow death because they'd run their course and served a utility that wouldn't even be called for had they not been given the blessing.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Azurathel calls him a zealot upon meeting him and adds that one should be wary of zealots.

I will be thoroughly shocked if Turalyon doesn't end up villain in the Light expansion.

What could Azurathel possibly base this on he’s been awake for all of a day or so and knows nothing about the people of Azeroth or what they have been through.

All of Turalyon history points to him being the furthest thing from a zealot willing to make peace with the orcs, work with the void, and even let his angel get shattered with little to no retaliation.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Turalyon should be begin the extreme jihad to add some meat to the toothless joke of a playable race he leads and to his post-Tides of Darkness wet blanket of a character, but it isn't going to happen.

My honest hope is that he doesn't end up reduced to an antagonist, but instead serves as a permanent change in course for the Alliance—I think he has potential to be more than another antagonist in the seat for two expansions. I much prefer the idea of the Alliance shifting in a direction more akin to the one they had in WarCraft III, when they were a broadly-benevolent, but inwardly chauvinistic and authoritarian faction. It would lend them substantial moral depth without entirely transforming them into villains for two expansions before Anduin or some other bland goodie two-shoes returns and ruins the flavor.

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All of Turalyon history points to him being the furthest thing from a zealot willing to make peace with the orcs, work with the void, and even let his angel get shattered with little to no retaliation.

I like his characterization in working with the Dracthyr. There, he strikes me as a reasonable but flawed authority figure, not unnecessarily cruel yet simultaneously willing to make some heavy-handed or iffy decisions. I think this is the kind of Turalyon I want in charge of the Alliance—conservative, overbearing, but ultimately still well-meaning and reasonable.

[Makabreska]

I don't mean you in particular, but there are some people who have a huge headcanon about Turalyon being this evil zealot and tyrant, despite there being literally no evidence for this. I just can't imagine them going down this path with an old character to please a small section of the fanbase that has no basis in the actual story. In fact if I remember correctly Turalyon is usually the least tyrannical, between Alleria and Turalyon, based on the prequel book to Shadowlands.

This is getting ridiculous. There a small fraction of players who are still salty that Horde was spawning raid bosses for years (so they want payback), or they are annoyed with Alliance being bland (but their only solution is to make their leaders evul tyrants). So literally each time there is something going on less than goodie two-shoes (like Turalyon ordering to keep an eye on Dractyr in SW), they instantly screech "Alliance are evul tyrants!!! Siege of SW when?????".

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I like his characterization in working with the Dracthyr. There, he strikes me as a reasonable but flawed authority figure, not unnecessarily cruel yet simultaneously willing to make some heavy-handed or iffy decisions. I think this is the kind of Turalyon I want in charge of the Alliance—conservative, overbearing, but ultimately still well-meaning and reasonable.

There is zero iffyness or flaws in him watching Dracthyr. Check SW and dragons history.

[Super Dickmann]

My honest hope is that he doesn't end up reduced to an antagonist, but instead serves as a permanent change in course for the Alliance—I think he has potential to be more than another antagonist in the seat for two expansions. I much prefer the idea of the Alliance shifting in a direction more akin to the one they had in WarCraft III, when they were a broadly-benevolent, but inwardly chauvinistic and authoritarian faction. It would lend them substantial moral depth without entirely transforming them into villains for two expansions before Anduin or some other bland goodie two-shoes returns and ruins the flavor.

I agree completely, but don't see it happening without an overall shift in writing direction. His caution towards the Dracthyr makes perfect sense both in light of him being an experienced military leader and given the city's history with dragons, as would what I describe in my second post to Nymrohd. However, we're talking about the writing team that had to have Anduin be influenced by Old Gods to get him to punch Wrathion rather than say, Anduin being mad at the guy who led to multiple world wars and his dad's death. And just this expansion we've been told how bad Uther and Tyrande are for taking Arthas and Sylvanas's action against them and their homes personally.

Ideally, Turalyon and indeed the post-Anduin Alliance would pivot permanently to a more realpolitik and regional expansionism aspect, in their own distinct ways closer to the Vanilla Alliance. More likely is that he'll turn into a baddie to be replaced by a returning Anduin after having an expansion as the Alliance version of Garrosh, if they're lucky, and Sylvanas, if they're not. Most likely is neither of these things happening and Yrel getting the gig, which is at least flashy.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

There is zero iffyness or flaws in him watching Dracthyr. Check SW and dragons history.

I would say that it suggests a certain perturbing undercurrent, but he's definitely reasonable in doing so. You could make a point about this kind of being suggestive of a kind of profiling, but at the same time you're completely reasonable to want to keep an eye on shapeshifters of any kind, especially after shapeshifters already subverted your government and these shapeshifters have preexisting connections to the precursor of the subversive shapeshifter that came before. He's not being unreasonable, and that is exactly what makes me think the character is going in a good direction and hopefully won't be reduced to a loot pinata.

I do feel like there is a subtle and indescribable undercurrent that suggests a greater willingness to make heavy-handed decisions. Then again, it may just be the whiplash from Blanduin precluding even rudimentary moral complexity in the Alliance. Either way, I certainly don't think it's an evil decision, and I certainly don't think it condemns you to be a loot pinata.